The major problem with a CCW

[bear71]

I'm fortunate to live in a shall issue state, we have good programs and good education available as well as tons of friendly people willing to share experiences and firearms knowledge.

The problem is that anywhere, with the exception of your home, vehicle or dark alleys, are clearly posted "no firearms allowed" right on the front door!

This includes all the places where trouble may occur, liquor stores, banks, convenience stores, super markets, restaurants, bars. Granted someone drinking in a bar has no business carrying a loaded firearm, but alot of guys play pool or darts and drink cokes!

Is the answer simply: only frequent establishments that are not posted even if it means a longer drive in heavier traffic. I guess I'd rather do this than leave a firearm in the truck for a quick blast in for a pack of smokes.

Part of carrying is having the piece on you at all times so it beomes a part of you, like a wedding band for example, it's hard to do when you have to take it off everytime you want to run in to a neighborhood business for simple necessities.

How about some common sense tactics for carrying in heavily posted areas.

 

[Car Knocker]

Do the signs have force of law in your state? That is, are you actually committing a crime if you ignore them? Does state law actually prohibit carrying in banks, liquor stores, etc?

 

[psyopspec]

Which state are you describing? In ND, the signs do not carry the force of law and are rarely seen. Granted, I tend to avoid doing business with the few establishments that choose to post, but if I need to run into a bank that issued a check so I can cash it, I just shut my mouth on the politics of the signs, keep my firearm concealed, and take care of business.

 

[massnee]

Freedom loving Americans may be surprised by this but Massachusetts does not have any anti-carry signage. In Massachusetts the only place I cannot carry is on school property. In contrast, when I visited NC it was another story.

Another benefit about carrying in Mass is the fact that so few people carry that there is little danger about printing...no one would ever imagine that you would actually be carrying. However, if anyone ever saw your gun you would be in a heap load of trouble.

Everything else about this state is loathsome...

 

[bear71]

I believe state law suggests that carry is permissable anywhere and everywhere....however the state has granted businesses the right to post their signs which I believe then makes a carrier a trespasser and open for prosecution under trespassing laws.

I asked a few people including instructors, cops and business owners who suggested, "well yeah, just don't get discovered".

Being undiscovered is no problem at all, that's why we conceal, but then I kinda feel like the lawbreaker walking into these places. Alot of guys say "No harm...no foul."

I'd almost like to just flat out ask if carriers are ignoring these signs but don't want to incite problems for the board either, I'm a new poster.

If you need a firearm in a posted area and you use it, you've got problems I would imagine but then that falls under the "better to be judged by 12..."

Obviously it is not wise to carry in a court house or an airport (always posted), but a convenience store or a restaurant, that's different, isn't it?

 

[tank mechanic]

An ankle holster with a smaller firearm like a j-frame leaves such a small imprint that it is almost impossible for it to print enough for some one to take notice. I usually go this route when it is imperative that no one notice that I am carrying.

 

[bear71]

psyop,

I'm your neighbor to the east. You might know more about Minne carry than me, can you shed some light. Do you carry in Minne, you're a border guy.

 

[bear71]

tank -

It's not a conceal issue, 7 months out of the year I could conceal an MP5 with no problem under heavy flannels, parkas or Filson woolens, it's more of an issue with the many, many local businesses that have jumped on the posting bandwagon and whether or not to frequent those businesses.

The iffy part is that alot of people basically say, ignore the postings and keep it deep. It's almost a moral question.

 

[tank mechanic]

Is your town really small? Is it one of those things that a few people put signs up and other retailers thought they should do the same to safeguard from being the only store to allow armed robbers to come in I usually try to shop at stores that do allow carrying but sometimes it is not possible. I never feel good contributing to an anti gun establishment but sometimes there is no way around it. I try to make up for it by taking antis out shooting and converting them

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Being undiscovered is no problem at all, that's why we conceal, but then I kinda feel like the lawbreaker walking into these places. Alot of guys say "No harm...no foul."

I'd almost like to just flat out ask if carriers are ignoring these signs but don't want to incite problems for the board either, I'm a new poster.

If you need a firearm in a posted area and you use it, you've got problems I would imagine but then that falls under the "better to be judged by 12..."

Obviously it is not wise to carry in a court house or an airport (always posted), but a convenience store or a restaurant, that's different, isn't it?

There is a reason why another poster already asked you if the signs have the force of law in your state. It appears that you don't know, and the people you asked didn't tell you. Yeah, in most states a convenience store or a restaurant is different because it's illegal to carry in in a courthouse, a school, a federal facility, or the secured area of an airport.

However, unless your state's laws say different, a sign is just a piece of paper reminding you that the owner of the premises would prefer that you not carry in his/her place of business. Doing so is not against the law, so you can walk in while carrying and not be breaking the law. If you should be spotted, however, and the proprietor or an employee asks you to leave ... if you do not leave you are then guilty of criminal trespass and subject to arrest and prosecution.

The catch is that a few states DO specify in their laws that business owners may post. Some, such as Texas, have very specific requirements for what the sign must say, how big it must be, and what size and typeface of lettering must be used. Texans refer to these as "30.06" signs because (coincidently or not) that's the number of the statute. Any sign that doesn't fit the requirements might as well not exist.

Dunno what other states provide for signs, but I imagine there are a few. Some states have a rule about not carrying in any place that derives more than 50 percent of it's income from the sale of liquor. That's what people mean if you see a reference to a "51%" sign.

There's no real choice -- you MUST know what the law says in YOUR state. As an example, I have had two police officers tell me it is legal for me to transport a handgun to a shooting range without a carry permit.

It isn't. It's a felony offense in my state.

 

[DKSuddeth]

If you live in an area where most proprieters are scared to have lawful carriers in their establishment, there is an easy answer to this issue. Start your own business and cater to these lawful carriers. I, for one, can't think of an easier way to make your own business the best protected from robberies than specifically catering to lawfully armed citizens.

 

[jac714]

IANAL Bear, but being from Minnesota it amazes me that your instructor did not explain this in detail.

The sign has to take a specific form:

(Identity of Operator)
BANS GUNS ON THESE
PREMISES

It must be a large legible font on a contrasting background.

It must be posted at every entrance to the premise.

Even then you have not violated the law until asked to leave and you refuse.

If you do commit this crime you have committed a petty misdemeanor and subject to a $25 fine. The weapon is not subject to forfeiture.

This of course excludes the statutorially precluded places, schools, jails, airports etc...

I would advise you take a good look at the materials provided in your class, if nothing was provided I can point you to a good book on carrying in Minnesota.

 

[Deanimator]

The problem is that anywhere, with the exception of your home, vehicle or dark alleys, are clearly posted "no firearms allowed" right on the front door!

Not the case in Ohio, including a lot of grocery stores, banks, etc.

Ohioans for Concealed Carry has had a considerable degree of success in pressuring businesses to remove CCW restrictions where they are not mandated by law (bars, etc.).

 

[bear71]

Thanks for your post Blanca.

jac, are you from Minnesota as well?

"The sign has to take a specific form:

(Identity of Operator)
BANS GUNS ON THESE
PREMISES

It must be a large legible font on a contrasting background.

It must be posted at every entrance to the premise."

These were explained in detail at the course.

Even then you have not violated the law until asked to leave and you refuse.

If you do commit this crime you have committed a petty misdemeanor and subject to a $25 fine. The weapon is not subject to forfeiture.

This WAS NOT adequately explained so I appreciate the information.

"This of course excludes the statutorially precluded places, schools, jails, airports etc..."

This was explained with a simple "don't do it, ever". Makes sense to me.

"I would advise you take a good look at the materials provided in your class, if nothing was provided I can point you to a good book on carrying in Minnesota."

I have a copy of the book, it was not provided with the course though, secured it at Bill's G/S Range and secured a copy of the update as well. I have just gotten this book though. I was peeved to hear many people received a copy of the book with their fee for the course from other instructors.

Ultimately, I think the sponsors of the course I took were alright, average, not outstanding, and too much of the course time was spent at the range cycling through the 35-40 attendees rather than gritty classroom answers.
__________________

 

[psyopspec]

I don't carry in MN myself, just try to stay on my side of the river as much as possible. I know the signs have actually authority from friends who carry in the twin cities. Anything more than that, I recommend www.packing.org.

 

[bogie]

How to deal with "No CCW Welcome" signs...

Talk to the manager. Tell 'em that it's a stupid sign, that it won't stop criminals, that you can PROVE that you are not a criminal, and they just lost your business until it comes down.

In states which recently got the stuff passed, a lot of signs tend to go up. And they will eventually come down. When I had my chat with a local hardware/feed store, I explained that they had a sign, which meant that they didn't want my business, but Home Depot didn't have one, which meant that I was welcome there. If your grocer posts a sign, make sure you let them know that WalMart doesn't discriminate...

In the St. Louis area, the local departments and the STL County cops went and printed up a buncha signs. Then they told a LOT of local business owners that they HAD to put the signs up. And of course, the business owners don't wanna believe Joe Carrier over the -really bad comment about alleged public servants omitted so that I won't get a nasty PM from a moderator- police.

 

[crebralfix]

When you get a CCW LICENSE, you are agreeing to a CONTRACT. The terms of that contract are outlined in state law. If those "no firearms" signs have "the force of law" behind them, you have agreed to allow them to charge you with a crime and punish you for it.

Regardless of what the state thinks, you do have the right to carry a firearm concealed. It says so in the US Constitution (that pesky "bear arms" part). You have to DEMAND this right; however, most folks just go along with the program. Members of this forum will certainly do so. Most folks are invested in the system and it is in their interest (either directly or indirectly) to do so.

Whether or not you choose to obey your masters is your choice. They will use FORCE in order to get you to comply with their directives, "legal" or not.

 

[Phetro]

This includes all the places where trouble may occur, liquor stores, banks, convenience stores, super markets, restaurants, bars. Granted someone drinking in a bar has no business carrying a loaded firearm...

Who says? I've done it before--in a state that actually respects my right to do so--and nothing bad has ever come of it.

Be careful before you decide you know what's best for others to do. You'll become the very statist you seem to be against.

 

[jac714]

Yes I am in Minnesota, I have the book provided by Bill's and to be honest there is a much better alternative. Let me know and I will let you know how to get it if you wish.

Are you in the Cities?

If so let me know there is an active and getting more so group of people with permits, we meet monthly for a breakfast as well as other shooting related activities.

HAve a good one.

 

[kirkcdl]

"Sign???What sign?I'm sorry,I didn't see your sign,but I'll be happy to spend my money somewhere else.Thanks for letting me know about your sign,have a nice day...Your employee will put my items back for me,right?"

I've said that two times,both times very friendly with a smile,and I haven't been back to see if the signs are still there...

 

[phorvick]

Regarding MN law...it was said:
---
It must be a large legible font on a contrasting background.

It must be posted at every entrance to the premise."

These were explained in detail at the course.

Even then you have not violated the law until asked to leave and you refuse.

If you do commit this crime you have committed a petty misdemeanor and subject to a $25 fine. The weapon is not subject to forfeiture.

This WAS NOT adequately explained so I appreciate the information.

"This of course excludes the statutorially precluded places, schools, jails, airports etc..."
--

Just to clarify. It is not a large legible font, it must be Ariel font, minimum 1.5 inches tall. Sign itself must be a minimum of 187 sq inches; and posted at every entrance yes...but also every exit, even employee only and the loading docks.

Schools are not totally precluded (can carry with permission of the principal) and airports are not precluded in MN (just can't carry past security).

Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com

Oh, and as it was noted, MN and ND have no reciprocity. If you are a ND resident you can get a MN non-resident permit to cover MN, or a Utah Permit that is honored in both ND and MN; if you are a MN resident, the least hassle and quickest way to get carry coverage in ND is to get the New Hampshire permit. You can get the ND permit also of course, but N H is faster and less hassle to secure.

 

[tanksoldier]

In Colorado you're only trespassing if you're asked to leave and refuse. Many other states are this way, but some are not.

I rarely notice the signs myself.

I believe state law suggests that carry is permissable anywhere and everywhere....however the state has granted businesses the right to post their signs which I believe then makes a carrier a trespasser and open for prosecution under trespassing laws.

 

[jac714]

Paul, thanks for the clarification , I could not find the exact specifications for the sign when I initially replied.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Granted someone drinking in a bar has no business carrying a loaded firearm...

It's perfectly legal to carry openly or concealed in bars and liquor stores in Colorado. It's perfectly legal to drink while carrying, as long as one's blood-alcohol content is below .08%.

It's never been a problem. I doubt it ever will be.

 

[MechAg94]

In my original CHL class, when telling us the rules on where we could carry, he always qualified it with "...but then again, concealed is concealed...If it is concealed, no one knows you are carrying anyway." His thought was that you should spend more time make sure your weapon is truly concealed rather than worry about where you can carry.