The truth about Russian ammo...

[KBintheSLC]

I was surprised at the results when comparing some of the most expensive ammo I have with some of the cheapest. I think the Russian bulk stuff is not only as good and some domestic picks, but sometimes it can even be superior to the home grown loads that cost 5x as much.

I "tested" these 2 loadings in 7.62x39 in soaked phone books yesterday to see how well they expand and destroy tissue. Each bag held the exact same amount of paper... one yellow pages, and one white pages, soaked to the core.

The shot on the right is a load from DoubleTap Ammo, 123g brass-cased polymer/ballistic tip JHP that costs about $1.25 per round.

The shot on the left is a load from the Barnaul ammo factory in Russia, 125g Brown Bear steel-cased jacketed soft point that runs about $0.25 - $0.30 per round.

The rifle is a Century Yugo AK variant with a 16" barrel.

As you can see, the Brown Bear caused a far more severe "wound" than the DT ammo. It was almost as if it were hit by a much larger caliber. I guess that since the Russians developed this platform, it is no surprise that they know how to get the most out of it.

 

[Mossberg88]

great study!
having 2 7.62x39, i've always been curious as to its penetration/stopping power in real terms as opposed to a measurement. from your tests, what would you say the max penetration of a round (7.62) is, granted different targets?

 

[BP Hunter]

Wow, what a difference! My rule is to use Russian ammo on Eastern bloc weapons. My DPMS M4 hates Wolf ammo. My old SKS chewed up Wolf ammo without any problems.

 

[BP Hunter]

Now that's good use of your phone directory.

 

[Bigfoot]

Interesting. I've read both good and bad reports of the Brown Bear SP ability to expand, nice to see an actual test. Can you still check out the "wound channel"? I curious to see if it mushroomed immediately or slowly. How thick was the phone book stack?

That's the Double Tap 123 V-MAX load? WTH? Brass Fetcher tested that same bullet in gel and it fragged real good.

 

[KBintheSLC]

That's the Double Tap 123 V-MAX load? WTH? Brass Fetcher tested that same bullet in gel and it fragged real good.

I too was surprised at the performance. I still think it can be a good load, but I thought it would have expanded more violently.

My rule is to use Russian ammo on Eastern bloc weapons.

I agree... I am not sure that results would have been the same using BB in an AR. The AK however seems to love the stuff.

Now that's good use of your phone directory.

Thats about all they are good for anymore.

having 2 7.62x39, i've always been curious as to its penetration/stopping power in real terms as opposed to a measurement. from your tests, what would you say the max penetration of a round (7.62) is, granted different targets?

I have no doubts regarding the effectiveness of the x39 cartridge for anti-personnel use... especially if you are not constrained by the Hague Convention ban on expanding ammo. I assume either of the rounds in the OP would stop any mortal man dead in his tracks.

 

[WoofersInc]

My DPMS M4 hates Wolf ammo

Shows the old adage about finding a round that your gun likes. My DPMS runs Wolf without any issues at all.

 

[Bigfoot]

I assume either of the rounds in the OP would stop any mortal man dead in his tracks.

Probably do a good job on the un-dead and zombies as well.

 

[wcoats]

do you think some of the difference could come from one being a jacketed hollow point, and one being a soft point. The JHP, might have been designed to expand slower, and might not have expanded much before it exited the phone book.

With that said, I do agree that russian ammo is plenty effective.

 

[Ignition Override]

Bigfoot:
The ammo used in the left photo might be what quickly killed a Texas feral pig, but the hunter claimed that it was a single shot jhp from his SKS.

Photos of the wound (peeled apart) were persuasive.
The swine died of Lead Flu.

 

[hammerklavier]

I'd say the one on the right has better penetration power, which is what the Ruskies try to avoid. Any indication if the Brown Bear tumbled or expanded to make such I hole? Looks to me like it tumbled.

 

[Sport45]

You guys know that someday those old phone books will sell on ebay for $100 a piece, right? And here you are shooting them up. Keep it up as it just makes the stack in my garage even more valuable!

This post was meant to be silly, but folks did similar things to Sears catalogs years ago and now they can be collectible. The trick, I guess, is knowing what to hang on to.

 

[musick]

Although I dont think a phone book is the same as tissue, I must say that I have been more than satisfied w/ the accuracy of Wolf rounds.

 

[dispatch55126]

Does the DoubleTap bullet measure at .308 or .310? I wonder if a thinner bullet failed to develop full velocity.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Does the DoubleTap bullet measure at .308 or .310? I wonder if a thinner bullet failed to develop full velocity.

I'm not really sure. I tried to find that out myself since that could be the issue. I believe that the bullet DT uses for that load is a Hornady V-Max. However, on Hornady's website they do not have a V-Max in 123g weight. The only 123g bullet they have is a spire point and it is a 0.310. All of their V-Max bullets are 0.308 caliber and weigh either 110g or 130g and above.

So, I really don't know for sure. I would think that Mike at DT would use a 0.310 bullet for his load since he advertises his velocities out of an AK and an SKS. Maybe someone else can shine some light on this for us.

 

[Snakum]

"I assume either of the rounds in the OP would stop any mortal man dead in his tracks."

Probably do a good job on the un-dead and zombies as well.

Head shots, man ... headshots!

But about the ammo ... for me the Brown Bear HP has been the most accurate 7.62 I've found. With my best AK, a CAI 10/63, and a scope I can usually coax 2" groups till the barrel gets hot, sometimes less than 2" when the Group Gods are smiling at me. While Winchester white box FMJ and Remington FMJ opens up an inch or two more, Wolf Classic adds another inch, and Wolf "Performance" ammo takes me out to Minute-O-Pie Plate no matter how cold the barrel is or who is smiling at me.

I'll be shooting Brown Bear Soft Point in a couple weeks when hunting those pesky antlered rats that are taking over down here.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Now this was funny, take a look on the right book in the picture and above the "wound" it says "Serious Injury or Death Cases" That's great. Good test!

 

[Bigfoot]

Hornady made the .310 caliber 123 grain V-MAX as a special order for Grafs that's why they have never listed it on their site. I'd read that Grafs had discontinued it so I bought 500 bullets. On Midway I see that Hornady sells the 123 grain V-MAX loaded in steel cases for $32/50. American made bullets in steel cases? I wonder if Hornady farmed out the bullets to overseas production and that it's changed since Brass Fetcher tested it.

I once read that the Silver/Brown/Golden Bear SP is a Uly "Effect" bullet (8M5) and that it frags somewhat. That's why I asked about the cavity and the medium thickness.

 

[RP88]

Interesting. I think you should do more shots and at different ranges first, though, in order to see how they truly stack up to each other.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Interesting. I think you should do more shots and at different ranges first, though, in order to see how they truly stack up to each other.

True... a single round of each, with no chrono readings does not tell us much about the true average performance of these rounds. I wish I had the proper equipment to do a better test.

I did chrono some Brown Bear 123g FMJ once out of the same 16" AK. It averaged a bit over 2400 fps at about 6' from the muzzle. That is a pretty hot load considering a shorter barrel. The violent expansion in the OP could just be a result of being 150-200 fps faster than the V-Max loading.

 

[Girodin]

WTH? Brass Fetcher tested that same bullet in gel and it fragged real good.

Well beyond them being shot into different mediums, a sample size of one is far from conclusive.

 

[bestseller92]

I just ordered 500 rounds of Brown Bear 7.62x39 from Cope's for $117.94, after shipping.

 

[MD_Willington]

Looks about right for 8M3 or 8M5

• 8M1 = fmj nipple bullet
• 8M2 = fmj bullet
• 8M3 = hp bullet
• 8M5 = sp bullet

Also do a search on the forums here for sapsan 8m3 etc...

 

[Mike U.]

Here's a pic that should be of interest: