The Maryland AWB of 2007

[chaim]

Chaim, they spend the first half of the bill defining Sale and Use separately.

Yes, so?

I wasn't speculating on the legal meaning of use (which you can find in any sales and use tax bill), I was speculating on the primary reasons for the language.

Isn't it bad enough for you to take action against regardless of how you interpret it? Do we need a lawyer to tell us that yet ANOTHER tax is a bad thing and a violation of our 2A Rights?

I refer you to the very first thing I said in this thread:

The bill is bad, but it is important that we do not exaggerate it. If we exaggerate the scope or language of a bill it will only discredit us with people who are undecided. It is especially important with anything you send to state legislators. If one part of our argument is exaggerated and demonstratably wrong, it only discredits our entire argument for those who are still unsure. The biggest thing we have going for us, especially in this very left-wing and anti-gun climate in MD, is we have the facts and the other side only has emotion on their side.

In my follow up post to one of your comments (the post you seem to be commenting on) I never imply that I support this bill in any way and further I repeated my reasoning for correcting your misunderstanding of the bill:

You are getting overly excited about the use tax part of the language. Using that as talking points with undecided people, and worse, using it with legislators, will help defeat our cause because once you demonstrate that you are wrong on one (major) part of your argument, your entire argument becomes suspect (basic human nature).

So, even with its real effects I oppose it. No, I don't need a lawyer to tell me that another infringement on the 2nd amendment is a bad thing.

 

[kingpin008]

**Is Confused**

 

[jpk1md]

Don't be confused...the only thing you really need to know is that the Md Legislature wants more money and wants to tax your guns to get it.

I think regardless of the nitty-gritty details all agree that:

1. We should stick together
2. We should OPPOSE HB 441

The hearing is on 3/14 in Annapolis @ 1PM and is in the Ways and Means Committee.

Here is a link to a thread at mdshooters.com that is ongoing on this topic.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=729

 

[chaim]

Nico and kingpin, you don't need to be confused. Armed with the actual definitions of the term "sales and use tax" (which is what all sales taxes are called in order to cover some non-sales transfers of property) it is actuallly one of the more straightforward bills I've read in a very long time. It will charge a 10% sales tax on any gun which the state defines as an "assault weapon". It is bad because it will drive up the prices of certain guns (bad for all of us) and because it might discourage some people from buying one to begin with. To some people, an extra $30-40 on the cheapest AKs, $70-120 on most ARs, and $150+ on many guns will either put it out of reach or cause them to decide "why bother". That is the idea (I think) of the authors of the bill, limit the sale of these guns. What it won't do- it will not impose a yearly tax on anyone. Be sure to address the real effects of the bill when you write your legislators, don't add in anything the bill doesn't already do as that will only discredit your other arguments for someone who is undecided (and especially for someone who might already be inclined to be against us on the issue).

 

[madmike]

It's confusing, unfair and egregious.

I think that's enough.

 

[kingpin008]

It's confusing, unfair and egregious.

I think that's enough.

What about fascist, unlawful and downright rude?

Or ridiculous, underhanded, and discriminatory.

Or..

I'll quit while I'm ahead.

 

[Specksmark]

HB 441

Chaim:

Does HB 441 give any finite definition of the specific firearms that will be disignated as Assault Weapons?

Specksmark:

 

[chaim]

Specksmark, here is what it says:

15(A) IN THIS SUBTITLE THE FOLLOWING WORDS HAVE THE MEANINGS
16 INDICATED.
17 (B) “ASSAULT WEAPON” MEANS:
18 (1) ANY OF THE FIREARMS, COPIES, OR DUPLICATES IN ANY
19 CALIBER OF THE FIREARMS, KNOWN AS:
20 (I) NORINCO, MITCHELL, AND POLY TECHNOLOGIES
21 AVTOMAT KALASHNIKOVS (ALL MODELS);
22 (II) ACTION ARMS ISRAELI MILITARY INDUSTRIES UZI AND
23 GALIL;
24 (III) BARETTA AR–70 (SC–70);
25 (IV) COLT AR–15;
26 (V) FABRIQUE NATIONALE FN/FAL, FN/LAR, AND FNC;

1 (VI) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9, AND M–1 12;
2 (VII) STEYR AUG; AND
3 (VIII) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9, AND TEC–22; OR
4 (2) ANY REVOLVING SHOTGUN, INCLUDING THE STREET
5 SWEEPER AND STRIKER 12.

So, no list of "evil features", just a list of guns and "copies or duplicates" of those guns. Without listing all the features it makes it still pretty much the "usual suspects", though how will they define copies or duplicates? Only guns that look like the listed guns (regardless of action), guns that use a similar action, only outright clones, what? So, it looks pretty straightforward in defining what guns are covered but there is room for an unscrupulous AG to make it effect as many guns as possible by simply redefining what they claim "copies or duplicates" mean (not to mention, I'm sure sometime between today and passage, should this bill pass, someone will add the "evil features" included in all other "assault weapons" laws to this bill).

 

[madmike]

Keep in mind that some judges have held that a BUCK FOLDING HUNTER is "substantially similar" to a switchblade because the blade locks open.

So a Ljungman is "substantially similar" to an AR15, and an M1A and Garand are "Substantially similar" to an AK47...

if you squint hard enough.

 

[Specksmark]

HB 441

Chaim:

Thanks for the info. Apparently there is no reference to semi auto handguns although it wouldn't shock anyone if the sponsors of the bill try to include hnandguns in this bill.

The same logic employed to craft this bill was probably borrowed from Doug Duncan's attempt to require all Montgomery County feline owners to build a fence around their properties to prevent their cats from running loose.

 

[Archangel]

The confusing, unfair, egregious, fascist, unlawful, rude, ridiculous, underhanded, and discriminatory aspects aside... (as if they weren't enough)

HB441 is also very poorly researched / written.

Just look at the definitions of "assault weapons" that it contains.

15(A) IN THIS SUBTITLE THE FOLLOWING WORDS HAVE THE MEANINGS
16 INDICATED.
17 (B) “ASSAULT WEAPON” MEANS:
18 (1) ANY OF THE FIREARMS, COPIES, OR DUPLICATES IN ANY
19 CALIBER OF THE FIREARMS, KNOWN AS:
20 (I) NORINCO, MITCHELL, AND POLY TECHNOLOGIES
21 AVTOMAT KALASHNIKOVS (ALL MODELS);
22 (II) ACTION ARMS ISRAELI MILITARY INDUSTRIES UZI AND
23 GALIL;
24 (III) BARETTA AR–70 (SC–70);
25 (IV) COLT AR–15;
26 (V) FABRIQUE NATIONALE FN/FAL, FN/LAR, AND FNC;

1 (VI) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9, AND M–1 12;
2 (VII) STEYR AUG; AND
3 (VIII) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9, AND TEC–22; OR
4 (2) ANY REVOLVING SHOTGUN, INCLUDING THE STREET
5 SWEEPER AND STRIKER 12.

The Uzi, M-10 / M11, and Tec 9 are already banned in MD. You can't buy them, but they want to tax the sale of them?

The street sweeper and striker 12 are destructive devices.

Beretta is mis-spelled.

There's a bunch of guns currently classified as assault weapons in MD law, and thus considered regulated firearms, that are not included in this bill.

 

[Archangel]

And on another note...

My "48 Hours Myth" paper posted earlier on this thread can now be considered a final draft. Feel free to copy and distribute.

 

[madmike]

So a Beretta AR70 would be legal, as it doesn't significantly resemble a Baretta AR70, that I am aware.

 

[jpk1md]

Archangel, thanks for all the work you did on dispelling the "Every 48 Hrs" Myth.

Its nice to be able to have something to swing back with other than the state stats which we all know shows little other than crimes are not committed with Rifles.

 

[jpk1md]

Separate Issue:

Has everyone sent e-mail/letters etc to the complete Judicial Committee thanking them for sitting through the hearing, reminding them that there were over 200 citizens that came out in opposition while there were less than 10 in favor and only ~1 was in opposition and NOT a boardmember etc of Ceasefire MD or the Brady Bunch...

Keep it nice and civil, stick to the facts but its important to do the follow-ups to keep it fresh in their minds now that all of the behind the scenes arm twisting has likely started.

O'Malley want this bill, so does the AG....make it clear that the PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL!.

 

[Specksmark]

Senate Bill 43

Does anyone know for certain that a vote has been taken on SB 43? Since there has been a silence on the topic does that meean that the proposed SB failed?

 

[kingpin008]

Yea - I'm kind of curious as to how long we'll have to wait? How long do they have to deal with the issue before they have to vote one way or the other?

 

[nico]

They have until the end of the session (not sure when that is) to vote on it. But, the fact that they haven't done so yet is a good sign.

 

[Guido2006]

Do they have to vote on it, or if they do nothing, will it die?

 

[nico]

They don't have to vote on it. Given that the chairman of the committee is anti-gun, he might think it'd look bad if the bill is defeated in a vote instead of left alone. It's pretty much up to him if it gets a vote or not afaik

 

[K-Romulus]

more info regarding the "tax"; NEW ammo tax filed

I compiled the email addresses for the House Ways & Means Committee to make it easy to cut and paste:

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

The current "Tax bill" is identical to the blatant Trojan bill that Garagiola filed back in 2004 after the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee killed his SCAWB:

http://mlis.state.md.us/2004rs/billfile/sb0927.htm
SENATE BILL 927
File Code: Taxes - Miscellaneous

Sponsored By: Senator Garagiola

Entitled: Assault Weapon User Fee

Synopsis:

Imposing a tax on the sale of an assault weapon in the State; establishing the rate of the assault weapon tax at 10% of the taxable price of the assault weapon; including the assault weapon tax under the administration of the sales and use tax; exempting from the tax sales of assault weapons to police forces and other governmental agencies; requiring assault weapons dealers to file specified returns; etc.

Bill text: http://mlis.state.md.us/pdf-documents/2004rs/bills/sb/sb0927f.pdf

Yesterday, another tax bill was filed to tax each round of "regulated firearm" ammo sold in MD, after requiring California-style microstamping:

http://mlis.state.md.us/2007RS/billfile/hb1393.htm

HOUSE BILL 1393
File Code: Public Safety

Sponsored By: Delegate Burns

Entitled: Regulated Firearms - Encoded Ammunition - Tax

Synopsis:

Authorizing a person to sell ammunition for a regulated firearm on or after January 1, 2008, only in accordance with the Act; requiring an ammunition manufacturer to encode ammunition for a regulated firearm in a specified way; requiring the Secretary of State Police beginning on January 1, 2008, to establish and maintain an encoded ammunition database; imposing a tax of 5 cents per round on the sale of encoded ammunition beginning on January 1, 2008; etc.

 

[madmike]

I suppose if you buy .223 instead of 5.56 NATO, because you're using it in your CZ hunting rifle, that wouldn't be "assault ammunition," right?

 

[alucard0822]

We are going to be buisy until at least 08, and probably indefinetely. I guess if you cannot outright ban them then tax them out of existence, but goes to show you they really have little actual knowledge of what they are trying to regulate, Im sure going after 308, 30-06, 223 that of course as they are used in SCAW's have no sporting purpose that ougta go over well with the Fudds. They might unite us afterall

 

[00-Guy]

My fear upon reading this is that the Bill will require the use of microstamped ammo for all "regulated" firearms. Not just a simple tax on ammo. IANAL

Yippee! Ballistic Fingerprinting Lives!

 

[Specksmark]

HB 1393

I suspect the State Police will oppose this bill since the burden of keeping records on millions of rounds of Ammunition will fall upon them. My understanding is that the S.P. are already displeased with the task of of keeping an inventory on spent cartridges from the sale of some new guns.:banghead: