The time has come to punch someone in the nose!
- Thread starter Okiecruffler
- Start date
- Status
Penforhire
Member
Amadeus, too funny! My Turner's story is about the teenage clerk who cut a finger deeply while showing me how a particular folding knife worked. Then he wouldn't attend to his dripping wound until a female employee just about forced him to clean and bandage it...
Even with a 1911 or a S&W revolver which are perfectly safe to dry-fire, it's always impolite to dry-fire without asking. Generally, the only firearms I dry-fire are those I own or am interested in buying.
silent one's comments above are right on. This guy's credential to teach are suspect. He and his employer need to be educated with regard to the fact that not all firearms are safe to dry-fire. Not all cookies come from the same mold. Furthermore, regardless of his opinion of another persons choice of firearm, he needs to bear in mind that he is an employee and that they are paying the salary for the service he is supposedly providing. It's his job to know that certain guns should not be dry-fired and he is obviously not up to the task. This raises the issue of his qualifications to teach a firearms class. At this point he will rationalize that if a weapon can't be dry-fired it shouldn't be in his class or it isn't worth a crap or is too fragile for CCW. That's when the conversation will get interesting
I won't even get into the sexist comments, that's out of line. Aside: IMO, the Mitchell was probably the wrong firearm to take to this class, a Glock or a quality revolver (Ruger, S&W) would have been better -- but that's really irrelavent. Not knowing what was expected of the firearm prior to the class, why should you have chosen differently. Now, you might choose differently.
>>>On this pistol, yes.
Well, IMHO I wouldn't leave this to my wife, unless she planned on pursuing the damage to the pistol with the range owners. Obviously her work on the issue will help, especially if she is as motivated as she sounds. However, there is something to an in your face presentation with the range ownership that tends to be effective.
This guy doesn't seem to have a rudimentary knowledge about firearms or firearms safety to me. He needs to go. I mean, I even know that dry firing can be bad for some guns, and I'm hardly an expert on these things.
A good way to get him out of this job is to let his employers know he damaged your gun, that you don't think him qualified to teach the class, and that he doesn't have the proper temperment anyway. Add in that due to him you won't shop/shoot there anymore, etc. More effective to do this in person if you have time, but a phone call can work too.
Ask them if they will advise you if they rectify the situation. If you feel like it, demand compensation for the damage to the gun (matter of personal style).
Good luck, I know I'd be pretty steamed right now.
Well, IMHO I wouldn't leave this to my wife, unless she planned on pursuing the damage to the pistol with the range owners. Obviously her work on the issue will help, especially if she is as motivated as she sounds. However, there is something to an in your face presentation with the range ownership that tends to be effective.
This guy doesn't seem to have a rudimentary knowledge about firearms or firearms safety to me. He needs to go. I mean, I even know that dry firing can be bad for some guns, and I'm hardly an expert on these things.
A good way to get him out of this job is to let his employers know he damaged your gun, that you don't think him qualified to teach the class, and that he doesn't have the proper temperment anyway. Add in that due to him you won't shop/shoot there anymore, etc. More effective to do this in person if you have time, but a phone call can work too.
Ask them if they will advise you if they rectify the situation. If you feel like it, demand compensation for the damage to the gun (matter of personal style).
Good luck, I know I'd be pretty steamed right now.
Okiecruffler
Member
The Mitchell was the perfect weapon to take to the class. The wife handles it quite well. Besides It's the only auto I currently have with the exception of a CZ52 with a broken grip, and you must qualify with an auto to get an auto endorsement on your licence. One of the guys in her group was using a High Standard Victor, complete with barrel weights, muzzlebreak and red dot. The wife says that after 50 shots he had one hole in his target that looked like a 357 hole. I guess when you're used to shooting 50yrd bullseye, 7 yrds isn't much of a challange.
The fact that the Mitchell is the only semi currently aailable to you is irrelavent to it being appropriate for a CCW class. As for your wife handling it well, is she going to CCW the Mitchell? Probably not, so why get CCW qual'd on a pistol she will never carry.
All that said, the guy is still a dufus and should not be teaching the course. Damage to the Mitchell is still real.
All that said, the guy is still a dufus and should not be teaching the course. Damage to the Mitchell is still real.
Moparmike
Member
He probably dropped the slide on the ground, potentially damaging the finish, sight alignment, and ability to smoothly go back on the pistol and fully function.
If you are like me, you had to read it twice to realize it was slide, and not mag.
If you are like me, you had to read it twice to realize it was slide, and not mag.
Silent one beat me to it. If the state "licenses" these folks they usually do it on material submitted supporting knowledge, experience, etc. (NRA cert, for instance).
It would make sense to have his sheepskin pulled. He's only turning people off, and no one needs that - particularly the tyro shooter who may very well need to carry.
But - I must mention that there might be a downside to pulling his ticket... it might include cancelling all his student quals if he's found more than just "crass and stupid" in his people handling.
The "lawyer" needs to be checked out too - he appears (as you describe) to have issues too.
Sounds like that whole "team" needs a bit of fresh air and sunlight.
Wonder what their pass/flunk record is.
-Andy
It would make sense to have his sheepskin pulled. He's only turning people off, and no one needs that - particularly the tyro shooter who may very well need to carry.
But - I must mention that there might be a downside to pulling his ticket... it might include cancelling all his student quals if he's found more than just "crass and stupid" in his people handling.
The "lawyer" needs to be checked out too - he appears (as you describe) to have issues too.
Sounds like that whole "team" needs a bit of fresh air and sunlight.
Wonder what their pass/flunk record is.
-Andy
Okiecruffler
Member
riverdog
Not sure what the laws are like where you are, but in Oklahoma if you qualify with an auto, you can carry ANY auto, not like some places where you have to list the actual weapons you will carry. She could have qualified with her 357, but then she could only carry a revolver, and she has her eye on a Keltec 380 for occasional carry.
As far as my slide goes, He didn't drop it on the floor, just released it and allowed it to slam against the barrel. This is probably just fine, but I don't do it, and I know alot of other people who don't do it either. Once again, it's just bad form.
As far as I can tell, no damage was done, I ran 300 rds thru it today with no problems. But I've had friends that didn't know better dry fire my weapons, that can be forgiven. The anti-female attitude can not, and that's what the wife is taking care of.
Not sure what the laws are like where you are, but in Oklahoma if you qualify with an auto, you can carry ANY auto, not like some places where you have to list the actual weapons you will carry. She could have qualified with her 357, but then she could only carry a revolver, and she has her eye on a Keltec 380 for occasional carry.
As far as my slide goes, He didn't drop it on the floor, just released it and allowed it to slam against the barrel. This is probably just fine, but I don't do it, and I know alot of other people who don't do it either. Once again, it's just bad form.
As far as I can tell, no damage was done, I ran 300 rds thru it today with no problems. But I've had friends that didn't know better dry fire my weapons, that can be forgiven. The anti-female attitude can not, and that's what the wife is taking care of.
Orthonym
Member
Anti-female attitude=bad; anti-bozo attitude=good!
Still not clear if the guy had your wife's express permission to pick up her piece and uh, do nasty things to it.
A friend used to own one of those little 22short Beretta autoloaders, and unwisely left it out during a party at his house. (Yes,I know, etc etc)
It seems that a "guest of a guest" saw it, thought "Cool! a GUN! Let's play with it!" Said "guest" picked up the piece, drew back its slide and released it several times, couldn't understand why no cartridges flew out (no extractor, boys and girls!)The thing never worked right afterwards.
The offender was summarily ejected and told never, ever, to show his face in that place again, after which I pointed out to the friend that HE was a bozo to leave his weapon lying around where bozos could get at it. I also pointed out to him that it has always been considered extremely horribly rude, in all times and at all places, to pick up another man's weapon and play with it without his permission.
I believe I also said to him that the traditional punishment for such rudeness (well, anyway since the invention of the flint knife, or maybe even the sharp stick) has always been immediate, painful, violent death!
Are we so decadent that we don't know what our Stone Age ancestors knew?
Keep your hands off the other person's weapon, or else!
Edit: To distill it down to a blunt point (not to mention metaphor miscegenation), that guy is lucky to be alive! Had it been my dangerous short-tempered sweety there instead of your obviously cool-headed prudent spouse, there might have been a dead rude person lying there.
Still not clear if the guy had your wife's express permission to pick up her piece and uh, do nasty things to it.
A friend used to own one of those little 22short Beretta autoloaders, and unwisely left it out during a party at his house. (Yes,I know, etc etc)
It seems that a "guest of a guest" saw it, thought "Cool! a GUN! Let's play with it!" Said "guest" picked up the piece, drew back its slide and released it several times, couldn't understand why no cartridges flew out (no extractor, boys and girls!)The thing never worked right afterwards.
The offender was summarily ejected and told never, ever, to show his face in that place again, after which I pointed out to the friend that HE was a bozo to leave his weapon lying around where bozos could get at it. I also pointed out to him that it has always been considered extremely horribly rude, in all times and at all places, to pick up another man's weapon and play with it without his permission.
I believe I also said to him that the traditional punishment for such rudeness (well, anyway since the invention of the flint knife, or maybe even the sharp stick) has always been immediate, painful, violent death!
Are we so decadent that we don't know what our Stone Age ancestors knew?
Keep your hands off the other person's weapon, or else!
Edit: To distill it down to a blunt point (not to mention metaphor miscegenation), that guy is lucky to be alive! Had it been my dangerous short-tempered sweety there instead of your obviously cool-headed prudent spouse, there might have been a dead rude person lying there.
Last edited:
Pendragon
Member
It is one of those subjects that reasonable people disagree on, but dropping the slide on an empty chamber means the slide is not slowed down by the feeding process and in some guns, some damage (perhaps very slight) can occur - many people say that you can wreck a 1911 tuned trigger this way because it does something to the sear...stuff.
The whole thing was grossly unprofessional and unforgiveably rude.
The whole thing was grossly unprofessional and unforgiveably rude.
stellarpod
Member
Okiecruffler:
I've read all the way through this thread and initially thought I'd hold my tongue, but I've got to state that I've spent a tremendous amount of time at this particular range and find the employees to be, for the most part, very competent.
I don't know who you are speaking of specifically. There have certainly been a few questionable characters there in the past, but I think they've done a pretty good job of culling them out.
When I inquired about their CCW course several years ago they went to great detail to inform me about every aspect of the class - including the dry-firing routine. It is not uncommon that a dry-firing excercise is included in a CCW course. Both my wife and I enrolled and passed the course, choosing an APPROPRIATE firearm, both in terms of comfort with the particular firearm and specifically one that would not be harmed by dry-firing.
My wife was certainly more comfortable with the .22. But, I worked with her prior to the course, using a Kahr P9 instead SPECIFICALLy because of the dry-fire aspect. If you knew about the requirement and still sent her to the range for her course with your Mitchell, then shame on you. If you did not know about the dry-fire requirment, then that's another issue.
As far as the sexist remarks; it is totally inexcusable and should be addressed. But, to broad-brush the entire organization as enept or incapable is a bit over the top. And, in my opinion, if you or your wife don't take the necessary steps to address the specific incident(s) with the management, then I don't believe it's fair to insinuate any indifference on their part.
I don't care how good an individual or an organization is. There will be instances where bad judgement overrides good. So far as I'm concerned the good that H&H does for the Oklahoma City community far exceeds the rare anomoly of poor judgement shown by an individual employee.
In short, either address the issue with the management or get over it.
Sorry if that sounds cold.
stellarpod
I've read all the way through this thread and initially thought I'd hold my tongue, but I've got to state that I've spent a tremendous amount of time at this particular range and find the employees to be, for the most part, very competent.
I don't know who you are speaking of specifically. There have certainly been a few questionable characters there in the past, but I think they've done a pretty good job of culling them out.
When I inquired about their CCW course several years ago they went to great detail to inform me about every aspect of the class - including the dry-firing routine. It is not uncommon that a dry-firing excercise is included in a CCW course. Both my wife and I enrolled and passed the course, choosing an APPROPRIATE firearm, both in terms of comfort with the particular firearm and specifically one that would not be harmed by dry-firing.
My wife was certainly more comfortable with the .22. But, I worked with her prior to the course, using a Kahr P9 instead SPECIFICALLy because of the dry-fire aspect. If you knew about the requirement and still sent her to the range for her course with your Mitchell, then shame on you. If you did not know about the dry-fire requirment, then that's another issue.
As far as the sexist remarks; it is totally inexcusable and should be addressed. But, to broad-brush the entire organization as enept or incapable is a bit over the top. And, in my opinion, if you or your wife don't take the necessary steps to address the specific incident(s) with the management, then I don't believe it's fair to insinuate any indifference on their part.
I don't care how good an individual or an organization is. There will be instances where bad judgement overrides good. So far as I'm concerned the good that H&H does for the Oklahoma City community far exceeds the rare anomoly of poor judgement shown by an individual employee.
In short, either address the issue with the management or get over it.
Sorry if that sounds cold.
stellarpod
Orthonym
Member
Oh, Pendragon,
I did not mean to emphasize the possible, maybe only notional, damage to the pistol; more important, I think, was the horrible rudeness of the stranger picking up the piece and the horrible slackness in leaving the weapon out like that, where the stranger could get at it.
I did not mean to emphasize the possible, maybe only notional, damage to the pistol; more important, I think, was the horrible rudeness of the stranger picking up the piece and the horrible slackness in leaving the weapon out like that, where the stranger could get at it.
Greybeard
Member
Not sure about rules and regs in OK, but TX DPS says no one is supposed to be allowed on firing line except students and DPS-certified instructors ... (Not that similar could not still happen ... ) And "guest speakers" must also have blessing in advance from DPS ...
Minimum caliber was reduced a few years back from .380 to .32, but still no .22s ... And I thought OUR state had made the qualification course of fire such that almost any lil ol' lady could shoot a 70% - with 3 chances, of course ...
Minimum caliber was reduced a few years back from .380 to .32, but still no .22s ... And I thought OUR state had made the qualification course of fire such that almost any lil ol' lady could shoot a 70% - with 3 chances, of course ...
Pendragon
Member
Orthonym
Thats the way I took it - but a lot of people seemed to have trouble understanding why dropping the slide on an empty gun might be objectionable,
The behavior was indeed most rude - but it was also not necessarily harmless rude behavior such as merely insulting your gun - it was potentially damaging (even if only slightly) behavior.
I have heard of high dollar collectible revolvers that have never even had the cylinder turned and to do so would devalue them - hard to imagine, but possible.
The point is - you don't "work" someones gun for any reason unless you have permission and they brief you on its proper function.
The one exception might be in a life/death situation...
Thats the way I took it - but a lot of people seemed to have trouble understanding why dropping the slide on an empty gun might be objectionable,
The behavior was indeed most rude - but it was also not necessarily harmless rude behavior such as merely insulting your gun - it was potentially damaging (even if only slightly) behavior.
I have heard of high dollar collectible revolvers that have never even had the cylinder turned and to do so would devalue them - hard to imagine, but possible.
The point is - you don't "work" someones gun for any reason unless you have permission and they brief you on its proper function.
The one exception might be in a life/death situation...
Okiecruffler
Member
stellarpod
Glad you've enjoyed their range, but more than a few people I know have remarked about the arrogance of some of the staff there. I bought a Keltec P11 there a few years ago, but only after the salesman spent 30 minutes telling me what a fool I was for buying it and how he would never trust his life to a gun that cost less than a grand. To their credit, I haven't seen that individual the last few times I've been in there.
I truely believe that one moron shouldn't ruin the whole place, but this was 3 of 3 people involved. The situation is being taken care of, but regardless of outcome, they'll see no more of my money.
Glad you've enjoyed their range, but more than a few people I know have remarked about the arrogance of some of the staff there. I bought a Keltec P11 there a few years ago, but only after the salesman spent 30 minutes telling me what a fool I was for buying it and how he would never trust his life to a gun that cost less than a grand. To their credit, I haven't seen that individual the last few times I've been in there.
I truely believe that one moron shouldn't ruin the whole place, but this was 3 of 3 people involved. The situation is being taken care of, but regardless of outcome, they'll see no more of my money.
I too have frequented H&H gun range in OKC and indeed took my CCW class there.
In general the employees are knowledgeable and on occasion even friendly. There is a core of about 4 or 5 full time regular employees who actually run the place. Then there's 2 or 3 others that are part timers and these guys have a pretty high turn over rate and my guess is that one of them checked in Okie's wife.
In the whole place there is only one totally arrogant a'hole who I just will not deal with - I won't mention his name but anyone that frequents H&H will know who I'm speaking of.
As for their CCW class I believe that the range instructor must have changed since I took the class there because the guy that taught my class was very knowledgeable except for one thing. I called him on his malfunction manual of arms and flat out told him that I'd be doing it the way the military taught me if I had a malfunction while firing - that I would respond by training, experience and instinct and not the way he wanted us to. He understood - told the whole class that the method of clearing an auto pistol malfunction that I'd described was in fact the correct method in a combat or emergency SHTF situation but was not appropriate for the range. He allowed that if in the unlikely event that I did have a malfunction and responded as I had been trained that he probably wouldn't disqualify me.
As for the attorney that taught the class - well - that guy was a HENRY BOWMAN wannabe. It's almost like he took his script straight out of the UC novel and modded it for the class. He was trying to scare people out of CCW (after taking the class and watching some of those people shoot I hoped he'd succeeded). But he was knowledgeable concerning the law, answered all questions, never called anyone stupid and only twice said something was dumb even though it was legal.
I learned quite a bit from him and after thoroughly reading the OK law covering CCW, the use of Lethal Force, pointing of a firearm, brandishing, etc agreed with about 95% of what he had taught. The 5% I didn't agree with is the statement the he adamantly made and repeated that if you pulled your piece someone had to die - period. He would not back off of that. I don't agree with him to this day and never will.
Based on my experience the problem Okie's wife experienced is more than just an anti-female attitude. The class is just "wrong" now. H&H's owner is a guy serious about CCW and gun rights. He really needs to be made aware of the situation with his employee and what appear to be the "quacks" teaching the course at his business now.
In general the employees are knowledgeable and on occasion even friendly. There is a core of about 4 or 5 full time regular employees who actually run the place. Then there's 2 or 3 others that are part timers and these guys have a pretty high turn over rate and my guess is that one of them checked in Okie's wife.
In the whole place there is only one totally arrogant a'hole who I just will not deal with - I won't mention his name but anyone that frequents H&H will know who I'm speaking of.
As for their CCW class I believe that the range instructor must have changed since I took the class there because the guy that taught my class was very knowledgeable except for one thing. I called him on his malfunction manual of arms and flat out told him that I'd be doing it the way the military taught me if I had a malfunction while firing - that I would respond by training, experience and instinct and not the way he wanted us to. He understood - told the whole class that the method of clearing an auto pistol malfunction that I'd described was in fact the correct method in a combat or emergency SHTF situation but was not appropriate for the range. He allowed that if in the unlikely event that I did have a malfunction and responded as I had been trained that he probably wouldn't disqualify me.
As for the attorney that taught the class - well - that guy was a HENRY BOWMAN wannabe. It's almost like he took his script straight out of the UC novel and modded it for the class. He was trying to scare people out of CCW (after taking the class and watching some of those people shoot I hoped he'd succeeded). But he was knowledgeable concerning the law, answered all questions, never called anyone stupid and only twice said something was dumb even though it was legal.
I learned quite a bit from him and after thoroughly reading the OK law covering CCW, the use of Lethal Force, pointing of a firearm, brandishing, etc agreed with about 95% of what he had taught. The 5% I didn't agree with is the statement the he adamantly made and repeated that if you pulled your piece someone had to die - period. He would not back off of that. I don't agree with him to this day and never will.
Based on my experience the problem Okie's wife experienced is more than just an anti-female attitude. The class is just "wrong" now. H&H's owner is a guy serious about CCW and gun rights. He really needs to be made aware of the situation with his employee and what appear to be the "quacks" teaching the course at his business now.
- Status
