The P320: your gun handling skills are the problem

[wally]

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

What part of this test is abusive?


I'm 67 years old, got my P320 to shoot steel plates, our club recently poured concrete slabs to shoot from which are great for recovering brass. Its not inconceivable that I could have a heart attack or stroke while shooting and drop the gun from about six feet high. Firing when dropped with an impact like this (which could be virtually identical as on the video) and possibly killing or injuring a bystander is just plain unacceptable to me and it should be to you!

In law enforcement use its easy to see many more potential causes of dropped guns. Note that the military contract guns do not appear to have the problem.

Seems these "amateurs" have proven that the "industry standard" drop tests are inadequate. Or are you claiming these guys are frauds like NBC using fireworks to ignite gas tanks on minor crashes to make a story?

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem.

No reason to have seat belts or airbags then, as all car crashes are ultimately driver incompetence.

 

[TomJ]

This article raises an interesting point in regards to the liability issue. If you knew or should have known about the drop issue, did not have the gun repaired and someone was killed or injured because you dropped it, in addition to living with the fact that you just injured or killed someone your potential liability is significant.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/08/robert-farago/police-departments-pulling-sig-p320-service/

 

[M1key]

I did dry fire the 320 at a GS earlier this year. I did not like the idea of that light of a trigger in a defensive weapon. The more I thought about it on the drive home, I wondered about NDs, ADs, etc as a result of the trigger. And now drop firing. Sig needs to fix...

M

 

[jmr40]

Any gun used in military or police work is subject to being dropped and abused in many ways. There are things that happen that would never be replicated at a firing range or in any range game. When this story 1st broke my initial reaction was to think it was being played up way out of proportion. I'm beginning to think the problem is much worse than initially reported.

Blame the problem on gun handling all you want, the facts are that in combat or life threatening situations bad things happen. Guns are dropped, thrown, used as clubs, soldiers and cops carrying them are involved in car and helicopter crashes and they will get banged around. They shouldn't fire until the trigger is pulled, no excuses.

Make no mistake, I'm not out to bash SIG. After looking at the gun and how well it performed I felt it was as good a choice as could have been made. I had high hopes for the gun and would have probably bought one eventually. But until this issue is resolved all contracts should be cancelled. And I'm both hopeful and optimistic that Sig will fix the issue.

 

[ritepath]

Let's see this for what it is.....Glockers are still sad their baby wasn't picked for the Uncle Sam contract, so there's not going to be an m4 style chart like all the colt boys used to harp about in the early AR craze. They can't point and say look at all the pretend junk to the right of the new Army Master...

Now they think they have all the ammo needed to point and say "see we told you the 320 was just another range toy like all the others."

I did notice one strange thing at the LGS today....320's under glass, not to be confused with pulled and nothing but 226's

 

[wally]

But until this issue is resolved all contracts should be cancelled. And I'm both hopeful and optimistic that Sig will fix the issue.

Again, so far it looks like the military contract guns are *not* affected by the problem. For police who've bought it (what is essentially the civilian version), its a "big deal" IMHO.

I like the way mine shoots a lot, especally the fact the trigger doesn't have a hinge or tab like the M&P, Glock, etc. I'd wondered how they made it muzzle up drop safe without such a dodad. Seems they didn't quite get it right.

I will certainly be sending mine back and will be seriously PO'd if they won't pay the shipping as its like $60 for a normal citizen to ship back a firearm, if they do it pre-paid 2nd day its <$10.
I'd gladly pay them the $10 to send me the pre-paid UPS/FedEx return shipping label.

 

[Old Dog]

Yet, in all the hoopla ... 1911 folks still love the original Series 70 platform and its wonderful trigger ... Oh -- wait -- it's not drop safe? When did we learn this???? And people still buy and carry them?

 

[Kano383]

Yet, in all the hoopla ... 1911 folks still love the original Series 70 platform and its wonderful trigger ... Oh -- wait -- it's not drop safe? When did we learn this???? And people still buy and carry them?

Just bought one, silly me...

OK, it has a lighter firing pin and a heavier firing pin spring, so I'd probably have to drop it straight down on the muzzle from a first floor window for it to fire. Living on the edge, are we...

 

[ATLDave]

Yet, in all the hoopla ... 1911 folks still love the original Series 70 platform and its wonderful trigger ... Oh -- wait -- it's not drop safe? When did we learn this???? And people still buy and carry them?

Do you understand the difference between a muzzle-up discharge (which is what the P320's trigger inertia issue makes possible) and a muzzle-down discharge (which is what firing-pin-block-less 1911 can suffer)? To make the issue similar, you'd need to deactivate the grip safety on the 1911 and perhaps knock down the half-cock notch on the hammer, and make sure not to replace the trigger shoe with a lightweight/skeletonized one. Then you'd be in the same ballpark.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I did dry fire the 320 at a GS earlier this year. I did not like the idea of that light of a trigger in a defensive weapon. The more I thought about it on the drive home, I wondered about NDs, ADs, etc as a result of the trigger. And now drop firing. Sig needs to fix...

See, this is why people are saying that most of the commotion is just SIG haters.

The trigger pull on the P320 is 7 pounds.

I mean, come on guys, at least Google this stuff first before posting... Because now you also think that Glock, S&W and Ruger have trigger pulls that are too light and need to be fixed

FFS people, get a grip.

 

[Fiv3r]

The trigger on the 320 feels lighter than it is due to the fact that it's not hinged nor does it have a blade. It's a smooth metal trigger with an even pull weight that feels right in the middle between a nice DA and a good SA. It's one of the reasons, I think, that so many shoot it so we'll.

That being said, it may be this lack tactile passive safety that is causing the issues if the trigger is allowed to travel due to inertia.

However, to say the trigger is light in comparison to the rest of the striker market would be incorrect.

 

[ATLDave]

The Sig P320 has a very nice trigger for a striker-fired gun. If anything, it's nicer in their X5, which apparently does not suffer (or suffers to a much reduced degree) from this drop safe thing.

I think it's important to acknowledge that designing a really nice trigger that is also safe is quite a bit harder in a striker-fired tilting-barrel gun than in a hammer-fired gun. Sig was taking on an inherently difficult engineering challenge by trying to make material improvements versus the state of the art triggers from Glock and S&W and Walther. Setbacks and unexpected problems are to be expected when making technical advances in difficult areas.

 

[murf]

someone needs to jam a wooden dowel between the back of the trigger and the trigger guard and run the drop test again. this would assure the problem is with the trigger and not something internal.

murf

 

[M1key]

See, this is why people are saying that most of the commotion is just SIG haters.

The trigger pull on the P320 is 7 pounds.

I mean, come on guys, at least Google this stuff first before posting... Because now you also think that Glock, S&W and Ruger have trigger pulls that are too light and need to be fixed

FFS people, get a grip.

QUOTE: "The serialized part of the P320 is what Sig calls the Fire Control Unit, or FCU. The design will allow for a range of trigger pulls, from 5.5 to 7.5 pounds in weight, by changing parts." Dec 25, 2014 Massad Ayoob

The specimen that I examined was too light for my liking. Get over yourself. As an instructor and armorer I would not recommend that weapon for my wife or daughter or allow the grandsons or granddaughters to shoot. New York 1 and New York 2 triggers were designed for a reason.

If you love your 320, fine. I don't.

M

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The specimen that I examined was too light for my liking.

If the specimen you examined wasn't broken or modified, it fell right in the middle of all the other striker fired semis on the market

And there is a great deal of irony in telling someone to get over themselves, in the same post that you declared that a gun right in the middle of the industry accepted norm is all sorts of wrong.

Glock standard is 5.5 pounds.

Want to rethink your standard

And I carry either an M&P or CZ Phantom at work, so this has nothing to do with being a Sig fan boy.

New York 1 and New York 2 triggers were designed for a reason.

Oh wow... holy hell.. someone is defending the NY1 trigger... well... Yup, I've seen it all now. Never mind, didn't realize...

I'm sorry..

 

[18DAI]

I had no idea so many people were dropping their guns! It would appear this occurs on a regular basis, for some. And here I thought that reholstering was the most dangerous part of owning a striker fired pistol.

Maybe some training in gun handling would be helpful to prevent all these dropped guns. Or maybe a different weapon system. Perhaps a bow and arrow!

 

[Yo Mama]

Let's see this for what it is.....Glockers are still sad their baby wasn't picked for the Uncle Sam contract, so there's not going to be an m4 style chart like all the colt boys used to harp about in the early AR craze. They can't point and say look at all the pretend junk to the right of the new Army Master...

Now they think they have all the ammo needed to point and say "see we told you the 320 was just another range toy like all the others."

I did notice one strange thing at the LGS today....320's under glass, not to be confused with pulled and nothing but 226's

I'm all for going back to the 1911

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I think a lot of armchair range shooters are getting it all wrong. They consistently insist that SIG has done wrong when the facts are open and out in the public.

SIG not only passed all industry drop testing standards, they added more. SIG is not being incompetent or bush league about any of it. THE DROP TEST VIDEO PRODUCERS ARE. They are performing abuse that has no support in the drop testing protocols, they are not firearms engineers, they are just video commandos jumping to conclusions for the youtube results. And they make MONEY on hits. It's to their advantage to sensationalize this.

Supporting them throwing guns onto concrete or hammering on them isn't High Road, neither is jumping to conclusions and smearing SIG.

Bottom line - if you drop your gun, you are the problem. I note very carefully that the PROFESSIONALS in the trade aren't the ones making videos or claims on line - other than to suggest that it's actually video rabble rousers and their fans who are really making the uproar.

Again - who literally is going to make money on this, to the detriment of SIG? Who took advantage of a very narrow window of opportunity to raise a non existent issue where SIG was already stockpiling parts and had production scheduled to halt in order to retro fit 500,000 guns for free?

Somebody saw time slipping away and took a page out of the political handbook - Never Let A Crisis Go To Waste.

You are being manipulated by the same media masters who aren't getting any money from politics in the off season. Supporting the witch hunt against SIG isn't High Road. They have gone above and beyond to fix an issue that has 4 of 500,000 guns reported.

More people have shot themselves in the leg with a Glock, yet Glock is not at fault and their trigger is perfectly safe? If you mishandle a SIG and it falls on the floor, tho, the public is in full torches and pitchforks mode blaming SIG.

I don't see how that is High Road. I see it as being one sided and blind to the facts. Mishandling firearms is the cause for either negligent discharge. Not accepting your responsibility as a gun handler and blaming others for your defective skills is the issue.

Stop avoiding responsibility and face up to it.

You are naive. If you were ever issued a firearm or if you had ever used a firearm anywhere besides the square range, you would understand the being dropped, banged into things, and generally abused is an unavoidable part of being a duty gun. Duty guns get banged around inside a humvee or squad car, slide and roll down and scratch and claw up the side of mountains, crawl through sand and mud, and subjected to all manner of abuse because life as a infantryman or patrol officer is difficult. Stuff happens. Are you insinuating that 100% of service members are incompetent and unsafe? Because every single service member has dropped or banged his service weapon into something, guaranteed.

Notice that Glock people aren't the ones bringing up Glock here? Only the SIG people keep bringing up Glocks. Look guys, Glocks have been shot out of cannons, dropped out of airplanes, dragged behind vehicles, shot with other guns, and otherwise made to endure some pretty ludicrous stuff. They are 100% drop proof. Any angle, any distance, any impact surface. So if you pull the trigger while you holster your Glock, that is your mistake. If a 7.62 round snaps past your ear and you hit the deck only to have your sidearm clatter out of your holster on to the deck and discharge, that is double-plus ungood and that is a mechanical failure that needs to be addressed.

SIG is addressing the issue. So again, what's the problem? O yeah we can't waste an opportunity to bash Glock because SIGs are malfunctioning....

I've never had an ND with my Glocks specifically because I do take responsibility.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Well said MTM

 

[jjones45]

My manual from my early 2016 p320c. We really need to read the manuals of our firearms more thoroughly. They told us these guns were not drop safe and nobody cared until now. I'm guilty of not reading the manuals of my firearms until I can't figure something out about it, which is kind of rare anymore. I'm no lawyer but I guess them putting this warning in the manual kind of takes them off the hook legally. They warned us.

 

[jjones45]

So these guns were originally designed to be carryied condition 3 then right? You guys hear that ball bouncing? It has sigs name all over it

 

[C0untZer0]

I had no idea so many people were dropping their guns! It would appear this occurs on a regular basis, for some. And here I thought that reholstering was the most dangerous part of owning a striker fired pistol.

Maybe some training in gun handling would be helpful to prevent all these dropped guns. Or maybe a different weapon system. Perhaps a bow and arrow!

I'm all for funding more police training, but training isn't going to cover getting shot in your shooting hand, or getting shot period, or any of the other myriad violent situations that police face that could lead to their service weapon hitting the ground.

Its really silly to keep suggesting that gun handling skills are the issue here.

 

[Old Dog]

Do you understand the difference between a muzzle-up discharge (which is what the P320's trigger inertia issue makes possible) and a muzzle-down discharge (which is what firing-pin-block-less 1911 can suffer)? To make the issue similar, you'd need to deactivate the grip safety on the 1911 and perhaps knock down the half-cock notch on the hammer, and make sure not to replace the trigger shoe with a lightweight/skeletonized one. Then you'd be in the same ballpark.

Ah, yes, yes I do understand the difference (I've been carrying handguns professionally only since 1979), thank you. Was simply trying to make light of all the hyperbole ... And even a muzzle-down discharge can be critically hazardous.

 

[98bluewave]

Yes, it actually was. Marketing materials from Sig said:

"...designed safety elements into every necessary feature on this pistol. From the trigger, to the striker and even the magazine, the P320 won’t fire unless you want it to."

https://www.sigsauer.com/edu/meet-the-p320/

Also from Sig's website:

Safety isn’t negotiable. The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol. And, while available as an option, you won’t need a tabbed trigger safety for your gun to be drop safe.

 

[jjones45]