The Perfect Fighting Revolver

[fireman 9731]

Nice piece! Is the front sight taller or shorter than factory? What I'm getting at is, does it shoot to point of aim?

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

In the video my point of aim as bullseye or center hold so I would say yes. I chose this front sight because it was as close to the original by my measurements.

 

[BSA1]

My take. For a fighting revolver, you should set back the barrel closer to the cylinder. This accomplishes two things. It reduces flash at night, and it increases velocity.

Do you have data to support your claims?

The average thickness of a piece of paper is .004". A business card is .008". So how much is velocity increased by a .001" at a time.

You mean that the flash from the B/C gap which is below the front and rear sights causes loss of night vision? It seems the big fireball exiting the muzzle of the gun is what cause loss of night vision.

What a tight barrel / cylinder gap DOES is INCREASE the chance of the cylinder dragging when the front of the cylinder gets dirty or fouled by debris such as being dropped in the dirt. Imho fighting handguns should have a B/C gap of at least .008" and I have some instructors and experts recommend as wide as .012".

I like a .008" b/c gap on my self-defense handguns.

 

[BSA1]

Have received a lot of questions already asking why didn't I have it converted to a round butt frame while I was at it. The square butt fits my hand better -- Hey what can I say I like a big butt

S&W makes grips that convert round butt to square butt but you probably already know that. I have large hands like yours but oddly enough find factory magna grips with a Tyler -Grip adapter is ideal on a square butt K-Frame.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Yes I am aware, I did not see the need to spend the fund to convert to round butt if I was just going to put conversion grips on it. -- Cheap lol

 

[Varminterror]

For a fighting revolver, you should set back the barrel closer to the cylinder. This accomplishes two things. It reduces flash at night, and it increases velocity.

The problem - however - in reducing your B/C gap in a fighting revolver, is reliability.

I've noted it's about a 1.5% increase in velocity per thousandths, so you're really not gaining much in going from an 8thou to a 4thou gap - bet a recipient won't be carrying a chronograph to decide whether he dies or not, based on a 6% difference in velocity.

On the other hand, I've been able to shoot revolvers until they were dirty enough to lock up with anything smaller than a 5thou gap, whereas I've never been able to seize a 6thou or larger revolver. At 5thou, it takes a LOT of powder to lock up. At 2-3thou, it doesn't take much at all. I set back barrels in my hunting revolvers to give me the best opportunity for precision and the highest velocity, but I would never run a tight gap on a "fighting revolver."

I see a couple of nice looking revolvers here, but have to ask a question. What exactly is a "fighting revolver" and how is that different from a average short-barreled/internal or bobbed hammer/ revolver of medium/large caliber? I always just assumed that my Model 640 was for defense while my Model 57 was for hunting.

"Fighting revolvers," aka "duty revolvers," are generally the middle ground for revolvers - a much loved, but often relatively limited-application zone for most folks. You're generally talking about mid or full sized .357mag frame, 4-6" barreled revolvers; something like a K-frame, L-frame, or 4" N-frame, or Six Series and GP100 size in the Rugers. A lot of guys prefer a DAO for this purpose, since it offers snag free operation, and most guys in a gunfight won't be thumbing the hammer anyway. Personally, I'd prefer a bobbed hammer, or at least a spurless DA/SA hammer with splines or checkering on the head to allow it to be thumbed. The regulations on later-era duty revolvers, especially in NYC, have contributed to this cultural preference for a DAO "fighting revolver." A J-frame like your 640 is too small to qualify as a "fighting revolver," as it's a small frame snubby, so it generally gets classed as a "Back Up Gun," or as a "defensive revolver," or "concealed carry revolver." The idea of a Duty Revolver or Fighting revolver is something you're going to hang on your hip to be ready for a gunfight, meaning you worry less about compactness, and worry more about your ability to control the revolver (full grip and extra weight) and about your ability to place shots on target at range (longer sight radius and extra velocity of a longer barrel). The N-frame 57, especially a 6", tends to be on the large size for a fighting revolver, but there are plenty of 4-5.5" N-frame models which guys would say fit the bill. Full length, full lug, N-frames and even larger Redhawks tend to be a bit too big to be wielded effectively in a gunfight, especially with a heavy 6"+ barrel out front. In other words - a "fighting revolver" or "Duty revolver" is generally a DAO, spurless, 4" full size 357mag... The L-686, K-19, K-66, K-10, GP100, etc are generally what guys think about, with a few larger creatures like the N-57, N-27's, N-929's making the cut, but typically in the shorter barrels. When you get up to a true full size for 44mag class of revolver, you've gone too far. When you get down to a snubby in a true 38spcl size frame, you've gone too far the other way.

 

[DDDWho]

Written on the box of my 686 Smith it says "Distinguished Combat Revolver"

 

[CraigC]

A very well conceived and well executed, tidy little package. I may have gotten a little more aggressive in slab-siding the heavy barrel and might've opted for Herrett's Detective stocks in a smooth wood.

I don't understand all the crap about the bobbed hammer. It's preferred on a carry gun and when your action is professionally tuned, there is little reason NOT to shoot DA.

My take. For a fighting revolver, you should set back the barrel closer to the cylinder. This accomplishes two things. It reduces flash at night, and it increases velocity.

Uh, what???

What exactly is a "fighting revolver" and how is that different from a average short-barreled/internal or bobbed hammer/ revolver of medium/large caliber?

A revolver optimized for gunfighting, as opposed to one optimized for concealed carry, which very often has too many compromises.

 

[Gordon]

About 28 years ago I set about to create my idea of the perfect fighting revolver. I had a couple 1917 Colts , one an as issued Postal Service gun in mint shape and one a 1917 production run military gun in lesser shape, both in .45 ACP with shouldered cylinders. I sent the lesser finish one to Cylinder and Slide with my ideas on the subject. It turned into a 2+ year project that cost almost $3000 in those days money. A Douglass air guaged 4" heavy barrel was fitted and a custom gold blade front sight machined in. The rear sight picture was squared up and opened slightly on sighting in for Ball ammo at 25 yards. An under shroud with custom ball detent front lock mechanism was fitted to a new crane as the old crane was a bit wonkie. The whole action was blue printed and polished with a 9 pound DA and a 2.5 pound SA , which is as light as 100% ignition of military primers would allow with moon clips.The cylinder was chamferd and lathe turned to index perfectly and BC gap set pretty tight at .003". When their work was completed and gun sighted in I had them ship to Colt in Hartford for 50% banknote engraving and Colt Royal Blue. THEN the gun was shipped to Roy Fishpaw for Exhibition grade French Walnut Gunfighter grips with a tracing of my hand and a check . I had a friend make the case which is stuffed with Ranch Products moon clips and the display Auto rim Cartridges which shoot very well in the gun. I have put less than 500 CAREFUL rounds thru it in 25 years and have a custom simple cross draw scabbard made for it to try to keep it's substantial bulk a handy size . This gun could probably not be duplicated today. It is capable of very fast DA work with full 230 grain loads, yes I placed very well in a regional pin match 20 years back Not quite ready to sell it, my Dr. son is really getting into guns and has some interest in it

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[Gordon]

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notice the Black Talon rounds from early 90s

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[Gordon]

Tried these in th early 2000s as ideal fighting revolvers, Scandium L frames and no holsters seemed like a good idea

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[Gordon]

Had a NYPD Gold Shield uncle who thought these were the "ultimate fighting revolvers" He carried the 4" Colt Police Positive Special with the old 200 grain Super Police load in the 40s thru early 60s with no complaints on effectiveness . He got the S&W 520 NYSP .357 from a major in SP , one of the first ones sampled to agency from S&W . He carried it for a short time in retirement before he passed (RIP ) from lung cancer in 1980 . This 520 has a sweet action, probably the best Nframe action I have and is dead on with 158 grain .357 ammo at 50 feet . Maybe that was the final fighting revolver.

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[gotboostvr]

That 520 is a gem!

That would qualify as a fightin' revolver for sure.
You don't see too many fixed sighted N frames.

 

[P5 Guy]

Written on the box of my 686 Smith it says "Distinguished Combat Revolver"

S&W 681 "Ultimate Combat Revolver"

 

[dbmjr1]

(Insert failed attempt to quote BSA1 here)
No, I don't have any hard data, just anecdotal. I could compare it to another Model 10 over the chronograph, but the data would be skewed by barrel length. Since I purchased the firearm this way, I can't offer any data from before the change, and even if I could, it would be skewed by the loss of three inches of barrel length. (This started life as a 6" Mod 10)

As far as reliability goes, I'll concede. You are correct. After about a hundred rounds of cast bullets the cylinder will lock up. It has happened to me. Clean the cylinder face and it's back in the fight.
No other revolver I own will lock up after a hundred rounds of cast. I own seven Model 10's, the other six won't lock up.
If I'm ever in a fight requiring a hundred rounds of revolver ammo, I'll be sure to use jacketed ammo.

Modern ammo designed for short barrels minimizes the big fireball out of the front, but I do see your point, and agree.

Looking at the OP's modifications, I wish I knew someone local who did hot bluing. I'd love to slabside the barrel in that fashion. I also like the tritium front sight.

 

[Rob1035]

In the video my point of aim as bullseye or center hold so I would say yes. I chose this front sight because it was as close to the original by my measurements.

Mr.Revolverguy, any update on this great piece? I'm looking forward toward to a review on your site!

 

[Gordon]

I hope your crystal ball is as clear as you think it is, and that everything will work out exactly as you envisage.
cheers

yeah like engaging the guy with a rifle that has you pinned down from 50+ yards
.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Mr.Revolverguy, any update on this great piece? I'm looking forward toward to a review on your site!

Rob is there something specifically you wish to know that may not be in the video?

 

[Rexster]

Nicely-done custom sixgun!

I, too, like squared-butt S&W K/L-Frame revolvers, preferring squared to round. Both are OK, but the squared-butt grip frame seems to point better in my hands, and to be more stable while shooting quickly. (With J-Snubs, round works well for me.)

I tend to prefer 4" barrels on medium-frame revolvers, and 3" barrels on smaller-frame revolvers. This is, of course, personal preference; not trying to convince or convert anyone. I find 4" no more difficult to conceal than 3".

As for hammer spurs, this is another matter of personal preference. I have revolvers with normally-spurred hammers, with spur-less DAO hammers, and with spur-less hammers that can be cocked. (I am perfectly aware of the Alvarez case, and have no argument with those who choose DAO becaue of that incident.)

FWIW, if a bad guy with a rifle were 50 yards away, I would not necessarily feel a need to cock a hammer*. Unless perhaps when shooting from a very steady sandbag-like rest, I am not less accurate when shooting DA, assuming a mechanically-smooth DA trigger action. I made a serious commitment to DA skill development in the Eighties and Nineties, originally because I was mandated to use only DA revolvers, on and off the clock, from 17 March 1984 to 17 March 1985, while working my rookie year of patrol on the mean streets of Houston, Texas, which at that time was vying for the title of Murder Capital of the USA. Having started hand-gunning with a 1911, I had thought revolvers were quaint, but it behooved me to learn six-gunning, so I did. I could switch to auto pistols after that first year, but had learned to love revolvers, and largely carried duty sixguns until 1997 in my duty holsters, plus, as recently as 2006, continued to bring a cased 4" GP100 to work with me, for special tactical situations.

*My current limitation is my vision, which is not so good, anymore.

 

[Gordon]

About 28 years ago I set about to create my idea of the perfect fighting revolver. I had a couple 1917 Colts , one an as issued Postal Service gun in mint shape and one a 1917 production run military gun in lesser shape, both in .45 ACP with shouldered cylinders. I sent the lesser finish one to Cylinder and Slide with my ideas on the subject. It turned into a 2+ year project that cost almost $3000 in those days money. A Douglass air guaged 4" heavy barrel was fitted and a custom gold blade front sight machined in. The rear sight picture was squared up and opened slightly on sighting in for Ball ammo at 25 yards. An under shroud with custom ball detent front lock mechanism was fitted to a new crane as the old crane was a bit wonkie. The whole action was blue printed and polished with a 9 pound DA and a 2.5 pound SA , which is as light as 100% ignition of military primers would allow with moon clips.The cylinder was chamferd and lathe turned to index perfectly and BC gap set pretty tight at .003". When their work was completed and gun sighted in I had them ship to Colt in Hartford for 50% banknote engraving and Colt Royal Blue. THEN the gun was shipped to Roy Fishpaw for Exhibition grade French Walnut Gunfighter grips with a tracing of my hand and a check . I had a friend make the case which is stuffed with Ranch Products moon clips and the display Auto rim Cartridges which shoot very well in the gun. I have put less than 500 CAREFUL rounds thru it in 25 years and have a custom simple cross draw scabbard made for it to try to keep it's substantial bulk a handy size . This gun could probably not be duplicated today. It is capable of very fast DA work with full 230 grain loads, yes I placed very well in a regional pin match 20 years back Not quite ready to sell it, my Dr. son is really getting into guns and has some interest in it

[/URL]

here is a picture, the others were scrambled when someone tried to hack into my photobucket

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

That 1917 is super neat! I have a 1917 S&W cut to 3 3/4" but it is not nearly as pretty - I did put a good front sight on it and had it bead blasted and blued. The other S&W is a model 28 I converted to .45 Colt (it has a spare .45 ACP cyliinder). Jim

 

[Jagdmatch]

Nice post. Before we had our handguns taken away my best revolver was a S&W mod 13, round butt 3 inch. Probably ex police with a boned hammer and thinned out grips. Trigger work and smooth trigger helped the double action. My work carry was a 2 inch model 10 until Glocks arrived on the scene.
Practice was the key to passing the classification shoot, 98% required, to 25 metres. Now I spend my time getting kids to be able to shoot glocks to a 70% standard most of whom cannot focus on the front sight at any distance because their eyes are set up for mobile screens!
Best fighting revolver? Colt New service and a pocket full of half moon clips. Shoot it single handed and have a commando knife in the other hand! Retro John Wick

 

[stiab]

Similar to what the FBI issued a while back a 3 inch barreled K frame 357. Theirs was blued steel...

 

[Coal Dragger]

Manurhin MR73.