The Gun Hose

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I think the whole idea of the 3rd burst on the M16A2 was actually to save ammo, to get away from the whole "spray and pray" idea. Granted the M4A1 has it's place, especially in the CQB arena, however, many a Garand and K98 were swung around corners clearing city dwellings all across Europe with much success. Sorry, I just thoroughly believe in the 7.62mm NATO round, and believe smaller, more compact weapons systems such as the M4 issued to troops with along M14s and 12 ga pump/semi shotguns provides a well proven and widely used platform for ground combat. Oh wait, the US has already figured that out.......

As far as a gun "hose", the MG42 filled the bill on that one;)
 
#4 buck is basically indoor stuff. It can be stopped by heavy clothing in as little as 25 yards. 00 Buck is only good to about 50 yards. Spheres are very ballistically inefficient.

Personally, I vote for smart HE projectiles like the XM-29 SABR was supposed to use, and are being tested with the XM-307.

But it is an interesting intellectual exercise.
 
Why not use a shotgun? For the same reason I wouldn't use a Garand: You only get (at max) 8 shots. Yeah, they hit hard, but you can't lay covering fire with a shotgun (not well, anyway). You can lay up to 275 rounds worth of covering fire with a "gun hose", which is much more than a shotgun. Also, the gun hose can shoot farther (special shotgun loads aside).

Here's a question:
Any of you ever used Essems (SMGs) in Halo 2? They were rather effective, no? Worthy weapons at least? Same difference with the "gun hose".
 
You forgot the gun that shoots around corners, and I don't mean the cornershot or the Krummlauf. I mean the hand grenade.
 
I own an SMG, and shoot it alot. I understand its limitations. There's a reason SMGs disappeared from the worlds armies after the introduction of the assault rifle. The assault rifle can basically do everything the SMG can, and more.
 
It is interesting that many of you are acting as if I believe this concept to be a "golden child". I don't. I don't even prefer this concept personally (I'm a shotgun boy), and I certainly wouldn't arm a military with it.
As I said before,
Note: I'm not trying to design something for the U.S. military, I'm just trying to design something.
Click to expand...
I merely have thought of a concept that would work, but fate (and logistics) have taken a different route, and so it is essentially moot. It's just interesting, and some people had some questions about it. I honestly never thought I'd be talking about the concept past the first time it was mentioned (which is why I didn't bother to think of a decent name), I created it to represent an extreme, really. Aimed, long range fire versus mass, short range fire.
You guys got me all hopped up about it dang it! :cuss::D
 
If you don't know what Halo 2 is, don't bother, it is unimportant.
It's a videogame. And don't get started on the "videogames aren't real life" track, because I know and that wasn't the point of the statement.
The "Essems" as they are lovingly called by the players are much closer to a P90 than a submachine gun, so the SMGs thing doesn't pertain, but you didn't know, so don't worry about it.
 
As a saturation weapon in urban environments, it is laughable.

There's already problems with 5.56mm NATO penetrating urban barriers, and you want to use something SMALLER than 5.56mm NATO? Many on this forum have said that effective suppression fire is fire that kills, not just makes a bunch of noise, and I agree.

Another thing, wasn't it the Spetznas who started using 7.62mm AKM rifles instead 5.45mm AK74's because of the penetration issues in urban Chechnya? I've seen some pictures of them with AKM's and 75rd drums. There's your gun hose concept. Sure it's a heavier weapon than what Nolo was thinking about but it's a trade off, more urban penetration and power for more weight. The Russians don't seem to mind. Oh and I've also seen German KSK with G36K rifles and 100rd beta-c drums.

BTW, the "gun hose" concept was used at one point by the Russians in WW2. If I recall correctly, they armed entire battalions with PPSH41 7.62x25mm SMG's and 71rd drums and 1 7.62x54mm LMG in every squad to balance things out. Today, that PPSH has been replaced by the AK. They haven't went back.:D
 
I'd rather have 8 rounds of what is a proven man-stopper at 25 yards than 275 rounds of a cartridge that's smaller than .22Lr, which would be the 4mm you suggested. Lest you make a long case, with a massive powder charge and even then, I doubt it'd be useful at much longer range. It'd be a what? 10 grain projectile?

Sorry dude, it's a cool idea in video games, but in real life, it's just plain ineffective. There's a reason that the P90 isn't more widely used. The 5.7 is a bad man-stopper.
 
Evil Monkey, you are sidestepping everything I have said. Let me make this plain and clear to you:
:mad:I DON'T REALLY LIKE GUN HOSES! I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT A NOVEL CONCEPT! IN ANOTHER TIME(LINE), THEY'D BE FIELDABLE, BUT NOT TODAY, NOT NOW!:mad:
There. I apologize for the belligerence, I'm prone to it.
 
Nameless_Hobo, I asked you not to do the whole "video games and real life" thing, the point was well illustrated with the game. Especially considering I figured that many more of you would have played it than had used a P90 in combat. I was wrong, the numbers are dead even: 0 per.
Did I not say that the ideal cartridge for a "gun hose" would be 4.6x30mm, which is more powerful than a 22LR?
And what are you sorry for? The fact that you think that a concept I'm not particular to sucks?
Okay.
 
Considering I took the high road about three times prior to try and explain that fact of information to him and a couple of others, I think I'm okay.
And you could have left off the "video game player" part. It's practically a given that 16-year-olds in this day and age will be familiar with video games, especially one so popular as Halo 2.
I once worked on a project for iRobot Corporation with the goal to format Xbox 360 controllers to control PackBot EOD robots in Iraq, because the 18-, 19- and 20-year old soldiers over there are much more familiar with them than the previous control system. No joke, Xbox 360 are being shipped to Iraq to control the latest batch and updated PackBots in Iraq. And no, I was not a paperboy. I was hired as an intern because of my experience with vidoegames.
 
I'm saying the concept works in video games, not comparing video games to real life. Reading comprehension is vital.

"I'm sorry, dude it's a cool idea in video games..." is a nice way of saying it's stupid, ineffective, and suits 13 year olds who can't aim better than real combat.
I can be belligerent, as well.

You're getting to defensive, calm down, you'll live longer.

Also, I would rather have a .22 than a 4.6. It's a larger caliber. Like 9mm versus .45, really. Fast and small or big and slow. Either will work, it's up to you to deside which you think works better.
 
I once worked on a project for iRobot Corporation with the goal to format Xbox 360 controllers to control PackBot EOD robots in Iraq, because the 18-, 19- and 20-year old soldiers over there are much more familiar with them than the previous control system. No joke, Xbox 360 are being shipped to Iraq to control the latest batch and updated PackBots in Iraq. And no, I was not a paperboy. I was hired as an intern because of my experience with vidoegames.
Click to expand...

I'm not completely video game retarded, I used to have an Atari, still might as a matter of fact. We didn't get cool stuff like that at Pope, just C130Es older than most of us on the flightline. Real aircraft have a yoke, not a damn joystick:D
 
SigfanUSAF, I never said you were. Just behind a rather unimportant curve right now. If you had to drive the PackBot with the darn pucks that it uses, you'd be thankful for the controller, too.
And the concept would be perfectly fine in real life, for its mission, but you'd have to cater your tactics to it and do a bunch of other things that I don't think anyone is willing to even think about doing right now.
As for the videogames thing, I shouldn't have mentioned it, it was unprofessional. I was merely trying to connect to with certain people, not realizing that I was talking to a bunch of 30- to 40-year olds. And, just as a footnote, the "Essems" in Halo are (not very much) little like the "gun hose" concept.
As for caliber, I'd rather have a 12 gauge than anything else. That's me. These soldiers (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that I'm not) are primarily worried about 2 things from their weapons: How effective they are and how heavy they are. Yes, a big, slow bullet may be just as (or more) effective as a small, fast one, but lead weighs more than smokeless powder.
We don't want to weigh them down, hence the EPP.
I imagine that even my beloved 12 gauge would get a low EPP rating.
 
Nolo, usually when someone makes a thread about a concept or otherwise, I would assume you're trying to convince others to accept the idea being portrayed. I disagree with the idea and, therefore, I will destroy any one and everybody who agrees with an idea that I don't like. :evil:

BTW, the smg's in Halo suck on epic proportions. All you need is the n00b combo. lolz :D
 
The n00b combo involves Essems half of the time.
And I'd like to see you try and back up that statement outside the fairyland of the internet. But this is the high road.
How about we move to The Back Alley?
 
Nolo, I hear you like gun hoses! just teasing. Seriously though, from what I've read the Illarco was developed for, and marketed to prisons. The idea being that the guards would be able to control prison riots with less lethal but sustainable firepower to dissuade inmates. It is also my understanding that the prisons didn't buy them and typically use Mini-14s. I bet there are some correctional officers on here that might know about it.
 
Are you familiar with the 5.45x18mm round? It might be something along the lines of what you're looking for.

545x18_wolf.jpg


It's a Soviet pocket pistol cartridge that was used in the ultacompact PSM automatic. As you can see, it's an extremely small bottlenecked round.

Typically the round has a steel core bullet, giving it reasonable penetration (read: better than .22 lr).

Individually it's not going to do much to a person, but that's what your 1800 RPM cyclic rate of fire is for.

I have visions swimming in my head of a blowback action attached to a huge helical magazine.
 
Mega BB Hose!

If it's going to be 4.6x30mm then something like "Mega BB Hose" comes to mind. As far as rate of fire, I think using 3 barrels, each spewing about 1,500 RPM for a total of 4,500 RPM would be well, just spiffy if you had 300+ rd magazines, a trunkload of ammo, 15 minutes, and a pallet of pop to blast.

Even better if you had a motorized Gatling type system w/ 6, maybe up to 10 barrels. :evil:

However I personally would view such a gun as more of an interesting novelty than as a weapon until somebody(else) used one in combat. I just don't have much confidence in a bunch of hypersonic BB diameter projectiles, no matter what the rate of fire is.
 
in regards to the AA-12, how about we take that one step further and make a belt fed 12guage. you could do it off of a M2 machine gun, shorten the distance the bolt travels, modify the links and change the barrel. along with probably 100 other small changes needed.

Now thats a crowd stopper, imagine one of those on top of a truck loaded with less than lethal rubber shot. that would bring a whole world of hurt on a bunch of people.
 
Well, sure, if you were to make a mounted AA-12, then that'd be the way to go.
5.45x18mm is similar to the round that I had in mind. But it's essentially similar to .17HM2, no? Well, except larger and not rimmed. But a similar concept.
Let's rank up some candidates:
.17HM2
.17HMR
4.6x30mm
5.7x28mm
5.45x18mm
Yes, the sort of gun you suggested, ConfuseUs, would be a novelty. However, it is a little distinct from a true "gun hose"
And maybe I should note that a "gun hose"'s maximum weight is 10 pounds with the magazine. I don't think I said that before.
 
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