Deer Hunter
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Which it does under 150 yards, on average, for our soldiers right now using the green-tip 62 grain bullets. The new 77 grain load looks even better.
The Ultimate Combat Round
- Thread starter Nolo
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Nolo
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On average could be 51% of the time. Not good enough. Not for me.
Why abide by the silly Hague Convention? I don't think anyone still cares about that part of the HC anymore (maybe the Euros, but their boys aren't getting shot), so why keep it up? Go frangible.
Why abide by the silly Hague Convention? I don't think anyone still cares about that part of the HC anymore (maybe the Euros, but their boys aren't getting shot), so why keep it up? Go frangible.
Deer Hunter
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So couldn't you simply load the 5.56 hotter?
The M16/AR-15 locking system is rated at about 55,000 PSI. In order to get M855 to a spec'd velocity of 3000 fps from a 20 inch bbl, you need about 53,800 PSI in military brass. There's not much you can do in the way of increasing pressure.
Nolo
Member
Yeah, I didn't think the M855 was that fast.
Guntech, I think they did it to get more rounds in less space. Though, to be fair, they seem to have taken up the same amount of space with the 5.45 as with the 7.62.
But the rounds are significantly lighter.
Guntech, I think they did it to get more rounds in less space. Though, to be fair, they seem to have taken up the same amount of space with the 5.45 as with the 7.62.
But the rounds are significantly lighter.
Without a doubt, the M74 is smaller and lighter than the M43. And has about 5gn less capacity. It doesn't quite measure up to the 223. IIRC, it's about a 50gn projectile at 3000 fps, vs the M193 with a 55gn projectile at 3300 fps or the M855 with a 62gn projectile at 3000 fps.
Tony will undoubtedly correct me (and rightly so).
Tony will undoubtedly correct me (and rightly so).
Interesting read on the wounding potential of the M74 round
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200112/ai_n9010648/pg_1
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200112/ai_n9010648/pg_1
This discussion about non-HC round has me thinking. I've been using Barnes TSX in my 223 for hunting, and I wonder how this bullet would rate as a practical round. It has good penetration, and also a very good reputation on game.
Can anyone suggest some tests for this bullet? Gelatin tests are already available. Plus, it's an all copper bullet - more environmentally friendly that lead.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/x-citing-facts/
http://www.videosift.com/video/Hollow-Point-Bullet-Through-Gelatine
Can anyone suggest some tests for this bullet? Gelatin tests are already available. Plus, it's an all copper bullet - more environmentally friendly that lead.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/x-citing-facts/
http://www.videosift.com/video/Hollow-Point-Bullet-Through-Gelatine
Nolo
Member
I have a question:
What is the difference between case volume of the 5.56 and the 5.45?
It seems like they should have roughly equal case volume, but the 5.45 performs so much worse than the 5.56.
What is the difference between case volume of the 5.56 and the 5.45?
It seems like they should have roughly equal case volume, but the 5.45 performs so much worse than the 5.56.
Nolo
Member
That explains it.
Why don't they load it hotter?
Why don't they load it hotter?
SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
I would only contest this in terms of Asym Warfare, in that the expense and psychological damage of wounded troops, along with the immediate care and attention required can be equal if not worse at times than a KIA.
gotta love the .308
5.56 comes in a close second for me, but the 308 is quite the handsome chap in the fray
PercyShelley
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My guess?
Because it's steel-cased.
How about we take a harder look at the 220 Russian. There are already some decent, high BC bullets in the .5 region that ought to be able to fill out the OAL, and since the case taper isn't changed versus M43, it ought to feed from AK magazines.
Does a perfect combat round exist? Absolutely not. There are too many factors at play. From target armour, to range, to compatability with existing platforms (or not)--and that's the easy question. The tougher question, the one that has nothing to do with chamber pressure, is the big picture. Does the US war machine and NATO have the resources to change? The answer is no. Until a significant change occurs in infantry tactics that necessitates a change, change will not occur.
We will not see a 6-7mm universal infantry round for 10 to 20 years, until the M16/M4 will be neary the end of it's life cycle. At that time, metallic cartridges may no longer be the best option.
What we will see is continued development of 5.56mm. Imagine a 77gr. round with continued fragmentation performance and enhanced penetration capability. That's next.
We will not see a 6-7mm universal infantry round for 10 to 20 years, until the M16/M4 will be neary the end of it's life cycle. At that time, metallic cartridges may no longer be the best option.
What we will see is continued development of 5.56mm. Imagine a 77gr. round with continued fragmentation performance and enhanced penetration capability. That's next.
Improved powders:
Quoted from Page 11 of the January 2008 Rifle Magazine.
"HODGDON, ETC.
Since a good number of Rifle readers are handloaders, Hodgdon the folks who market and/or manufacture several powders, including Hodgdon, IMR,
Winchester and Vihtavuori, as well as Pyrodex and Triple Seven has introduced a canister powder they are calling a “technological wonder,” HYBRID 100V. With the moniker like that you would expect a three-wheeled Toyoishu that runs on a mix of U-235 and moose urine. Early returns indicate optimum velocities around 100 fps faster than current standards with a 150 grain bullet in the .300 Weatherby Magnum. As a rule, the fit is with H-4350.
Chris Hodgdon tells us HYBRID 100V is a mix of spherical and extruded shape kernels that help the powder pour accurately and smoothly through a measure, which, in turn, should aid accuracy. Delivery is expected in the
spring of 2008. This powder should be a nice fit for the 110, 120 and 130 grain TTSX in the .270, 7mm and .300 magnums, respectively including short/fat, aka “chubby,” and belted."
Here's more:
"Media Release
Contact:
Chris Hodgdon
Marketing/Sales
Hodgdon Powder Company
Phone: 913-362-9455 ext 120
Fax: 913-362-1307
Email: [email protected]
October 2007
For Immediate Release
Hybrid 100V™ - a technological marvel
Shawnee Mission Kansas, October 2, 2007 – Hodgdon®-The Gun Powder People™, supplier of Hodgdon®, IMR®, Winchester®, and Vihtouvori® smokeless propellants, as well as Pyrodex® and Triple Se7en® muzzleloading Pellets and Granular propellants, introduces HYBRID 100V™. This is a technological wonder that marries two technologies: the chemistry of a Spherical powder with the geometry of an Extruded propellant.
Ideal for use in calibers that fit H4350, HYBRID 100V delivers stunning velocities not seen before in a variety of popular cartridges, such as 3,310fps for a 150-grain bullet in the 300 Weatherby Magnum –nearly 100fps faster than the nearest competitor. Its unique small grain, part Spherical, part Extruded shape benefits the handloader in two ways; the powder accurately flows smoothly and easily through a measure and charge weights are consistent for ideal load density and pinpoint accuracy. HYBRID 100V sets the performance standard with a winning precision target shooting and big game hunting experience.
HYBRID 100V in one and eight pound containers will be at Hodgdon dealers everywhere spring 2008. Complete data is complementary and available 24/7 at the hodgdon.com Reloading Data Center. For more information contact Hodgdon Powder Company at 913-362-9455 or by mail at 6231 Robinson, Shawnee Mission Kansas 66202. For your powder choice it’s Hodgdon, the Brand that’s True."
So it looks like the "Light Magnum" powders are coming to market. This http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html link has a picture of the granules and mentions powders for small capacity cases.
Quoted from Page 11 of the January 2008 Rifle Magazine.
"HODGDON, ETC.
Since a good number of Rifle readers are handloaders, Hodgdon the folks who market and/or manufacture several powders, including Hodgdon, IMR,
Winchester and Vihtavuori, as well as Pyrodex and Triple Seven has introduced a canister powder they are calling a “technological wonder,” HYBRID 100V. With the moniker like that you would expect a three-wheeled Toyoishu that runs on a mix of U-235 and moose urine. Early returns indicate optimum velocities around 100 fps faster than current standards with a 150 grain bullet in the .300 Weatherby Magnum. As a rule, the fit is with H-4350.
Chris Hodgdon tells us HYBRID 100V is a mix of spherical and extruded shape kernels that help the powder pour accurately and smoothly through a measure, which, in turn, should aid accuracy. Delivery is expected in the
spring of 2008. This powder should be a nice fit for the 110, 120 and 130 grain TTSX in the .270, 7mm and .300 magnums, respectively including short/fat, aka “chubby,” and belted."
Here's more:
"Media Release
Contact:
Chris Hodgdon
Marketing/Sales
Hodgdon Powder Company
Phone: 913-362-9455 ext 120
Fax: 913-362-1307
Email: [email protected]
October 2007
For Immediate Release
Hybrid 100V™ - a technological marvel
Shawnee Mission Kansas, October 2, 2007 – Hodgdon®-The Gun Powder People™, supplier of Hodgdon®, IMR®, Winchester®, and Vihtouvori® smokeless propellants, as well as Pyrodex® and Triple Se7en® muzzleloading Pellets and Granular propellants, introduces HYBRID 100V™. This is a technological wonder that marries two technologies: the chemistry of a Spherical powder with the geometry of an Extruded propellant.
Ideal for use in calibers that fit H4350, HYBRID 100V delivers stunning velocities not seen before in a variety of popular cartridges, such as 3,310fps for a 150-grain bullet in the 300 Weatherby Magnum –nearly 100fps faster than the nearest competitor. Its unique small grain, part Spherical, part Extruded shape benefits the handloader in two ways; the powder accurately flows smoothly and easily through a measure and charge weights are consistent for ideal load density and pinpoint accuracy. HYBRID 100V sets the performance standard with a winning precision target shooting and big game hunting experience.
HYBRID 100V in one and eight pound containers will be at Hodgdon dealers everywhere spring 2008. Complete data is complementary and available 24/7 at the hodgdon.com Reloading Data Center. For more information contact Hodgdon Powder Company at 913-362-9455 or by mail at 6231 Robinson, Shawnee Mission Kansas 66202. For your powder choice it’s Hodgdon, the Brand that’s True."
So it looks like the "Light Magnum" powders are coming to market. This http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html link has a picture of the granules and mentions powders for small capacity cases.
Nolo
Member
I had an idea last night while in bed.
Why not blow out a 5.56 case to 9mm (don't make it straight-walled, just de-neck it), and then use a 77- or 82-grain streamlined 5.56mm bullet inside a sabot?
Wouldn't that give you better velocity because of the larger base upon which to push (plus the powders wouldn't have to circumvent a neck, just push and go)?
Why not blow out a 5.56 case to 9mm (don't make it straight-walled, just de-neck it), and then use a 77- or 82-grain streamlined 5.56mm bullet inside a sabot?
Wouldn't that give you better velocity because of the larger base upon which to push (plus the powders wouldn't have to circumvent a neck, just push and go)?
Deer Hunter
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- Dec 26, 2005
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- 4,097
Sabots have shoddy accuracy potential, from what I've seen with certain .30/22 sabots.
Nolo
Member
I was wondering whether they would destabilize the bullet. Seems like they do.
I also have played around with cartridge cases in my Load From a Disk software. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to import anything to here.:banghead: But I've been playing around with .470 diameter cases to increase capacity while keeping the 2.265" OAL so as to fit the current platform. Imagine the 6.5 BR but with the case lengthened to 1.6". I had a member here double stack .45 ACP(same diameter brass) in his 6.5 Grendel mag so a shortened 6.5 Lapua or Creedmore might function from Grendel mags. If not, although it would require some milling to the inside of the magwell, I don't see why M1A or AR-10 mags can't be shortened to fit. So, instead of using the 7.62x39 or 45 case diameter why not go bigger? The .470 AR-15 bolt heads are available.
The Brass wouldn't allow retrofitting 6.8 or 6.5 uppers and mags, as much as I wish that they would I don't see them issuing a completely new, longer OAL platform. It seems to me that the only way to increase case capacity over the 6.5G is to use wider brass, a touch longer overall, and a short neck.
Reliable feeding? I don't hear any complaints about the 45 ACP feeding and it's way shorter than 2.265. And with a much larger meplat bullet.
The Brass wouldn't allow retrofitting 6.8 or 6.5 uppers and mags, as much as I wish that they would I don't see them issuing a completely new, longer OAL platform. It seems to me that the only way to increase case capacity over the 6.5G is to use wider brass, a touch longer overall, and a short neck.
Reliable feeding? I don't hear any complaints about the 45 ACP feeding and it's way shorter than 2.265. And with a much larger meplat bullet.
Nolo
Member
Okay, assuming a 6.5mm bullet at 2800/2900 f/s (6.5x45mm GT; 6.7x45mm Firebrand), I've come up with a rifle to match:
It's called the Keti Assault Rifle (after a dotcomrade of mine who took interest in it early on), it's based on the AK-47 action scaled down slightly and modified significantly. The action hinges open like an FAL or M16 and has an M16-style safety/selector and magwell. The stocks shown are very basic (stocks with rails and variable positions are in the works) as are the sights. The small black area just forward and over the trigger guard is actually the mag release; it didn't show up well when I scanned the picture. The rifle is chambered for 6.5 GT or 6.7 Firebrand (both are approximately the same length, 6.5 GT is 2mm longer than 6.7 Firebrand) and has a 30-round magazine for each. There really isn't much else to say about it, it's relatively conventional, just a collage of good features taken from various other rifles.
It's called the Keti Assault Rifle (after a dotcomrade of mine who took interest in it early on), it's based on the AK-47 action scaled down slightly and modified significantly. The action hinges open like an FAL or M16 and has an M16-style safety/selector and magwell. The stocks shown are very basic (stocks with rails and variable positions are in the works) as are the sights. The small black area just forward and over the trigger guard is actually the mag release; it didn't show up well when I scanned the picture. The rifle is chambered for 6.5 GT or 6.7 Firebrand (both are approximately the same length, 6.5 GT is 2mm longer than 6.7 Firebrand) and has a 30-round magazine for each. There really isn't much else to say about it, it's relatively conventional, just a collage of good features taken from various other rifles.
Nolo
Member
As an interesting aside, I designed a semiauto version on the Keti to fire a big ole' honking .50-caliber cartridge based off of the .500 S&W lengthened to fit the OAL of the rifle. The rifle had an 8" barrel and was able to work off of the lower of the Keti. Haven't named it yet, and I'm still working on the design.
Tony Williams
Member
You're far from the first to think of that one
To get a 9mm calibre on the 5.56x45 case it would in fact have to be straight, with no shoulder at all. My idea was to use a full-calibre bullet for close-in engagements against unprotected personnel (plus a heavy-bullet subsonic version would work very well with a suppressor) and a saboted tungsten-alloy bullet to deal with body armour, or reach out a long way.
The benchrest accuracy with a sabot would be down somewhat, but the high velocity and flat trajectory would compensate for that under combat conditions.
Nolo
Member
How much velocity would you get from that?
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