The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle

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Ladies and Gentlemen, my $0.02...

In the long gone days on my youth, I got to play with a Winchester 73 in 44-40, a saddle ring carbine of venerable age and little bluing. For fast work inside 50 yards, it was terrific. I knew how to work it from the shoulder before puberty kicked in.

Later there was a Marlin 44 mag, same deal. Even the glitch-cursed 45-70 Marlin I had briefly was fast handling (when it worked at all), though recoil was stout.

In the mid 80s I bought a 94 in 30-30, sold it when the elder Bush banned "Assault weapons" to get a SKS, which I tweaked to a 3-4" shooter at 100 yards(Trigger job, glass bedding, teflon taped gas tube,peep sight) with a 30 round magazine. Sold it after getting another 94 when I decides ChiCom stuff had no place in Casa McC. I did try some fast short range COFs side by side. For 5 shots, scores were identical and times were less than 1 second faster with the auto. More practice would cancel that, IMO.

Now my HBAR (Hill Billy Assault Rifle) is a fast handling, reasonably accurate tool for handling anything out to 200 yards, works for deer, and causes less Angst for non-shooters than an EBR. With trigger job, sling studs and peep sight, it still came in under $225. Not so great for repelling hordes of enemies, but I do not have hordes of enemies. In cases of civil disorder, it'll neutralize the first 6 or so in very short order, and I doubt suppressive fire here in the 'burbs will be needed very much.

FWIW, one local shooting club holds 30-30 matches, with 40 shots fired offhand at steel targets 200 yards away. Some possibles get fired.

Rules state any rifle chambered in 30-30 and using non optical sights is kosher.

As for the pistol caliber carbines, great fun lots of utility and a good way to start off newbies.
 
Nightcrawler opines: , the method of operation of the lever rifle has no more shortcomings than that of a pump shotgun. If the pump shotgun is an effective weapon despite it's limited capacity and manual operation, then so is the lever rifle. The two have nearly identical manuals of arms."

With the pump shotguns I have, pulling back the pump does not change your point of aim. Working the lever on a lever gun tends to pull the rifle butt down. Maybe I am doing it wrong. I cannot though for the life of me understand how the 'manual of arms' is nearly identical. My shotguns load from below, my lever guns load from the side. pump guns can be fired prone with no problems, lever guns, well its different. Shotguns and lever rifles have much different effective ranges, and accuracy potentials.

I might add, no Army issues shotguns as the main battle weapon, just as no army issues a lever gun. Same reasons to a large extent, so I guess I do see some similarity after all.

having rambled on there for a bit, don't get me wrong. Lever guns are fun, and darn effective. The last 6 deer I have taken were all with a marlin 1894S. All one shot kills. I prefer this rifle to all others for hunting in heavy North Florida cover.

I would NOT take one to Baghdad though.
 
Lever guns were used as battle rifles, by the...Turks, I believe?

Anyway, Marlin now has a short li'l carbine coming out in thutty-thutty. Made for young shooters, I believe the short barrel and stock will make it ideal for ranch rifle/home defense type work, when teamed with a good peep sight.

I believe a lever gun is a much better defensive piece than a dedicated mil type gun.

John
 
Glamdring, I hate to disagree but there are lots of deceased Russians that would admit the superiority of lever action Winchesters in the hands of Turks over their single-shot Krnka rifles. The Turks first engaged the Russians with Martini-Peabody rifles then switched over to Winchester M1866 rifles and decimated the Russian-Romanian combined cavalry and infantry at Plevna in 1877.



http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html

Never underestimate a determined defender trained with adequate tools.

Regards,
Rabbit.
 
"...I have never shot a lever gun..."

You should really do something about that...

If you're looking for a good lever action I can recomend the Winchester Model 94. My grandmother gave me a model 94 when I was a kid, and I love it. Its an older one, I think it was made in the early 50s. But is still looks, and shoots, great.

I know there are alot of marlin fans here, but I think the winchester is a little less bulky and cumbersome. Also, alot of the Marlin .30-30s have a curved pistol grip, and I prefer the strait grip. The only real advantage to the Marlin in my opinion is that it is alot less of a hassel to mount a scope on one (the marlin has side-eject, the winchester ejects from the top). But I dont' really see that advantage of puting a scope on a lever gun. At lever-gun ranges (100 yards or less), the iron sights will work just as good as a scope, and are faster (or at least they are for me). And you don't have to worry about fog :)

I'm sure lots of you will not agree with me, and thats fine. But for me, with what I want a lever gun for, the Winchester model 94 is the better gun...
 
I would NOT take one to Baghdad though.
Click to expand...

You going to Baghdad? Neither is anyone here. I don't think anyone is advocating replacing the M4 in US Army service with a Win 94. I think the thread has more to do with using a lever-action rifle as a truck/utility/home defense rifle.

You could have a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range" in Baghdad, and if you're by yourself, you ain't going to make it.

Scott
 
Some flat black Krylon on the wood would make that lever gun Ueber-tactical!
Click to expand...

You mean like this?
mguide.jpg

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/m_guide.asp

Brockman Lever Actions
 
I stand by my statement. The manual of arms is practically identical. Note the use of modifiers such as "practically" and "virtually".

Both need to be reloaded one round at a time into an underbarrel tubular magazine. The placement of the loading gate matters very little to me.

Both are best kept in action by the "shoot one, reload one" method.

Both can be reloaded by opening the action and dropping one in the chamber, then loading the magazine.

Both are manually operated.

Virtually identical.

No one here suggested replacing any military arms with lever rifles.

But I fail to see how that at all has anything to do with its utility to us. A lever gun is good enough for any situation a civilian in nice, peaceful, stable America is likely to encounter, from armed assailants to attacking animals.

I believe that a lever rifle, in .30-30 or .35 Rem, equipped with synthetic stocks and peep sights, would be a perfectly acceptable patrol rifle for the majority of police departments in the country.
 
There would be very few circumstances where I would prefer a lever action to my AR15. None that I can think of right off the top of my head. I guess if I lived in a place where you encounted large animals or something, having a larger bore rifle might be an advantage, but I don't. Note that in almost every post something similar to; it is almost as good, or-as civilians we probably won't need to do ____ . In other words the semi-auto, military style rifle does it all, and the lever action is a close second.

Yes, I own a number of lever acitons. I have a Marlin in .357, I have a pre-64 Winchester 94 in .30-30 and I have a Marlin in .444 set up just like those pictures on the second post of the thread with AO Ghost Rings sights, an AO lever scout scope mount, and a Leupold Scout Scope. I like lever actions. I enjoy shooting lever actions. I think lever actions are a great utility rifle. But for a "Tacitical Rifle" I am not fooling myself. Would it work ? Sure. Would it probably get you by in any prabable sitution ? Sure. But it isn't the equal of a semi-auto for the kind of stuff we are discussing.
 
IIRC, some segents of the Imperial Russian army used Winchester lever actions that had box magazines (1895s?) and were made in 7.62x54 PERHAPS. I believe this was to augment the Mosins. From Military Classics magazine was a story that the British Royal Navy used Winchesters as boarding party weapons. That the U.S. Army never issued Winchesters to its men after documented success of repeating weapons (the Henry---"that Yankee rifle loaded on Sunday and fired all weeK"--and the Spencer---"that Yankee shot tower") in the Civil War is a dog that nips at its heels today and first fomented allegations of the U.S. Army arming its soldiers with inferior weaponry that has resurfaced into discussion of the early M-16s. While the .45/70 had longer range, the cavalry really had no need of such "range" and repeating weapons might have allowed Custer to hold out a bit longer, perhaps even survive. Alas, we shall never know. But we do know that the folks Custer faced had Winchesters.

Many folks are in states where they cannot get semi-autos that other folks enjoy access to. In such cases, the lever action is an excellent choice. The .30-30 is so common, it can be found in gas stations and grocery stores in rural areas. This is a decided advantage in many cases. The pistol caliber carbines are a boon to any pistol and make ammo a snap. More so with a .35 carbine that feeds .38 Special reliably as that increases the mobility of the weapon as far as supply go because those same gas stations IF they carry pistol ammo, are going to have .38 Special. It's pretty much a given that all over the U.S., no matter where you go, you are going to find .22LR, 12 gauge, .30-30, and .38 Special. With a combination of weapons that chamber any of those 4, you are ready to rock anywhere, anytime. Most cities and town do carry 9mm, .223, .308, .30-06 and 7.62x39, so this isn't the logistics issue it once was. But, when you can't own a semi, a lever will save the day and put the bacon on the table.
 
"But it isn't the equal of a semi-auto for the kind of stuff we are discussing"

There are 2 advantages I can think of that the lever has over the semi-auto:

#1: Cost. Most semi-autos will cost twice as much

#2: Reliablity. Has anyone ever seen a lever-gun "jam"? I haven't...
 
For me, cost isn't an issue. I already own both along with a couple other things, so the issue is making a choice.

Yes, I have seen a lever action jam. And I have seen them break. And I have seen them malfunction.

Now that I think about it, I have a fourth lever action; Winchester 94 Trapper in .45 Colt. The realitively flat, silver metal piece that guides rounds from the tube, to the chamber snapped in half soon after buying it. The store said it is common. Got it fixed and have had no further problem with it.
My Marlin 444 had the ejector come out somehow inside the gun. It was an easy fix, but the gun couldn't be fired until it was disassembled and the part replaced into it's proper position. This was not my fault. When this happened, I had never taken the rifle apart-so it wasn't a question of me forgetting to put it back when I assembled the rifle.
I have had feeding hangups at one time or another on most of my lever actions. Nothing serious, but it was a hangup.

On the other hand, I have an AR15 that I have fired close to 5000 round through. I have had two malfuctions. One was the result of using a USA brand 40 round mag which resulted in a failure to feed. The other malfuctiion was a dud round (PMC). When I cleared the stoppage the bullet pulled out of the case and spilled powder throughout the action. The rifle was pretty much dead in the water at that point. I had to tear it down and clean it.

All firearms will malfunction. All firearms can break. It is just a question of when. If you shoot any one of them enough, it will happen.
 
444, your points are valid, but as far as I can recall, nobody suggested that the lever rifle was "better" than a semiauto for defensive useage. It was merely discussing whether or not the lever rifle could be adapted to that role, which it certainly can be, and it would work quite well.

No, it wouldn't give you the capacity or rate of fire of a semiauto, but we all knew that from the get-go.
 
"nobody suggested that the lever rifle was "better" than a semiauto for defensive useage."
That has been eluded to.


"It was merely discussing whether or not the lever rifle could be adapted to that role "
As you can note in a previous post I made, I agreed completely. If for some reason, you are limited to a lever action rifle, it will do a good job. There are worse choices.

Also note that I was simply answering questions that have been asked. They may not be agreeable to everyone, but hey ?
 
Only problem lever guns have tactically is working the lever from the prone position. Being able to "top off" the tube magazine with the rifle ready to fire is an advantage over box magazine rifles that makes up for the relative slowness of a complete reload
END

I disagree. I bet I can perform a tactical reload with my AR15, where I save the partial mag faster than you can load 2 rounds in your lever gun.
PAT
 
How fast is a .357Mag 125gr JHP going out of a 16"-20" barrel?
Yes, a lever action can be tricky to work from the prone. I have long arms, so when I shoot prone, the rifle is far enough away from the ground to not have that problem, but some have trouble with it.
But if I am driving off an intruder, why would I be shooting from the prone?
It seems to be that the lever gun did just fine in resolving problems from about 1860 on.
They will never equal an AK, but I would feel far from unarmed with one.
 
Teddy Roosevelt and his motley crew of Rough Riders used a lot of lever action rifles to good effect in Cuba.
roughrider.jpg


Thinking about this topic is giving me some chuckles. I'm not clear on some issues here.
Is the lever action outdated and obsolete because:
It isn't box magazine fed?
It isn't semi auto?
It fires a cartridge that is by order of magnatude many times more powerful than an AR's widdle bitty .22 caliber pill?
It isn't black?
It doesn't have a pistol grip?

I'm a little confused.
Box magazine fed... well, neither was the M1 Garand and we stomped the Germans with it in WWII 8 rounds at a time.
Semi Auto... Well I know Ol' White Feather did just fine without an auto rifle during Vietnam.
Are there not official complaints registered about the lack of potency and stopping power with the 5.56MM? I've yet to hear one complaint that a .44 Magnum doesn't have enough stopping power on anything short of a pissed off Alaskan Brown Bear.
Since when does color have to do with the weapon's ability? The Sten Gun and MP-44 are the only guns off the top of my head that were all black... And I don't think of them as being any more powerful than anything else... even the much older 1903 Springfield that saw a lot of service.
No Pistol grip. Just like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine or even the HBAR and the M-14.

If the Lever action sucks, then so did the Garand and the M-14... and anyone who says that doesn't know crap about firearms. Funny how SEALS tend to opt for the powerful no pistol gripped un-black M-14 instead of the black wimpy 30 round packing pistol gripped M-16.
Also the IMI TIMBERWOLF sucked rocks, which is why they are highly prized and sought after rifles for shooters that have tastes outside their mouths.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.
 
I put an eotech(Bushnell HoloSight) red dot on my 1894C some time last year because of cross dominance problems. What a fun gun. Eyes wide-open acquisition, speedy and accurate........well, tactical?:uhoh:
 
Also the IMI TIMBERWOLF sucked rocks, which is why they are highly prized and sought after rifles for shooters that have tastes outside their mouths.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how the TIMBERWOLF got in here, but, man, oh, man, do I have the hots for one of those. What a truck-gun, too.

Scott
 
A lever gun is not in my “first choice†column as a self-defense weapon.

Don’t get me wrong … the 30-30 round is excellent (I have put down more then a few white tail with mine) and the action can be operated with reasonable speed if you train. That is until a reload is necessary. At the point of reloading the lever gun it diminishes quickly by comparison to a pump or semi-auto shotgun.

One who makes a 30-30 lever gun his self defense ready weapon trades away quite a bit in the way of fight stopping features.

Politics is a genuine concern in surviving a self-defense situation and I realize that most of us are limited in the cash we have available for firearms. Yet given the inherent limitations in the effective range of the 30-30 (compared to military cartages) and the difficulty in reloading one quickly I remain unconvinced that one is a better choice then an all American Shot-gun. Reasonable in price, select slugs for long shots, and rapid reloading (by comparison) make the shotgun a superior choice for this role. If rifle range is a must then an SKS or even an Enfield or Springfield ’03 bolt action seem better choices then a 30-30 lever gun.
 
One who makes a 30-30 lever gun his self defense ready weapon trades away quite a bit in the way of fight stopping features.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Could you provide a plausible scenario where 10 rounds of .44mag (94 Trapper) is not enough that 1) is survivable; 2) a 20/30 round mag is what have made it survivable; and 3) is common to even 1% of the shooting population?

Maybe I'm just not seeing the threat properly.

Scott
 
You can't knock me. I don't currently own a lever gun and before this, I had never thought about one as a HD gun or anything but fun/hunting.

Now everything I'm going to say goes to "legitimate" uses. Unless something bad happens, suppressive fire; etc. will only put you in jail.

So lets say for HD. Lets not even take cost into account.

You've got your autoloaders:

.223 (ar's etc) light, fast. Marginal stopping power. Fine for CQB if set up right. Good up to maybe 100-150 yds realistically w/ iron's.

The russian rifles. 7.69x39. Better caliber. Not as mobile or handy (either AK or SKS). The SKS is slow to reload, especially in the dark, under stress; only 10 rds. Maybe 100 yds on irons.

The .308 rifles. Good caliber. Way to ungainly to manipulate in your house. Heavy. Long shots easier.

Lever gun. Fine calibers. (44, 30-30) As many shots as an SKS in some configs. Easier and shorter than all of the above save for maybe the AR. Ability to top off. Probably just as fast as the above for AIMED shots as the above. 100-150 yds range.

Shtgun. Plenty of power. Not as short (18"-16") but handier than above save for maybe the lever and AR. Less capacity than any save for militaristic full mag guns. maybe 50 yds range (maybe)

Okay. And one more thing, what's going to be better to come into court with after using your HD gun, an "assualt weapon" or grampa's deer gun?


So maybe a lever is the BEST HD and truck gun, huh? I allways thought the shotgun but maybe not.
 
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