thinking about getting a Tokarev: CZ52 or M57?

[starling]

A few years ago, while googling for Tokarev info, I was led to some Pakistani gun owners forum. The most devoted 1911 fan in this country has nothing on those guys and their Tokarevs. They revere them. Pics of custom Tok’s, engraved Tok’s, combat stories, and discussion of different makers.
The first Tokarev I owned was a battered and pitted Chinese made 1966 Vietnam bring back that somebody parkarized pitting and all. The bore? You could see rifling…rifling that saw a lot of corrosive ammo and not much cleaning.
Still, that pistol worked perfectly. Pretty accurate, too. In those days, there was a lot of cheap Chinese steel case, copper washed ammo. The muzzle flash at the indoor range was big and bright, lol…impressive.

Its a very neglected design throughout history. Mostly untouched from its original form. They have a few shortcommings but that would have been dealt with long ago had it had the refinement that we see on the 1911. Strange ergos and ability to be safe when chambered (hammer down) have always held it back. The Chinese worked some on that to a degree and there have been different with safety systems that worked to a degree (most of the time). The ergos never really became refined other that attempts with grip geometry. Biggest problem for me is there is no aftermarket support. Magical things could be done with Tokarevs given a good supply of quality aftermarket parts that are oversized and reuire fitting for better precision. A very skilled machinist/welder could pull it off but finding one willing to put that effort into "Commie Crap" is practically impossible.

Tokarev could very well be the most underapreciated, mass produced pistol in History from the view of a firearms enthusiest. In many ways they are the first real Automag. JMB hands are all over the design so its funny to me when Browning 1911 fans hold them with so much disdain.

 

[starling]

Les is...errr...rather strongly opinionated about certain things! He has little use for non- 1911 guns and any pistol caliber smaller than .45.

I doubt he even knows what Cz stands for.

Well... hes a stubborn perfectionist. Thats the way that works. Everyone has a bit of that in them. Its hard to get people like that interested in things outside their wheelbox.

 

[kje54]

I have a M57 and had a CZ52 which I sold many years ago, needed the money at the time and wish I had never sold it. I'm the opposite of many here, I have HUGE hands and found the CZ ergonomics better than the Tok. which I found uncomfortable to hold.
I actually put an after market slip on grip on my M57 making it much more comfortable to handle. The slide was pretty beat up, most of the finish was gone so I rattle canned it. Yeah, what I did to my M57 will probably cause a few to cringe but that's their problem not mine.

 

[starling]

I have a M57 and had a CZ52 which I sold many years ago, needed the money at the time and wish I had never sold it. I'm the opposite of many here, I have HUGE hands and found the CZ ergonomics better than the Tok. which I found uncomfortable to hold.
I actually put an after market slip on grip on my M57 making it much more comfortable to handle. The slide was pretty beat up, most of the finish was gone so I rattle canned it. Yeah, what I did to my M57 will probably cause a few to cringe but that's their problem not mine.

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Nope not me. You addressed the ergos. Hopefully your safety is fitted well. The commercial Zatavas do not have the half cock so its pretty important Slide finish is personal preference so that doesnt really matter outside of your interests. I cant tell if thats a military or commercial model. Military ones are a little better in terms of fitting and Materials (better steel IMO). Commercial ones have a more sound safety design (provided it was fitted right).

I think you did a good job. They sure carry nice dont they? One of my carry pistols is a 9mm that has parts from all kinds of different places. I had to go that route to get the fitting dialed in where I wanted it. Frame and chrome lined barrel are chinese, slide is romanian, most of the small parts are Radom/Polish etc. Its accurate (for a tokarev) and will digest anything and everything I have tried in it. Its one of my main shooters.

Currently I have 4 bins of Tokarev parts and around 15 frames so Tok building is not a cheap hobby. Its Labor of love type stuff. They are about as plug and play friendly as a 1911 but without any aftermarket support so I practically never recomend them to builders unless they want to be broke all the time. I fully admit to getting seduced into a money pit with Toks but I am a huge fan of them so its all good.

I think you did a nice job. Once they are dialed in they practically run forever so in that aspect they are fine carry pistols. They like to run wet so grease on the rails is your friend. I just use white lithium most of the time.

 

[Smaug]

I shot a Tok a few weeks ago at the range; it was pretty fun. It had been modified to put a safety lever in the trigger face, which pretty much ruined it though.

I just sold a CZ-82, which is a cracking little gun. Chrome-lined bore, so you can shoot the cheap corrosive ammo too!

 

[kje54]

Nope not me. You addressed the ergos. Hopefully your safety is fitted well. The commercial Zatavas do not have the half cock so its pretty important Slide finish is personal preference so that doesnt really matter outside of your interests. I cant tell if thats a military or commercial model. Military ones are a little better in terms of fitting and Materials (better steel IMO). Commercial ones have a more sound safety design (provided it was fitted right).

I think you did a good job. They sure carry nice dont they? One of my carry pistols is a 9mm that has parts from all kinds of different places. I had to go that route to get the fitting dialed in where I wanted it. Frame and chrome lined barrel are chinese, slide is romanian, most of the small parts are Radom/Polish etc. Its accurate (for a tokarev) and will digest anything and everything I have tried in it. Its one of my main shooters.

Currently I have 4 bins of Tokarev parts and around 15 frames so Tok building is not a cheap hobby. Its Labor of love type stuff. They are about as plug and play friendly as a 1911 but without any aftermarket support so I practically never recomend them to builders unless they want to be broke all the time. I fully admit to getting seduced into a money pit with Toks but I am a huge fan of them so its all good.

I think you did a nice job. Once they are dialed in they practically run forever so in that aspect they are fine carry pistols. They like to run wet so grease on the rails is your friend. I just use white lithium most of the time.

Thanks. Unfortunately the safety was added to comply with US import regs and didn't work most of the time so I removed it so I wouldn't be tempted to rely on it. I also never carry it now as I have others I like more so other than range times it's a safe queen. The only reason I bought it was due to the 500+ rounds I still had from when I owned the CZ52, once those are gone I might sell it, maybe.

 

[kje54]

I shot a Tok a few weeks ago at the range; it was pretty fun. It had been modified to put a safety lever in the trigger face, which pretty much ruined it though.

I just sold a CZ-82, which is a cracking little gun. Chrome-lined bore, so you can shoot the cheap corrosive ammo too!

My CZ82 is my night stand firearm.

 

[starling]

Thanks. Unfortunately the safety was added to comply with US import regs and didn't work most of the time so I removed it so I wouldn't be tempted to rely on it. I also never carry it now as I have others I like more so other than range times it's a safe queen. The only reason I bought it was due to the 500+ rounds I still had from when I owned the CZ52, once those are gone I might sell it, maybe.

Nah... keep it. AI reliable tokarev isnt really worth all that much once its been modified and they are fantastic soft shooters and great for utilitarian purposed. The 7.62x25 has kind of magical penetrative abilities. I carry one on the trail with the kids a good bit just in case some crazy pitt bull tries to have a go at my children. Those dogs have some tough skulls. Last thing I want to do is have to kill someones dog but I have seen people get torn apart by those dogs once they get into that mode and there is really no other way to stop them.

Keep your Tok. You wont get much for it anyways. The Ammo isnt that expensive if you get it when the runs come in. Its basically a Magnum Class semi auto that shoots soft at its core.

Oh.. if thats a milspec Zastava keep that hammer on half cock when its chambered. Playing with fire there. They are not safe..hammer fully down on a full chamber. Its one of the quirks with toks. You should have a half cock on that pistol if its milspec. The commercial slide safety models got rid of that.

 

[kje54]

Nah... keep it. AI reliable tokarev isnt really worth all that much once its been modified and they are fantastic soft shooters and great for utilitarian purposed. The 7.62x25 has kind of magical penetrative abilities. I carry one on the trail with the kids a good bit just in case some crazy pitt bull tries to have a go at my children. Those dogs have some tough skulls. Last thing I want to do is have to kill someones dog but I have seen people get torn apart by those dogs once they get into that mode and there is really no other way to stop them.

Keep your Tok. You wont get much for it anyways. The Ammo isnt that expensive if you get it when the runs come in. Its basically a Magnum Class semi auto that shoots soft at its core.

Oh.. if thats a milspec Zastava keep that hammer on half cock when its chambered. Playing with fire there. They are not safe..hammer fully down on a full chamber. Its one of the quirks with toks. You should have a half cock on that pistol if its milspec. The commercial slide safety models got rid of that.

I was taught (former law enforcement) to keep the chamber empty when carrying and to chamber a round as you draw it from the holster. I've practiced for decades and I can draw and rack it in one motion. I know that is a contentious practice among many but it's the way I carry my semi-autos and I've heard all the arguments......... They carry the way they want and I'll carry the way I want.

 

[starling]

I was taught (former law enforcement) to keep the chamber empty when carrying and to chamber a round as you draw it from the holster. I've practiced for decades and I can draw and rack it in one motion. I know that is a contentious practice among many but it's the way I carry my semi-autos and I've heard all the arguments......... They carry the way they want and I'll carry the way I want.

You are not alone. I do the same

 

[Smaug]

I was taught (former law enforcement) to keep the chamber empty when carrying and to chamber a round as you draw it from the holster. I've practiced for decades and I can draw and rack it in one motion. I know that is a contentious practice among many but it's the way I carry my semi-autos and I've heard all the arguments......... They carry the way they want and I'll carry the way I want.

That makes more sense for open carry (as cops do) than for concealed carry. An open carrier is more likely to have someone try to take the gun from him when he's not expecting it than a CCL. That extra time the perp would need to chamber a round could save the officer's life.

I guess it could be fine for a nightstand gun too, but for CC? Bad idea. You might need it ready to go in that split second or might need that off hand for something else. Please re-think this!

 

[halfmoonclip]

...Actually though... Im not sure Gas delayed even exhisted in pistols when the CZ52 was designed. Hmmmm. Maybe someone here knows? Was the Steyr the first mass produced Gas delayed pistol in 1968? HK P7 was 76 I think.

Starling, if memory serves, gas delay was first used in the last ditch Nazi 'volkspistole'; it was a pretty crude contraption. The current CCP Walther gets mixed reviews, at least is my understanding. The P7 is another matter; what a gun!
A bunch of us went to see Enemy at the Gates, and observed a young Nikita Kruschev, motivating the proletariat with a Tok.
We promptly tracked some down, and have enjoyed shooting them; never tried to reload any ammo. The Russian stuff was cheap enough.
Operating on different advice (the consensus then was that the roller lock CZ was uber-strong?), another buddy brought his CZ and some Czech sub-gun ammo. Our indoor range has a 1400'sec velocity maximum, out of concern for the backstop. He fired a couple three rounds, and they were literally striking fire off the steel backstop. Wish we'd chronoed the stuff.
Moon

 

[Handshaker]

I was bit by the Tok bug, I'm not sure if a Zastava M57 will be as pleasurable to shoot an the Circle 11 Tok.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

OK a few months ago i bought a Polish PPS-43C and love the hot 7.62x25. I dont really want a beat up WW2 relic unless its in very good condition. I also wish zastava would release some more M57a's in Chrome but.
What are everyone thoughts on which one to buy? I know the CZ has been mentioned as having a cast iron fire pin that can break.
thanks

I'm not sure if I remember perfectly but I'm pretty sure many people replaced those firing pins with some aftermarket one that was more durable. That said I would buy the cz52 over the m57. Besides that Achilles heel firing pin that's probably just about the toughest 7.62x25 handgun there is. It can handle ammo a lot hotter than the run-of-the-mill Tokarevs. Hey even though it goes way back to the fifties it still looks like some kind of ray gun from the movie Forbidden Planet or something! Personally I think it looks cool as hell. But nobody seems to sell really good 7.62x25 in much quantity anywhere these days. The domestic stuff is pretty watered down compared to that old military stuff.

 

[starling]

Starling, if memory serves, gas delay was first used in the last ditch Nazi 'volkspistole'; it was a pretty crude contraption. The current CCP Walther gets mixed reviews, at least is my understanding. The P7 is another matter; what a gun!
A bunch of us went to see Enemy at the Gates, and observed a young Nikita Kruschev, motivating the proletariat with a Tok.
We promptly tracked some down, and have enjoyed shooting them; never tried to reload any ammo. The Russian stuff was cheap enough.
Operating on different advice (the consensus then was that the roller lock CZ was uber-strong?), another buddy brought his CZ and some Czech sub-gun ammo. Our indoor range has a 1400'sec velocity maximum, out of concern for the backstop. He fired a couple three rounds, and they were literally striking fire off the steel backstop. Wish we'd chronoed the stuff.
Moon

Good tip I will look that up about the Volkspistole. Its ringng a bell. I think maybe it was the Mauser Prototype. Dont think any of them was ever taken past the prototype phase though. I kind of look at the HK VP70z as the first real Volkspistole. I shoot mine a few times a year. Kinda brilliant for a peoples pistole. My favorite magazine design is the VP70z.

CCP design is good but the craftsmanship is a disgrace for a walther. They look nice on the outside but the inside is pretty rough. I think there is potential there though. P7 is all kinds of crazy. Even crazier is how much people pay for them these days. Its become like a status symbol. They are neat and all but they aint that neat for me. HK was so proud of that pistol they didnt care if they even sold any.

The lock on the CZ is strong (provided the rollers are good). The chamber is the problem. If you look down a CZ barrel from the chamber end and run a rod though the diasembly index hole you can get an idea of how thin that chamber is at the 6 oclock position. Its pretty thing for a high preasure 7.62x25. Will it blow up on you? I dont trust it myself. I just run commercial stuff in my CZ52s and keep an eye on it. There are some American made 38 super barrels floating around for CZ52s but they are extremely rare. Im not sure they were ever put on the open market in any real numbers but I talked to the guy that made them. He used a different grade of steel. I dont thing I would trust that cartridge in a CZ52. CZ52 are more accurate though. I like them but not like the TT33s. If I was shooting distance I would take the CZ52 though.

Suprised you didnt get kicked off the range with that surplus 7.62x25. Most indoor ranges wont let you shoot it. That ammo was likely steel jacketed with a lead core giving you sparks which can be a fire hazard. Good thing you didnt blow yourselves up! HaHa. They sure do penetrate "things" nicely though.

 

[tark]

The domestic stuff is pretty watered down compared to that old military stuff.

NOT!!! I chronoed some Winchester white box 7.62X25 ammo and it is just as hot as the box stated, around 1650 FPS. That is most definitely NOT watered down.

And don't say you meant the "subgun ammo " That does not and never did exist. Just ask Johnnyc. He collects 7.62X25 ammo

 

[Capybara]

I own two CZ52s and a Romanian TTC, Chinese Tok and a Yugo M57. If you want a shooter to put a lot of rounds through, I think your Polish Tok was the way to go. As far as interesting C&R pistols though, I find the CZ 52 to be more interesting, if a bit less practical. The design is definitely unique and I think kind of cool. But the Toks are better to shoot overall. Harrington Products make all of the things you need to keep a CZ 52 running and happy so no big deal about the firing pins, extractors, etc. https://harringtonproducts.com/extractors/

My Romanian had a manual safety that someone took apart and lost the retainer spring so it just flops around. I just waited six months for some new Marschal Grips to arrive from Hungary that will cover the manual safety hole and dress up the TTC a bit. I have to say overall, I really dig both the Toks and the CZ 52 for different reasons. Both are cool in their own right, get one of each!

7.62x25 is a fun, loud and ridiculous velocity round that I also like shooting. Pretty expensive these days but a lot of fun.

 

[Capybara]

I'm not sure if I remember perfectly but I'm pretty sure many people replaced those firing pins with some aftermarket one that was more durable.

Yup. https://harringtonproducts.com/firing-pins/

 

[starling]

NOT!!! I chronoed some Winchester white box 7.62X25 ammo and it is just as hot as the box stated, around 1650 FPS. That is most definitely NOT watered down.

And don't say you meant the "subgun ammo " That does not and never did exist. Just ask Johnnyc. He collects 7.62X25 ammo

If my memory is right I think Winchester 7.62x25 is rebranded S&B (Im sure you know this already Tark) pretty hot stuff. I always try to stick to PPU because supposedly it is not as hot. On My CZ52s (and some commerial Norincos)I bought a bunch of 7.63x25 to be on the safer side. That Hot S&B 7.62x25 I run in well sprung Milspec Zastavas (good steel) that I weighted up the slides with along with increasing the hammer spring as best I could.

I dont know how much hotter that surplus subgun ammo is but I was always a little concerned on running it through my pistols. Plus its mostly corrosive which I hate.

Nice thing about the 9mm toks is you have a lot more options for softer loads (less expensive and easier to find as well) for range sessions. If people like shooting Toks a lot for recreation its worth it to get a 9mm as well. Nice that Zastava offers both chamberings on the commercial models. Norinco 9mms are still out there but they used some pretty soft steel on those compared to the Zastavas.

 

[kje54]

That makes more sense for open carry (as cops do) than for concealed carry. An open carrier is more likely to have someone try to take the gun from him when he's not expecting it than a CCL. That extra time the perp would need to chamber a round could save the officer's life.

I guess it could be fine for a nightstand gun too, but for CC? Bad idea. You might need it ready to go in that split second or might need that off hand for something else. Please re-think this!

Like I said I've heard all the arguments........ No need to rehash.

 

[Handshaker]

I am considering a chrome m57 once they become available again.

 

[starling]

I am considering a chrome m57 once they become available again.

Try to not buy one blind if you can avoid it. Its really best to handle one before you buy so you can test the fitting on the Safety to FCG interaction. A lot of mine were misfitted and I had to rework things a little to get them dialed in. They have a nasty habit of mislocating the the Magcatch hole drilled into the frame which can mess up the Last round hold open. Never run into these issues on the Military Spec pistols but its fairly common on the commercial variants. Commercial Zastavas are um.....Sloppy. Even for a Tokarev.

 

[Handshaker]

Try to not buy one blind if you can avoid it. Its really best to handle one before you buy so you can test the fitting on the Safety to FCG interaction. A lot of mine were misfitted and I had to rework things a little to get them dialed in. They have a nasty habit of mislocating the the Magcatch hole drilled into the frame which can mess up the Last round hold open. Never run into these issues on the Military Spec pistols but its fairly common on the commercial variants. Commercial Zastavas are um.....Sloppy. Even for a Tokarev.

Dooly noted, thanks

 

[starling]

Dooly noted, thanks

just trying to save you a headache. They are fantastic pistols once dialed in. A little loose and rough internally (exterior is nice) but they are priced well and the design is sound.

when you put those slide safeties on safe the trigger should NOT drop the hammer. If you feel any hitch when pulling the trigger with the safety on... thats the trigger bar nicking the bottom of the sear. thats not suppose to happen. Its still safe even if the hammer falls due to the safety blocking the fireing pin but its improper fitting or a short disconnector. The real root cause is the safety in the slide being slightly off but you cant relocate its position outside of buying a new slide. I work on these all the time so I have come across a bunch of weird stuff but that and the mag catch holes are the most common.

 

[Terry G]

Some of mine, the CZ 52 DID fire when I hit the hammer drop. Be advised.