The Phoenix XLV

[MachIVshooter]

In today's market, what would you guys be willing to shell out for a serviceable 7" long .45 pistol can weighing under 10 ounces including the piston? The package will be the suppressor, end cap wrench and one piston in a box.

Meet the Phoenix XLV, a design I've decided to move forward with beyond prototyping. Still in natural finish here, that will be an option, as will cerakoting. Being a stacked baffle can, I'm not sure I wanna offer flame anodizing. Cool as it looks, it distorts the tube a little, which isn't a big deal with the monocores, but would make baffle removal a pain on these.







Gr. 9 titanium housing, 17-4 stainless heat treated piston housing, rear cap & blast baffle, the rest of the baffles and front cap are 7075-T651 aluminum.

It's quiet, has a nice tone, and upsets the balance less than any other .45 can I've used yet. I still don't have a dB meter, but my ears comparing it to production cans tell me it's running about 126-127 dB with 9mm subs and about 130 with .45 ball ammo.

I know it's hard to get excited about cans without hearing them and using them on a weapon, but any feedback is appreciated!

 

[adcoch1]

I like the simple look, the size and weight. Have you done testing on carbine length barrels? Off the top of my head I'd give $600-650 for a ceracoated one. Haven't looked at pistol cans in a while and my pricing may be way off. Looks good though.

 

[Havok7416]

While I am far from an expert on this subject, I would have a hard time setting a price on your can. I will say that generally the cheaper you offer it under other similar offerings, the more inclined I am to consider it. I am a realist though and I do understand production costs and whatnot.

However a big consideration for me is posted db numbers. I realize the standards can vary but having a number gives me something concrete to compare to. Videos also help with this a little.

It certainly is pleasing from an aesthetic point of view. Kind of an aside, but something that popped in my head today: would it be possible to thread the "muzzle" end of the can for a muzzle device (not a can)?

 

[MachIVshooter]

I like the simple look, the size and weight. Have you done testing on carbine length barrels? Off the top of my head I'd give $600-650 for a ceracoated one. Haven't looked at pistol cans in a while and my pricing may be way off. Looks good though.

Very little carbine testing, since it's really designed to hang on a pistol with the very light weight. Of course, I could make a direct thread carbine version even lighter; the all stainless recoil booster assembly is about half the weight.

As with any can, a lot of sub loads go super in a carbine barrel, too, so the benefits of using pistol calibers are kinda lost unless you handload for it or do an integral with barrel porting that drops the velocity.

Price wise, pistol cans are kind of all over the map, but decent ones from the big boys tend to run in the $550-$800 range. Truthfully, you're right about what I was thinking. Something like $639 retail, ~$550 in my pocket. Well, not quite, as I do have to sub the Cerakoting, and I pay a friend of mine with a water jet to punch out the 5052 aluminum wrenches (but that's only $7/ea). I do think there may be some demand for natural Ti finish, especially with stainless guns. Titanium has such a beautiful natural lustre, is pretty scratch resistant, and doesn't corrode.

At this time, I'm still making these by hand on manual machines, so production numbers will be very low and profit margins mean that they're relegated to filling down time, when I'm not making $70-$100 per hour real time gunsmithing or wrenching. These Phoenix cans take about 12 hours each with piston. I even have to partially make the springs, as the nearest size I could find to what I need has to be cut, the ends flattened, and the ID opened up .020". The booster is pretty complex from a machining standpoint, too. lots of operations:

It certainly is pleasing from an aesthetic point of view. Kind of an aside, but something that popped in my head today: would it be possible to thread the "muzzle" end of the can for a muzzle device (not a can)?

I certainly could. Can't say I've ever had anyone ask that before, but one of the things I want to be doing is custom cans. What would you want to thread onto the front of a suppressor?

 

[MachIVshooter]

I also have a 9mm version of it, the Phoenix IX, which has the same external dimensions, just a 9mm bore. So it's a touch quieter with 9mm, but since most people go for flexibility, I'm focusing on the .45 cal version.

The end cap on this one is what the .45 cals will look like from here. A little thicker, beveled, and with a more pronounced counterbore.





That said, I may tinker with a 1-1/4" diameter 9mm variant. That would offer minimal interference with sights, especially low sights like the Beretta 92.

 

[adcoch1]

I also have a 9mm version of it, the Phoenix IX, which has the same external dimensions, just a 9mm bore. So it's a touch quieter with 9mm, but since most people go for flexibility, I'm focusing on the .45 cal version.

The end cap on this one is what the .45 cals will look like from here. A little thicker, beveled, and with a more pronounced counterbore.

View attachment 779032

View attachment 779033

That said, I may tinker with a 1-1/4" diameter 9mm variant. That would offer minimal interference with sights, especially low sights like the Beretta 92.

That looks amazing on the Berretta, you know, one of those s&w 5906 autos ( guess on the model no) in stainless would look incredible with one of these on it! Yeah, the more I think about it $650 would be a deal for a fine suppressor like that, even in natural finish.

 

[Nuclear]

If I didn't already have 45 caliber and 9mm silencers, I'd definitely be interested. It is hard to give you a price in this market, and I bought both of mine on sale well before the most recent elections. But I like the look, even if I'd prefer a surface treatment (not ceracoating) of some kind.

 

[pdsmith505]

Consider
SilencerCo Octane 9: 7.5" long, 10.8 oz, $780 after buying the (not included) piston (http://www.capitolarmory.com/silencerco-octane-9-hd2-pistol-suppressor.html)
SilencerCo Octane 45K: 6.85" long, 9.4 oz, $750 after buying the (not included) piston (http://www.capitolarmory.com/silencerco-octane-k-45-suppressor.html)

Assuming it performs the same-ish, you are talking about selling a Ti can with similar specs as Al+SS cans for $100 less. That's a screaming deal to me.

 

[Havok7416]

Very little carbine testing assembly is about half the weight.

As with any can, a lot of sub loads go super in a carbine barrel, too, so the benefits of using pistol calibers are kinda lost unless you handload for it or do an integral with barrel porting that drops the velocity.

Price wise, pistol cans are kind of all over the map, but decent ones from the big boys tend to run in the $550-$800 range. Truthfully, you're right about what I was thinking. Something like $639 retail, ~$550 in my pocket. Well, not quite, as I do have to sub the Cerakoting, and I pay a friend of mine with a water jet to punch out the 5052 aluminum wrenches (but that's only $7/ea). I do think there may be some demand for natural Ti finish, especially with stainless guns. Titanium has such a beautiful natural lustre, is pretty scratch resistant, and doesn't corrode.

At this time, I'm still making these by hand on manual machines, so production numbers will be very low and profit margins mean that they're relegated to filling down time, when I'm not making $70-$100 per hour real time gunsmithing or wrenching. These Phoenix cans take about 12 hours each with piston. I even have to partially make the springs, as the nearest size I could find to what I need has to be cut, the ends flattened, and the ID opened up .020". The booster is pretty complex from a machining standpoint, too. lots of operations:

View attachment 779026



I certainly could. Can't say I've ever had anyone ask that before, but one of the things I want to be doing is custom cans. What would you want to thread onto the front of a suppressor?

It's an oddball idea and I'm not even sure it would work, but I got a harebrained idea that I might be able to mount a linear compensator on the front end for further noise reduction. It might not work or maybe someone's already tried it I don't know.

 

[Gtscotty]

That's a good looking can. Like pdsmith505 wrote, the Octanes run in the mid $700s once you get a booster, the Griffin Revolution is right around $700 with piston as well. The Cosmic runs well over $800 with a booster, but has a SS monocore, titanium tube and is rated for calibers up to .458 SOCOM and .45-70.

I may not be representative of the market as a whole, but what I look for in a .45 can is that it can be safely run on carbines at least up to full power .44 mag, extra points for being able to handle something like .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, etc. Tri-lug mounts seem to be the way of the future for carbines as well.

I don't know what the legality of the situation would be, but it might be beneficial to have a can design that could match up with adapters and mounts from one of the big dogs like SiCo or Griffin (maybe even SDTA on the cheaper end).

 

[MachIVshooter]

one of those s&w 5906 autos ( guess on the model no) in stainless would look incredible with one of these on it!

It would, but alas, the goofy barrel profile of the 5906 means massive modification to the slide in order to make a threaded adapter. I may pick up another 5906 to do that one day, but I'm not gonna do it to my near mint condition one. I did buy a 4506 barrel and make an adapter for my 4516, though:

It's an oddball idea and I'm not even sure it would work, but I got a harebrained idea that I might be able to mount a linear compensator on the front end for further noise reduction. It might not work or maybe someone's already tried it I don't know.

I don't think it would have any effect besides adding length. You'd be way better off to just opt for a 2" longer can. I could make a 10-12" long pistol can that would be silly quiet, but most people like a balance found with 6.5-8" long suppressors. They just get unwieldy much past that. I do have 9" and 10" long rifle cans. The 10" is my ultralight (12.5 ounces) and impressively quiet on my .25-06. Can't handle rapid fire being mostly aluminum with integral Ti brake and thin (.028") Ti sleeve, but I built it as a hunting can.

I may not be representative of the market as a whole, but what I look for in a .45 can is that it can be safely run on carbines at least up to full power .44 mag, extra points for being able to handle something like .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, etc. Tri-lug mounts seem to be the way of the future for carbines as well.

That's more along the lines of the Hybrid. There's really no way I could make a can this light that would handle the heat and pressure of magnum pistol and big bore rifle rounds. I'd need to go at least 50% thicker on the housing and use all SS or Ti for baffles, putting us into the 15-18 ounce range and at a higher price due to material cost and machining time of SS or Ti baffles. I pay about $12/foot for 1.5" 7075-T651 round bar; 1.5" 17-4 is about $25/foot after shipping, and 6/4 Ti comes in around $80/foot. Consider that a 6" long stack of 10 cone baffles in a 1.5" OD can gobbles up about 18" of stock, using Ti gets spendy real quick.

I don't know what the legality of the situation would be, but it might be beneficial to have a can design that could match up with adapters and mounts from one of the big dogs like SiCo or Griffin (maybe even SDTA on the cheaper end).

I've been thinking about that. Making taper lock brakes and pistons isn't too bad, but the geometry of tri-lug and QD mounts are an SOB on manual machines. It requires complex dedicated fixtures and expensive set-ups to cut any kind of helix, and doing stuff like the ratchet teeth on QD mounts is extremely tedious.

I do have a CNC mill, but it's tiny. It's a Proxxon MF70, which is what I use for the text engraving. The whole mill with stepper motors weighs about 20 pounds. lol. It's perfect for the engraving, though, as it will wind those little .020" cutters up to 20,000 RPM, allowing me to make clean characters .075" tall and .007" deep. Thought about a laser, but unless you can afford the powerful high end ones, they're stupid slow and the results are mediocre. I can do my engravings in Ti in about 20-25 minutes. Would be faster if I had 4th axis, but I have to manually rotate round objects for each line of text. Still, my buddy's $25,000 20 watt Epilogue laser takes well over an hour to do the same text to the same depth.

 

[Havok7416]

I think it would be something I would really consider for a carbine. With the light weight it's very intriguing to me.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Aside from engraving, the first two production Phoenix XLV cans I finished up today. There are some subtle changes from what you all see in the first photo. The only outward difference was my election to make the front cap out of heat treated 17-4 instead of 7075-T651. Two reasons: The primary reason is durability, not just for the wrench removing & reinstalling, but also the threads, since they're so fine (36 pitch). I decided the likelihood of cross threading the softer aluminum into the Ti housings was a little too high. The other reason is simply aesthetics; in natural finish, the color of treated 17-4 is just plain pretty, IMO, especially against the Ti. This change did come with a .7 ounce weight penalty, so the Phoenix XLV comes in at 9.0 ounces without piston, 10.5 ounces with piston installed.

The other changes were internal. You can see the booster assemblies above, which differ slightly from the prototype. The major change on this one was numbering of the baffles and index tabs. On the prototype, I just lined up the baffle notches with my eyes, and the baffles went in any order. The production ones will index, and since the cones get progressively thinner from .050" at the rear to .030" at the front, the numbering is neccesary.





I spent quite a bit of time making a pretty slick fixture for holding and indexing the baffles. It's multi-function, and I made it to work with both cone and K baffles (the 9mm Phoenix IX uses K baffles, but cones were quieter in the .45).



The halfs have guide pins, and there are other pins to locate various height disc inserts, and yet another pin to index the baffle notches so the tabs on the front are perfectly aligned to them. It also sets my angle for drilling the K baffle ports.



The end caps are about as minimal on material as can be



And here is one assembled with the other about to be



And remember, guys, I'm making these parts on a 17x60 engine lathe that is nearly 100 years old! Of course, I went through it and upgraded many things, but still pretty cool, I think

 

[Havok7416]

That's very nice indeed. Now I just have to get everything setup...

 

[adcoch1]

Aside from engraving, the first two production Phoenix XLV cans I finished up today. There are some subtle changes from what you all see in the first photo. The only outward difference was my election to make the front cap out of heat treated 17-4 instead of 7075-T651. Two reasons: The primary reason is durability, not just for the wrench removing & reinstalling, but also the threads, since they're so fine (36 pitch). I decided the likelihood of cross threading the softer aluminum into the Ti housings was a little too high. The other reason is simply aesthetics; in natural finish, the color of treated 17-4 is just plain pretty, IMO, especially against the Ti. This change did come with a .7 ounce weight penalty, so the Phoenix XLV comes in at 9.0 ounces without piston, 10.5 ounces with piston installed.

The other changes were internal. You can see the booster assemblies above, which differ slightly from the prototype. The major change on this one was numbering of the baffles and index tabs. On the prototype, I just lined up the baffle notches with my eyes, and the baffles went in any order. The production ones will index, and since the cones get progressively thinner from .050" at the rear to .030" at the front, the numbering is neccesary.

View attachment 779236

View attachment 779238

I spent quite a bit of time making a pretty slick fixture for holding and indexing the baffles. It's multi-function, and I made it to work with both cone and K baffles (the 9mm Phoenix IX uses K baffles, but cones were quieter in the .45).

View attachment 779239

The halfs have guide pins, and there are other pins to locate various height disc inserts, and yet another pin to index the baffle notches so the tabs on the front are perfectly aligned to them. It also sets my angle for drilling the K baffle ports.

View attachment 779240

The end caps are about as minimal on material as can be

View attachment 779237

And here is one assembled with the other about to be

View attachment 779241

And remember, guys, I'm making these parts on a 17x60 engine lathe that is nearly 100 years old! Of course, I went through it and upgraded many things, but still pretty cool, I think

That is awesome...

 

[MachIVshooter]

Finally had a minute during daytime to snap a couple photos in good natural lighting.





And these are the pistons. Not vastly different from many others, but more bearing surface than SiCo, Rugged, AAC, etc. That style of piston with the .995" diameter 10 point sprocket shape will work in my cans, though. Mine would work in some others, depends on whether they use a 3 point tab system or pins/dimples at the bottom. The Osprey, for example, uses 3 point tabs, and can use my pistons. The Hybrid is the other system and cannot.

I will be offering standard pistons that extend 1/4" behind the suppressor for guide rod clearance, and a "shorty" for 1911s, Hi Powers, etc, that do not have a protruding guide rod where people want the can as close to the slide as possible