The Ultimate Combat Round

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I'm wondering just why the 7mm Mauser never made it big as a Combat round.
It had the reputation as a highly effective cartridge even in the early 175 gr mild velocity loads and there have been 139 high velocity incarnations of this round in military use at various times.

The .276 Pederson round that was originally slated for the Garand has excellent potential. Only its overall length seems to count against it for modern assault rifle use.

Either of the above mentioned rounds would have been a better choice than the 7.62 NATO for squad automatics.
The original loading of the 7mm main claim to fame was its outstanding penetration of improvised barricades and building materials, even without specially constructed bullets.
Being able to switch out to a milder recoiling 139 grain loading would increase controllability.

The 6.5 never had much of a rep as a mankiller.
 
I just want to understand you have confirmed these velocities personally, and aren't using AA data, which in my experience, is 'optimistic'.

I have NOT confirmed these velocities personally and I AM using AA data. If a preponderence of data indicates the velocities are "optimistic," I'll revise the chart.

However, consider an article by David Fortier in the May 21, 2007, issue of Shotgun News titled "More Punch for Your AR." Out of a 16" barrel his test of the new Black Hills Ammunition 6.5 Grendel 123 Sierra MatchKing yielded a velocity of 2497 fps. I could still be wrong, but, given that, I think AA's figure of 2475 fps is reasonable.

And while I don't know what pressure Black Hills is loading to, I think it's generally accepted that they know what they're doing and wouldn't knowingly manufacture ammo that's unsafe for its intended use.

Out of curiosity, what velocity would you expect or "guess-timate" from your 6.5x45 concept with a 123 SMK from a 16" barrel?

John
 
As always, it is not my contention that 6.5 Grendel blows 7.62 NATO "out of the water," but that it is unique in giving very close to 7.62 NATO performance from handier weapons and with half the recoil.
No offense, but this is exactly the kind of statement that makes my head explode.

I may not be da bestest at fizziks, but this cannot be true. You cannot launch a 123gr projectile with approximately seventy percent of the mass of your control round (7.62x51 175gr) at a similar velocity and achieve a 50% reduction in free recoil. Moreover, you cannot chamber that round in a lighter weapon and achieve a 50% reduction in felt recoil.
 
I'm wondering just why the 7mm Mauser never made it big as a Combat round.

Off the top of my head, I believe the Boers in South Africa used it effectively against the British, but they were generally skilled shots, having practical experience on moving targets with African game.

Also, the Spanish used the 7mm 175gr round-nose against Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders in Cuba. There, it did not gain a fearsome reputation. Many "Yankees" who were shot were amazed that the bullet drilled right through with a small entrance and exit wound that was almost self-cauterized. Except, of course, for those who were hit in the head as they were crawling up the hill through the grass. A witness said they were "flipped over like spoons."

RBernie, I could have clarified by saying "roughly" half the recoil. This, of course, can be calculated. What numbers should I use for inputs?

John
 
I'd like to see some 123 grain .308 loaded to actual pressure (M80 isn't loaded like it could be) compared against the 6.5.
 
The way I see it compromising a round between the main battle rifle and GPMG and such is a bad idea. They have inherently different targets. The GPMG can have a target anywhere from a running terrorist to a small aircraft. The MBR has no such diversity of targets, it is solely for anti-infantry use. So standardizing a round between the two is a little fallacious, I think. Use a small, devastating (in unarmored tissue), high-velocity bullet for the MBR and a large heavy bullet with punch in the GPMG. Something like 5.56 for the MBR and .338 Lapua for the GPMGs.
The only problem I see with this is weight. You'd need a high-efficiency of weight for the GPMGs and I'm not sure Lapua delivers that.
 
No, the .338 Lapua, while being an amazing anti-personel long range round, would be a poor GPMG round. A logistics nightmare, if you will. The 5.56 we are using now works. It's limited to anti-personel at modern combat ranges, which is why we have the .308 to pick up its slack. I don't think refitting the Army with something new would be such a great idea.
 
It's the only .338 cartridge I can think of. I think a .338 caliber round would be a good GPMG cartridge. Maybe it's a bit big, but I think .308 is a bit small for a GPMG.
 
Grendelizer, the idea of the 6x45 was to basically duplicate Grendel performance with lower pressure and with more body taper and a shallower shoulder angle.

The reported performance of 6.5 Grendel looks very good. i just wasn't able to duplicate Alexander Arms' numbers. This is a situation not unique to AA. Almost all ammunition manufacturers report ballistics numbers that can rarely be duplicated by reloaders and are highly optimistic.

The 6.5x45 has a shoulder angle of 20 degrees and a body taper of 1 degree. compare this to 5.56 which has a body taper of about 20 minutes of a degree and 7.62x39 which has a body taper of about 1.5 degrees. Shallower shoulders and more body taper leads to better feeding, and much of the reliability of the AK is probably due to the shape of the M43 round itself.

As far as performance, 6x45 will push the 123 SMK at a predicted velocity of 2450fps from a 16 inch barrel at only 50,000 psi. Since M855 ball achieves it's spec'd velocity at 53820 PSI ( an nice safe margin under the M16's rated 55,000) we can probably do the same with the Grendel or 6x45 and still have a safe pressure even in hot conditions. At that pressure, 6.5x45 can do almost 2500fps from a 16 inch bbl with the 123.

I actually looked at the 107gn SMK as the standard round, as it has reduced recoil for auto fire and also falls nicely between the 62gn M855 and the 147gn M80. With said bullet, velocity is about 2650 from a 16 inch bbl.
 
Deer Hunter

If you load a 308 with a 123 bullet, it will lose to the Grendel at long range because the 6.5 123gn bullet will have a much higher BC. In fact, 6.5 bullets tend to have very high BCs at all weight ranges, which is why that caliber is so popular for long range shooting. 6mm and 7mm bullets at the heavier range also tend to have much better BCs than 30 caliber.

A good bullet in the 30 caliber that performs well against the 6.5 Grendel is the 155gn Lapua Scenar with it's BC of 0.508 (compared to the 6.5 123 SMK with a BC of 0.510), but again, this is not a valid apples-to-apples comparison. The heavier 6.5 Lapua Scenars have BC of well over 0.600.

The 308 will drive a bullet faster than the 6.5 Grendel can, but thanks to superior BC of most 6.5 bullets, by 6 or 7 hundred yards, the 6.5 will catch up to the 30 caliber bullet.
 
rbernie

The 6.5 doesn't overtake the 308 in velocity or energy until very long range. Since 90% of all infantry rifle fire occurs at 300 yards or less, and 70% occurs at less that 100 yards, this factor doesn't have much to do with infantry combat rifles anyway.

But if you are looking for a universal cartridge, to replace both the MG and the rifle, the intermediate rounds start to make real sense.

It's worth keeping in mind that most military cartridges now in use are between 50-100 years old, and we have made some progress in weapons designs, propellants and bullets.

Many people compare the 6.5 Grendel to the 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and in some ways this is valid. But those earlier rounds were designed for round nosed, not spitzer bullets, and certainly there can be no comparison between RN and modern boat tails, high BC bullets developed in the last 20 years.
 
OK, let's redo the requirements a bit based on some assumptions:

Future conflicts will be mostly urban insurgent in nature. Therefore, there is no need for AP capability, and firefights will be waged at less than 200 yards. There is no need for lethality, in fact, non-lethal wounds are better in that wounded comrades put a greater burden on a fighting force.

With those assumptions in mind a weapon that fires a .22 Mag or even .22 LR would be sufficient. Cartridge weight would be minimal. One soldier could carry thousands of rounds.

Weapons could be programmable: Have an adjustable full auto where a selectable burst of 3 to 25 rounds is fired by computerized circuitry with each pull of the trigger (it's in paintball guns now). Weapons could have multiple barrels and fire on the order of 100 rounds/second.

If long range, AP capability is needed have one person per squad with a .50 BMG.
 
ZigZagZeke, lethality is very important, as you want to make sure that the enemy is down for good. You don't want to have to keep on fighting the guy until he passes out. You want BLAMMO! and a clean kill.
 
ZigZag, are you crazy! you want to arm our troops with a 22 auto! hell, we already do that. What nobody wants to admit, is that the 7.62x39 is the best battle round out there. It is a good thing that the oppisition in all of our wars weren't as well trained as our boys are. We could slay them dead with 17hmr's, because we have superior soldiers, not because of our guns
 
7.62x39 doesn't have the stopping power to kill effectively. In many of the original loadings it would just go right through you, with little wounding potential. Now it tumbles, but it doesn't do that as well as one would like. It's very good against barriers, but it lacks range and a flat trajectory as well as velocity.
6.5 Grendel is almost universally superior. Not that I' saying the Grendel should be the main battle round, but it is certainly better then 7.62x39.
 
A soldier needs to be able to carry as much ammo as possible. This eliminates the 308, and the 30-06. The 223 is a weak round, and especially weak in the m-4 short barrelled varient. the 7.62 is the choice of the oppisition, but fits the bill. If the 6mm has close to the same ballistics, it would be better than a glorified 22lr., and our soldiers would not have to rely on the 223 "tumble" myth.
 
A soldier needs to be able to carry as much ammo as possible. This eliminates the 308, and the 30-06. The 223 is a weak round, and especially weak in the m-4 short barrelled varient. the 7.62 is the choice of the oppisition, but fits the bill. If the 6mm has close to the same ballistics, it would be better than a glorified 22lr., and our soldiers would not have to rely on the 223 "tumble" myth.
I agree that a soldier needs to be able to carry as much ammunition as possible, which is why I wouldn't choose the 7.62 Soviet. The Russian round has an EPP of 39000, which is significantly less than the 5.56's EPP of 52000. Just for reference, the .308 Winchester has an EPP of 50000 and the 6.5 Grendel has an EPP of 59090.
So if you're talking weight for energy, you want the Grendel.
Of course, the 5.56 Zephyr has an EPP of 57000, as well as good range and energy retention.
I would also say that the 7.62 is not the choice of the opposition, they take what they can get.
 
As much as I hate to admit it, Deer Hunter makes a vaild point about the 5.56mm round. It does work and it allows soldiers to carry more ammo on their person. Personally, I favor a somewhat larger round with better "stopping power". But, I am speaking from a civilian perspective where I do not need an automatic weapon with hundreds of rounds on my person.

Consider the following point which has been made before. All the major world powers have adopted smaller rounds such as the 5.56mm. Why? Is it a "Commie trick" or is there a valid reason for these changes? The answer to this question has been offered many times. Smaller caliber rounds allow soldiers to carry more ammo and permit better controlled suppressing fire. Now, either this is true or all the major military powers are suffering from the same type of psychosis.


Timthinker
 
As we sit here talking about Holy Grails of ammo, standardization, and simpler logistics, the Russians are using 7.62x39mm, 5.45x39mm, 7.62x54mmR, and in smaller numbers the 9x39mm today in Chechnya. As much as I have looked for it, I cannot find any official or even "second hand" information that would argue they are having logistical problems supplying ammunition to troops. This would lead me to believe that it's not the standardizing of munitions that cures logistical problems, rather its the ability of the logistical element to deliver. Meaning, if they can deliver multiple types of heavy use munitions to the front lines with out problems, then they are doing a hell of a job and it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference if there was only one type of ammo being supplied.

I think the strive for "one round for all" is a joke. It'll never happen because the system we have today works. It works for us and other forces across the globe.

Think of tomorrow, someone invents a plasma/energy/etc. machine gun that uses a battery that can hold about 1,000-5,000 shots. Is the military going to say "we dont want it because it uses a proprietary battery, is not STANAG compatible, and doesn't use 5.56mm"!?!? Of course not! That would be a hell of a hand held suppressive fire weapon. Logistics can take a hike.

What does that have to do with the optimum cartridge? There has to be a HUGE advantage that is worth spending lots of money on. That is something 6.5mm grendel or whatever cartridge of the day does not provide.

Finally, I think the Chinese military is mysterious. They wanted one round for rifles, DMR, SAW, GPMG but created a replica of the 5.56mm and didn't bother to create something in between like the grendel and others.
 
After my long time trying to figure this problem out, the fact that I have reached the conclusion that a 5.56mm round is the most appropriate round for military use says something to its original design. My design is surprisingly little changed from the 5.56 NATO, merely having a shortened case and bigger, more streamlined bullet with a solid propellant. It would give you all of the weight benefits of the 5.56 NATO (weighing only .002 lbs more than that cartridge) with extended range and power. It would work better in carbines and is optimized at 2800 f/s out of a 15.25-inch barrel. Out of a bullpup rifle with a longer barrel, it would be significantly faster, possibly 3000 f/s.
I misspoke with the EPP of the 5.56 Zephyr, it's actually 63000, I compared apples to oranges (used a 20-inch barrel for all the other cartridges and a 15.25-inch barrel for the Zephyr).
the Russians are using 7.62x39mm, 5.45x39mm, 7.62x54mmR, and in smaller numbers the 9x39mm today in Chechnya.
I believe the 7.62x39 and 9x39mm rounds are only in use by special forces, but you'd have to ask Popenker.
 
The tumbling 5.56x45 is no myth. It's a well documented phenomenon that almost all non-expanding spitzer type bullets tumble, or at least reverse, when transiting tissue. The reason is that the center of gravity is behind the center of aerodynamic pressure. When spitzer type non-expanding bullets hit flesh, they are no longer properly stabilized for the medium they are in. They are more stable in a mass forward orientation - just like a dart, and tend to flip over. This is true of the 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and all other modern military bullets.

What makes the 5.56x45 M855 and M193 unique is the combination of high velocity, thin jacket and deep canneleur cause the round to tend to fracture and break into several pieces when it starts to flip.

ZigZagZeke makes a correct observation, but comes to an entirely wrong conclusion. Because modern low intensity warfare is primarily counter-insurgency operations in urbanized terrain, the basic war fighter formation is the infantry squad, typically on foot or in light vehicles. The weapons at hand are what are normally organic to the squad or fireteam, which means support weapons may be a ways off. In such a case, the rifle must function as general combat weapon, DMR and even light machinegun. It will have to deal with barriers that are typically found in urban areas. Further, body armor will probably increase in use amongst enemy personnel - particularly in the case of well funded insurgents finance with petro-dollars. Soft body armor has already been found in the hands of insurgents.

In the above scenarios, the soldier needs a weapon that can be used for precision fire (to limit collateral damage), counter-sniper operations, suppressive fire and house clearing.

While the 5.56 has performed astonishingly well as an infantry rifle, despite its critic, it does lack penetration and long range capability. This void has been filled by the DMR in 7.62, but this weapon is typically heavy and lacks firepower. Organic machineguns are even more of a problem, and the M249 has proved to be lacking in many respects.

Alternative rounds like the 6mm and 6.5mm intermediate rounds have extended range and penetration over the 5.56 and the 7.62x39, while retaining light weight and controllability under auto-fire. The 6.5 in particular has proven to be ideal for long range shooting.

If one envisions a modular weapon system with a single cartridge, it is easy to fill the roles of rifle, carbine, DMR and LMG with a single base system that is both adaptable and portable. Should heavier firepower be need, that could be provided by vehicle mounted weapon.

For those who advocate the 7.62x39, it has many problems. As noted, it has historically been a notoriously poor stopper. As noted, it tends to go right through a target, doing comparatively little damage. It's really not a well designed round ballistically speaking - but it was an easy transition, since like the German 7.92x33, could be made on existing (modified) machinery.

When paired with the right bullet, the 7.62x39 becomes much more capable - after all, the 6.5 Grendel is just a modified 6MM PPC, which in turn is derived from the 7.62x39.

In the past, the US has always gone into wars with the wrong weapon, designed around the last war Why not design a round that is more widely adaptable, so we don't have top dust off old designs, or create new ones to deal with the new situation.

Finally, and has been mentioned many, many times in this thread, the reality is that there will not be any changes in weapons or ammunition in the near future. What we have now is perceived as 'good enough', and small arms have the lowest priority when it comes to weapon systems. No one makes their career managing a rifle program.

The discussions underway here are really in the range of 'what if'. The ARC trials of the 1980s showed that the Army was not interested in any new small arm system or cartridge unless there were significant advantages - for example, at least a 100% increase in hit probability.
 
Of course this is a "what if" discussion, I love "what if" discussions.
All of my zombie discussions are "what if"s, for instance.
 
Organic machineguns are even more of a problem, and the M249 has proved to be lacking in many respects.

I don't mean to call you out or anything, but I would like to know how the M249 lacks in todays conflict zones.
 
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