El Tejon
Member
What about the .499 Tejon?
The New .50 FUCA Rifle. PRK Legal!
- Thread starter El Rojo
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cookhj
Member
i like blackrazor's idea. get some 20mm cases, and make a ".50 winchester short magnum" out of it. might end up being an even hotter round than the .50 BMG.
atek3
Member
I don't like the 'necking down 20mm' idea for a few reasons. 50 BMG is already overbore, 12.7x20mm would be INSANELY overbore, like 22 eargehshplittenloudenbooomer overbore (378 weatherby mag necked down to 224). I do however like the 20mm shortened considerably and necked down yeilding a "50 PPC" like case design. However that idea would be REALLY REALLY expensive compared to a wildcat that just involved pushing the shoulder back and trimming.
atek3
PS one problem with the 20 mm is the case head is so big the bolt thrust would be massive necessitating a massively heavy lug design.
atek3
PS one problem with the 20 mm is the case head is so big the bolt thrust would be massive necessitating a massively heavy lug design.
SDC
Member
SSK already has their ".50 Peacekeeper" and ".510 Whisper" cartridges (which I think would be a lot of fun; http://www.sskindustries.com/cartridges.htm ), but you could also use the existing .50 BAT (Battalion Anti-Tank) spotting-rifle cartridge without too much trouble; it's based on the .50 BMG case, only shorter, so you'd have a ready supply of brass at least.
FNFiveSeven
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atek3,
No man! Insane's the name of the game! You wanna get some attention?! Need something that makes the 50 look like a .22? Buy yourself a new 20-50 KM!!! Also, the thing is, that the action/bolt design has already been pretty much built for us, there is a single shot 20mm made by Lahti (sp?), so all you would need to do is change out the barrel/throat and that's it! The only expense then would be the dies for reloading.
No man! Insane's the name of the game! You wanna get some attention?! Need something that makes the 50 look like a .22? Buy yourself a new 20-50 KM!!! Also, the thing is, that the action/bolt design has already been pretty much built for us, there is a single shot 20mm made by Lahti (sp?), so all you would need to do is change out the barrel/throat and that's it! The only expense then would be the dies for reloading.
atek3
Member
would you be so kind as to buy me new barrels every 500 rounds ? pretty please
atek3
FNFiveSeven
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yeah...
good point... but 50's ain't exactly cheap, and neither are the people who would be interested in the 50 KM. Do you think it would wear out any faster than a 220 swift? What about a chrome lined/stellite bore? Just throwin' ideas out there, glad someone likes to play along.
good point... but 50's ain't exactly cheap, and neither are the people who would be interested in the 50 KM. Do you think it would wear out any faster than a 220 swift? What about a chrome lined/stellite bore? Just throwin' ideas out there, glad someone likes to play along.
DrDremel
Member
Make it a bigger round and call it the Mutha FUCA.
atek3
Member
Nice try, but chrome lined target rifle? I don't think so. I think it would be worse than the 220 swift.
atek3
FNFiveSeven
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huh?
FN's police/target/tactical .308 is chrome lined, is super accurate... it works great! What's the problem?
FN's police/target/tactical .308 is chrome lined, is super accurate... it works great! What's the problem?
atek3
Member
really... I didn't know that.
Hand_Rifle_Guy
Member
I am liking this plan!
My first preference would be to go with the Ackley Improved-type of set-up.This allows for use of existing bullets, cases, barrels and magazine dimensions, which would make the conversion nicely inexpensive, a neccessity since the market is pretty-much limited to Korny Kaliforny.
Additionally, the ability to run off-the-shelf BMG ammo is a major boost to viability of the concept. Remember, this is a PRK-only restriction, so it really doesn't concern the Federal-level BATFE at all. Cal-DOJ is who's in charge of this one, and they can only enforce the law as it's written, and when it comes time to establish what the caliber of a given gun is, it's what's stamped on the barrel that gets run through the paperwork, NOT what the chamber will actually accomodate.
There's precedent for this. There was a batch of those cheap derringers that come in a gazillion different configs but still cost uder $100. Most of 'em are .45 Colt/.410 shotshell, which can't be sold here in the PRK 'cuz they're sawed-off shotguns by our law. However, there was a batch of sxs 2-shots that were only marked (And paperworked.) .45 Colt. They were BORED with extra-long chambers, however. (Lots of free-bore is a good recoil reducer, you know.)
Nary a peep from Cal-DOJ about 'em. Never heard of any prosecuition, or even awareness of anything from them. The only contact they ever had with 'em was through the paperwork for the NICS and the PRK handgun registration provision, and all that said about these guns was that they were chambered for .45 Colt.
Evereyone knows how dangerous it is to put the wrong ammunition in a given gun stamped for something else. Nobody in their right mind would actually FIRE a .410 shotshell in one of these things just because it just happened to fit in the barrel, would they? Why, it's liable to blow up in yor hand, right? Just because it FITS doesn't mean it's SAFE...
...Even though it's safe in the same gun from the same maker when stamped with the appropriate caliber designation...
'Nuther point. The Federal-level "Over .50 caliber is classified as a Class III Destructive Device" provision APPLIES ONLY TO HANDGUNS.
That's why it's OK to have rifled 12-guage barrels for shotguns. Long guns can be chambered for any old thing you care to ream the barrel for and have the cajones to hold up against your shoulder and shoot. Look at the .577 Tyrannosaur, for instance. That caliber was designed to be the absolute BIGGEST case/bullet combination that could be reliably cycled through a large-ring Mauser reciever for the express purpose of being The Ultimate Dangerous Game Hunting Back-up Gun. I think the magazine of a rifle so chambered holds all of ONE additional round beyond what's in the chamber. (I might be wrong on this, and it'll hold 2. Not sure.)
Rifles in .577 Tyrannosaur are not classed as DD's. Niether are double guns chambered in .577, .600, or .700 Nitro Express. They might be expensive, but there's no additional hoops to jump through to get one.
They're LONG guns. At least until a criminal steals it and takes a hacksaw to the end of a $60,000 double gun to make it more "bad-a$$" and fit under a jacket so he can use it to hold-up the local "Stop & Rob" for $45 to get some drugs...
My first preference would be to go with the Ackley Improved-type of set-up.This allows for use of existing bullets, cases, barrels and magazine dimensions, which would make the conversion nicely inexpensive, a neccessity since the market is pretty-much limited to Korny Kaliforny.
Additionally, the ability to run off-the-shelf BMG ammo is a major boost to viability of the concept. Remember, this is a PRK-only restriction, so it really doesn't concern the Federal-level BATFE at all. Cal-DOJ is who's in charge of this one, and they can only enforce the law as it's written, and when it comes time to establish what the caliber of a given gun is, it's what's stamped on the barrel that gets run through the paperwork, NOT what the chamber will actually accomodate.
There's precedent for this. There was a batch of those cheap derringers that come in a gazillion different configs but still cost uder $100. Most of 'em are .45 Colt/.410 shotshell, which can't be sold here in the PRK 'cuz they're sawed-off shotguns by our law. However, there was a batch of sxs 2-shots that were only marked (And paperworked.) .45 Colt. They were BORED with extra-long chambers, however. (Lots of free-bore is a good recoil reducer, you know.)
Nary a peep from Cal-DOJ about 'em. Never heard of any prosecuition, or even awareness of anything from them. The only contact they ever had with 'em was through the paperwork for the NICS and the PRK handgun registration provision, and all that said about these guns was that they were chambered for .45 Colt.
Evereyone knows how dangerous it is to put the wrong ammunition in a given gun stamped for something else. Nobody in their right mind would actually FIRE a .410 shotshell in one of these things just because it just happened to fit in the barrel, would they? Why, it's liable to blow up in yor hand, right? Just because it FITS doesn't mean it's SAFE...
...Even though it's safe in the same gun from the same maker when stamped with the appropriate caliber designation...
'Nuther point. The Federal-level "Over .50 caliber is classified as a Class III Destructive Device" provision APPLIES ONLY TO HANDGUNS.
That's why it's OK to have rifled 12-guage barrels for shotguns. Long guns can be chambered for any old thing you care to ream the barrel for and have the cajones to hold up against your shoulder and shoot. Look at the .577 Tyrannosaur, for instance. That caliber was designed to be the absolute BIGGEST case/bullet combination that could be reliably cycled through a large-ring Mauser reciever for the express purpose of being The Ultimate Dangerous Game Hunting Back-up Gun. I think the magazine of a rifle so chambered holds all of ONE additional round beyond what's in the chamber. (I might be wrong on this, and it'll hold 2. Not sure.)
Rifles in .577 Tyrannosaur are not classed as DD's. Niether are double guns chambered in .577, .600, or .700 Nitro Express. They might be expensive, but there's no additional hoops to jump through to get one.
They're LONG guns. At least until a criminal steals it and takes a hacksaw to the end of a $60,000 double gun to make it more "bad-a$$" and fit under a jacket so he can use it to hold-up the local "Stop & Rob" for $45 to get some drugs...
atek3
Member
Not true! All the fancy rifles in .577, 600, 700 etc. meet the "sporting purpose exemption" within the GCA 68. The ATF can withdraw that from any caliber over 1/2 inch. Thats why 20mm is a destructive device and
14.5 mm JDJ isn't. the 14.5 has a DD exemption.
http://www.sskindustries.com/14.htm
atek3
only1asterisk
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Just Improving the cartridge isn't enough. It still meets the legal definition. If you aren't concerned about that, you may as well have a 50 BMG.
I think we can forget about necking down the 20mm, but the 50 Spotter and Russian 12.7 have some promise. Spotter cases run $.40 and AFAIK are no longer in production. I don't have a source for brass for the Russian round.
The DD is most certainly in effect for rifles. Certain cartridges have special exections based on "sporting purpose".
Bullets are easier to produce than cases, but cases can be reused. I don't think you could touch a new case this size for less than $4 or $5 a pop, with an minimum order of 100000 or so, but you can buy the equipment to produce your own bullets for few thousand.
The reason the 50 BMG is so popular is that it's the biggest thing you can load for $2. If you can't use surplus bullets and cases, then it isn't practical.
If it can't be converted back to 50 BMG without a new barrel, it's worthless outside CA.
David
I think we can forget about necking down the 20mm, but the 50 Spotter and Russian 12.7 have some promise. Spotter cases run $.40 and AFAIK are no longer in production. I don't have a source for brass for the Russian round.
The DD is most certainly in effect for rifles. Certain cartridges have special exections based on "sporting purpose".
Bullets are easier to produce than cases, but cases can be reused. I don't think you could touch a new case this size for less than $4 or $5 a pop, with an minimum order of 100000 or so, but you can buy the equipment to produce your own bullets for few thousand.
The reason the 50 BMG is so popular is that it's the biggest thing you can load for $2. If you can't use surplus bullets and cases, then it isn't practical.
If it can't be converted back to 50 BMG without a new barrel, it's worthless outside CA.
David
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Hand_Rifle_Guy
Member
Okay.
I stand corrected. Good on yer.
I wonder if I'm remembering a state-level iteration of that, then. Gotta pretty solid conviction that there's some sort of handgun-specific restriction that allows for 12-guage rifled barrels. Old thing, I wanna say '68 GCA, on account of the neccessity to make a change in calibers for the Gyrojet pistols. Their 12.7mm loads became illegal to run in handguns because they were over .500 inches in diameter, and that was ways back, for sure. That's consistent with the 14.7mm JDJ needing an exemption also, as J.D. Jones manufactures barrels for the T/C contender handgun.
There's no distinction I know of in the definition of 'long guns' between rifles and shotguns outside of hunting regulations in some states.
And when did 20mm become a DD? I thought the "sporting purposes" definitions only applied to restrictions on the IMPORTATION of guns, on the Federal level.
I dunno. I confess ignorance, as I'm not neccessarily up on the latest versions of Gubmint encroachment of rights out at the artillery level.
We oughta sponser us a competition match for all ther folks that have those Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifles. Since when did the Gubmint get to decide what's a sport and what's not? Establishing restrictions before the fact stifles the development of new types of competition. Of course, this is from the guy who wants to have a shootin' match with all SORTS of artillery. I've heard the U.S. 8" howitzer is one of the most accurate guns made out at range of like 25,000 yards...
I stand corrected. Good on yer.
I wonder if I'm remembering a state-level iteration of that, then. Gotta pretty solid conviction that there's some sort of handgun-specific restriction that allows for 12-guage rifled barrels. Old thing, I wanna say '68 GCA, on account of the neccessity to make a change in calibers for the Gyrojet pistols. Their 12.7mm loads became illegal to run in handguns because they were over .500 inches in diameter, and that was ways back, for sure. That's consistent with the 14.7mm JDJ needing an exemption also, as J.D. Jones manufactures barrels for the T/C contender handgun.
There's no distinction I know of in the definition of 'long guns' between rifles and shotguns outside of hunting regulations in some states.
And when did 20mm become a DD? I thought the "sporting purposes" definitions only applied to restrictions on the IMPORTATION of guns, on the Federal level.
I dunno. I confess ignorance, as I'm not neccessarily up on the latest versions of Gubmint encroachment of rights out at the artillery level.
We oughta sponser us a competition match for all ther folks that have those Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifles. Since when did the Gubmint get to decide what's a sport and what's not? Establishing restrictions before the fact stifles the development of new types of competition. Of course, this is from the guy who wants to have a shootin' match with all SORTS of artillery. I've heard the U.S. 8" howitzer is one of the most accurate guns made out at range of like 25,000 yards...
The_Antibubba
Member
Drop the ".50"
If we're going to rename it, let's call it the "12.7 LSP".
As for what the new cartridge should look like, for Kali purposes, it needs to be shorter than 5.54", and merely seating the bullet deeper won't be enough. I've never fired the BMG, so I don't know if this is truly a great round, but if it can be improved, here's our chance. Also, as for other markets, don't a lot of the European countries ban weapons that use a military round? If someone can create a viable .50 civilian round, maybe it will find a home overseas, too.
If we're going to rename it, let's call it the "12.7 LSP".
As for what the new cartridge should look like, for Kali purposes, it needs to be shorter than 5.54", and merely seating the bullet deeper won't be enough. I've never fired the BMG, so I don't know if this is truly a great round, but if it can be improved, here's our chance. Also, as for other markets, don't a lot of the European countries ban weapons that use a military round? If someone can create a viable .50 civilian round, maybe it will find a home overseas, too.
Hand_Rifle_Guy
Member
For reference purposes on this discussion, since I knew not of what I spoke.
Courtesy of Findlaw.com.
WHICH Secretary? General? Who is HE accountable too, that we may challenge his definitions?
Re: The bottom emphasis.
We set up a sponsored 20mm shootin' match. I go buy a Lahti which I fully intend to use for competition purposes. Says right there that the intent is defined by the owner, not the Secretary.
Elsewise, someone needs to produce a 20mm competition rifle. Then he can't touch it. Where's my machine shop?
I get such dangerous ideas...
Courtesy of Findlaw.com.
WHICH Secretary? General? Who is HE accountable too, that we may challenge his definitions?
Re: The bottom emphasis.
We set up a sponsored 20mm shootin' match. I go buy a Lahti which I fully intend to use for competition purposes. Says right there that the intent is defined by the owner, not the Secretary.
Elsewise, someone needs to produce a 20mm competition rifle. Then he can't touch it. Where's my machine shop?
I get such dangerous ideas...
FNFiveSeven
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Well...
I'm still all for the 20-50 KM, I think the only way to go is up, up, UP! With a chrome lined bore you could really get some useful barrel life, and throwing 750's at 4200 fps will really get some people going! That's over 25,000 ft-lbs of energy! YEE-HAW! We need a poll here after all the options have been laid out so that the best idea goes into production. With our combined strength I know we can make this a reality! Don't let this one get away.
I'm still all for the 20-50 KM, I think the only way to go is up, up, UP! With a chrome lined bore you could really get some useful barrel life, and throwing 750's at 4200 fps will really get some people going! That's over 25,000 ft-lbs of energy! YEE-HAW! We need a poll here after all the options have been laid out so that the best idea goes into production. With our combined strength I know we can make this a reality! Don't let this one get away.
atek3
Member
so we all run out and buy 'sporting lahti's' then when the gubbmint wants to crack down they say...not sporting, then we'd be ordered to turn over 5k destructive devices...no thanks.
atek3
atek3
Gordon
Member
Well the Barret will be moving to keep the HK91 & HK93 ect company at my Oregon residence. I can shoot it there (on the property) anyway
However enough is enough, this actually draws the line in the sand and if I could know when they would come get it, they could try! 
However enough is enough, this actually draws the line in the sand and if I could know when they would come get it, they could try! only1asterisk
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Prvi Partizan produces brass cased 12.7x107 ammunition. I don't know what primer they use (a huge consideration). The bullet diameter is listed as .5122" but dies and reamer would be custom jobs anyway so you could neck it down to .510".
I sent an e-mail to see if I can get my hands on some cases.
Does anyone have a 50 Spotter case handy to measure?
David
I sent an e-mail to see if I can get my hands on some cases.
Does anyone have a 50 Spotter case handy to measure?
David
50 Shooter
member
Here's a link that shows the spec's but it's in Spanish but it will give you all the info your looking for. http://www.municion.org/12_7/12_70x76.htm
only1asterisk
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50 Shooter,
Thanks, I now have both case and reamer specs. I'd still like to measure capacity, but I bet a model using 50 BMG head and wall thickness would come really close.
David
Thanks, I now have both case and reamer specs. I'd still like to measure capacity, but I bet a model using 50 BMG head and wall thickness would come really close.
David
Jay Kominek
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