thinking about getting a Tokarev: CZ52 or M57?

[tark]

HaHa.....Yeah thats about the typical response people have to the Tokarev or the 7.62x25

I get the impression that neither the gun or the caliber are your favorites!! Lol. To each, his own...

 

[starling]

I get the impression that neither the gun or the caliber are your favorites!! Lol. To each, his own...

Not at all. I was refering to what Les said. I have heard that "commie crap" line a bunch of times through the years.

Tokarev is one of my all time favorite designs and calibers. I "kinda" think its the best Military Pistol of its era. No offense to the 1911 crowd (those are great as well). Hard to choose between the two for me if I went back in a Time machine (7.62x25 VS 45ACP in battlefield conditions). 1911 in 38 super bridges the two a good bit. Biggest problem I ever had with the design is the safety issues and the ergos but the rest of the design and cartridge is so good I have just learned to live with the quirks and they dont bother me anymore. Ergos on the longer frame magwell Zatavas are quite a bit better. Some very subtle differences there that really help them point more like a 1911 (which is the gold standard in terms of ergos for me).

It would be really interesting to see what someone like yourself could do with the Tokarev. I suspect you could really tighten them up and accuraize one if you had your mind set on it.

 

[Handshaker]

If I had a DeLorean and went back in time and even though I have 1911's in 45acp, I would choose the Tok round. You could probably carry 2-3 times the ammo for the same weight. You could also shoot longer distances with less drop if need be.

 

[starling]

If I had a DeLorean and went back in time and even though I have 1911's in 45acp, I would choose the Tok round. You could probably carry 2-3 times the ammo for the same weight. You could also shoot longer distances with less drop if need be.

7.62x25mm just does such a great job at penetration out of a handgun. Its really special in that aspect. For a CCW in a civilian type environment it would be kind of dangerous because there are not a whole lot of defensive loads for it. Would be nice if someone like Liberty Defense made a load for 7.62x25 but I doubt that will ever happen because its such a niche round. Something like a trail gun or hunting seconday they fit very well. Ive always been suprised there are not more carbines out there chambered for it. Something like a Marlin Camp rifle in 7.62x25 would be an amazing firearm. Even an inexpensive little bolt action would be great. Say a Keystone Cricket sized rifle that could feed from a basic Tokarev magazine. It wouldnt have to be some tactical monstrosity. The cartridge has a lot of potential for crossover appeal into other areas..IE Hunting, Target shooting etc. as well as a defensive round.

 

[Handshaker]

And that's the beauty of reloading, you can load whatever you want and not just what's on the shelf. I loaded 500 Tok rounds with Hornady 90gr XTP bullets and 12gr of h110. Its a very nice and somewhat hot round I made for my pps-43c which I haven't shot yet but worked great my Circle 11 Tok.

 

[FL-NC]

What is the situation with ammo availability in that caliber? I remember at one time it was everywhere. Now I don't really see it so much- not that I'm looking for it.

 

[starling]

What is the situation with ammo availability in that caliber? I remember at one time it was everywhere. Now I don't really see it so much- not that I'm looking for it.

About the same as everything else outside of mainstream calibers. It comes in runs. Best to just buy it by the case instead of running around trying to find a box here and there. 7.62x25 has always been this way other than the blowout surplus from years ago.

 

[tark]

It would be really interesting to see what someone like yourself could do with the Tokarev. I suspect you could really tighten them up and accuraize one if you had your mind set on it.

Probably not much. When I was working for Les, I did frame to slide fitting and checkering. That was 85% of what I did. The real key to accuracy is barrel lockup and I had no experience in that area.

But I agree, it would be interesting to see how much accuracy could be squeezed out of the design.

 

[starling]

Probably not much. When I was working for Les, I did frame to slide fitting and checkering. That was 85% of what I did. The real key to accuracy is barrel lockup and I had no experience in that area.

But I agree, it would be interesting to see how much accuracy could be squeezed out of the design.

Understood. I have a couple builds that could use some slide to frame tightening but I dont have the guts to start pounding away on the rails yet. Still wrapping my head around how I am going to approach it. Not a whole lot of Tokarev specific tools out there.

Agreed.. whithout an aftermarket oversized hard fit barrel its going to be tough. A good welder could probably do it if they have the right skillset for tight barrel fitting. The bushings are not the tightest either.

Its to bad Les was so bias against the 7.62x25mm. There is so much aftermarket support for 1911s that milling out those magwells a little to fit the tokarev cartridge would have been the easiest way to go as far as a commercial standpoint goes. Magazines would pose some problems. Im not so sure a typical Tokarev magazine has the right angle. Standard mag would be too short (I think) so it would most likely have to be the 9 round Zastavas.

Would be nice if all these new 5.7 pistols offered a second offering in 7.62x25. Some fairly minor adjustments to the magazine and they should be pretty close to the mark for 7.62x25. There are a whole lot more 7.62x25s floating around than 5.7 pistols.

 

[tjh121]

And that's the beauty of reloading, you can load whatever you want and not just what's on the shelf. I loaded 500 Tok rounds with Hornady 90gr XTP bullets and 12gr of h110. Its a very nice and somewhat hot round I made for my pps-43c which I haven't shot yet but worked great my Circle 11 Tok.

I've found VV N105 works well in my TTC Tok. 10g with the XTP is around 1,400FPS.

 

[Handshaker]

That is the same FPS I am getting with h110 with 12 grs I would have probably used the VV if i didnt already have the h110 because it takes 2 grains less for the same FPS. So the cost of each loaded round would be less.

 

[Handshaker]

I am suppose to go look and maybe buy a CZ52 tomorrow. Any tips what to look for? It is in black, so i assume it was factory refurbished at one point.

 

[starling]

Handshaker......Check bore for corrosive ammo damage. Check Rollers for damage. Inspect Chamber at 6 oclock position for damge. Check Decocker (google pencil test) for damage.

 

[Snowdog]

I've owned a CZ52 and still own two Yugoslavian M57s. The M57 (in my opinion) is better in every conceivable way except aesthetics (the Cz52 has that futurist vibe going).
Both my Zastava M57s have the manual safety in the correct spot.

 

[Handshaker]

Thanks all

 

[tark]

I was bit by the Tok bug, I'm not sure if a Zastava M57 will be as pleasurable to shoot an the Circle 11 Tok.

I think you will like the M-57 more. That extra length in the grip makes the M-57 more pleasant to shoot, at least for me. And, of course, there is the bonus of that extra ninth round in the mag.

 

[tark]

Im not so sure a typical Tokarev magazine has the right angle.

Speaking of magazines, does anyone know if the M-57 mag will work in the other Toks?

 

[starling]

Speaking of magazines, does anyone know if the M-57 mag will work in the other Toks?

Sometimes they will. Depends on the pistol. Specs being the way they are with different Toks sometimes the magwell and trigger bar give enough clearance and sometimes its a little tight for my tastes (wont drop free, friction increased trigger resistance etc.). Same goes for the thinner 9mm 8rd and 7rd magazines. Before the spare M57 magazines were available I was getting ready to convert a bunch of CZ52 magazines for the M57 but they finally started rolling in. Even if the fit is tight though with a little work/fitting inside the magwell you can get things dialed in easy enough.

Finding spare magazines for the 9rd Zastava frames use to be a real pain and very expensive. Both for 7.62 and the 9mm. The 9mms had a few options but the 7.62 you either had the factory OEMs or modified CZ52 to chose from.

Even standard TT33 magazines can vary a bit. Norinco magazines a a little bit longer and there is a little more mag tube above the Magazine catch cutout. Result is the round feeds a little higher into the chamber. Those helped me out a bit on a 38 Super build.

When I get the motivation to work on Toks again (taking a little break) I will probably convert some CZ52s for the M57. The feedlips on the CZ52 are a little better suited for a 9mm conversion (needs a spacer of course). The CZ52 also has a steeper angle on the feed more inline with modern magazines.

Proper functioning caliber conversions on Toks are more complicated than a simple barrel change regardless of what is on the internet. They will fire and cycle most of the time but all that extra room in a 7.62x25 magazine as well as different ejector location presents problems. I was getting random malfunctions maybe 10-15% of the time.

 

[Handshaker]

Ok so i finally decided to get a CZ as well and after looking at several I bought this one, its Minty with a minty bore. It has only one arsenal refurb dot in the backstrap. I looks like its hardly been shot. It cost 425 with the stuff in the pic. now to go shoot it. I just got it today. Numbers all match.

 

[Terry G]

I want to stress the de-cocker failure. I owned two CZ 52's in 7.62 and both fired on engaging the de-cocker/safety. Luckily, both guns were pointed down range when it happened. I have a "Civilian" one in 9MM. that has never shown this problem, but I "pencil test" it all the time and never apply the de-cocker unless it's pointed down range. This is not a rare problem with CZ52's I have been advised.

 

[Handshaker]

Got it, I honestly have never used a decocker, no particular reason just never got use to using one.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Nice Cz !
My Cz52 decocker still functions properly, I test it from time to time, but I never trust it.

 

[Handshaker]

I think I drank the CZ koolaid that I was trying to avoid, lol. I am now looking at the Nagant and VZ52.
Not sure if you guys have this or not, i found it surfing the web.
https://harringtonproducts.com/markings.php

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Tokarev is a more practical weapon, but the CZ-52 was weapon of choice of three characters in Battlestar Galactica so there's that exotic factor.
The grip on the "poodle snout" has horrible ergonomics and requires deliberate aiming, unless you are a fan of knee-capping the enemy.

"... wouldn't the CZ potentially have more value down the road as a collector piece?"
200,000 were made in then-Communist Czechoslovakia between 1952 and 1954.
Very unique design but will probably never be replicated.
Whatever of the original number that got imported is all that there will ever be.

I first spotted the CZ-52 in WHB Smith, Small Arms of the World 1966.
With the import restrictions of 1968 and 1989 on military "non sporting" guns especially handguns, I had no hope of seeing one.
The CZ vz 52 (Česká Zbrojovka vzor (model) 1952) rifle was allowed in first and became sorta popular as the "vz 52" rifle.
When the CZ vz 52 pistol was finally approved for import, it was called "CZ-52" to distinguish it from the "vz 52" rifle
I bought mine in 2004 from an FFL at a trade fair for $129 including issue holster with cleaning rod, lanyard, two magazines.
In December 2022, CZ-52 pistols sold for $360 to $425 with one magazine.

The old story on the CZ-52 is that the regimental repair kits consisted of spare spring clips for holding the stock halves together and spare firing pins. The firing pins are cast steel and end to break if dry fired. Bad point. Good point is the last-shot hold-open slide latch has worked on mine consistently, even with "light" Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser ammo, so there's no excuse to deliberately drop the hammer on the firing pin. I bought two spare firing pins while they were cheap. I still have them. I don't dry fire and I don't abuse the decocker. When I release the hammer with the decocker, I have my thumb on the hammer and lower it.

 

[Handshaker]

The grip on the "poodle snout" has horrible ergonomics and requires deliberate aiming, unless you are a fan of knee-capping the enemy.
Grips angles have never bothered me and typically i look down the front and rear sight to aim, The grip angle doesnt play into any of that if your looking down the sight, altho it may be not so comfortable on the wrist. I always aim deliberately, unless Im hip firing my AK underfolder.