thinking of building an AR

[HRnightmare]

In theory it is a little easier to clean. In more extended theory, it might get along a little better without as much lube, though everyone pretty much runs ARs "wet" anyway.

I drip a drop or two on my NB coated BCG and then wipe it down with a rag. It cleans up much easier and requires little to no lube...IN ALL fairness I have NEVER subscribed to the "wet" BCG. My first AR, a Olympic arms ran fine with ANY ammo with just a drop or two of lube, it seemed to gunk up and jam when I ran it "wet". Same with my RRA and PSA.

I may be the only guy that "slight oil" has been better for me than "wet". Wet just got my hand greasy and allowed gunk to build up much faster.

 

[justin22885]

free float forearms and other stocks as you say are essentially just bolt ons, aftermarket mods.. as for gripping surface i actually grip closer to the magwell, im certainly not going to stretch my off arm straight out.. im curious though, what are some of the better flash suppressors youd recommend?

as for the rifle being able to be more updated.. this is true for any rifle.. if it wasnt for the widespread popularity of AR15s in the american market pushing aftermarket forward at a higher rate, the AR would be much closer to an A2 than it is now

the AK can still do with a lot of updates.. for example.. in a 3D cad program which ive used to design a few of my rifles from scratch, i'm also working in this 3D environment to completely update the AKM platform primarily for construction that requires no more than hand tools

 

[justin22885]

you know, the softer the materials, the more lubrication they need, if the AR upper wasnt aluminum, it would be able to handle so much better with less lube.. wonder if anyones ever decided to fold steel sheet metal into a keyhole shape and pressed it into an AR-15 upper like sleeving the inside of an engine cylinder, then the same treatments like chrome lining, NIB, melonite, etc could be applied to the interior walls of the upper too

 

[MachIVshooter]

you know, the softer the materials, the more lubrication they need, if the AR upper wasnt aluminum, it would be able to handle so much better with less lube.. wonder if anyones ever decided to fold steel sheet metal into a keyhole shape and pressed it into an AR-15 upper like sleeving the inside of an engine cylinder, then the same treatments like chrome lining, NIB, melonite, etc could be applied to the interior walls of the upper too

I'd suggest you spend less time playing with CAD and more time reading up on metallurgy & physics before you decide that teams of PhD engineers chose the wrong materials.

For example, brass and bronze are relatively soft alloys with excellent lubricity.

 

[goon]

I think the trigger can definitely be improved upon. Most stock FCG's are horrendous!
Along with that, the midlength gas system is better balanced to 16" barrels. No need to bang moving parts around any harder than you have to. Some would call a different cartridge another evolutionary step and I'd agree, but until the government agrees with us, 5.56 is the most common and the one logistics would force me to go with.

 

[Sam1911]

free float forearms and other stocks as you say are essentially just bolt ons, aftermarket mods

Well it is an AR. EVERYTHING is just a bolt-on mod. The designation "M4" is for a certain version of M-16/AR-15 lower receiver and a list of bolt-on parts that make up the carbine the Army decided to field back in 1994. Add a better handguard and a better stock and you've evolved the rifle past being an M4.

as for gripping surface i actually grip closer to the magwell, im certainly not going to stretch my off arm straight out

That's a training and technique issue. Whether you move to a more extended grip/stance or not will depend on your training (or what you pick up from other shooters) and what kind of shooting you're trying to do. A compressed grip close in to the magwell was pretty popular for a little while but most trainers and competitors have found better control (less over-swing on the target, less fatigue, etc.) by stretching out.

im curious though, what are some of the better flash suppressors youd recommend?

A search on YouTube for the string "ar15 comp flash hider test" will show you a lot of comparisons of the different choices on the market.

You've got compensators, flash-hiders, muzzle brakes, and all sorts of compromise devices now. All the way up to full-blown suppressors which are pretty terrific, but come with their own issues, of course.

I think the two most popular multi-purpose muzzle devices now are the BCM Gunfighter comp and the Noveske BattleComp, both of which are designed to work very well at keeping the muzzle level for fast shooting, but not directing the blast at you and your fellow shooters like most true compensators/brakes will. Another hot item to look at is the Noveske KX3 or KX5 "fire pigs" which are just amazing to see work. They just make the blast vanish. All optimized for fast, accurate shooting to a degree that the A2 flash hider was never designed to even consider.

as for the rifle being able to be more updated.. this is true for any rifle.. if it wasnt for the widespread popularity of AR15s in the american market pushing aftermarket forward at a higher rate, the AR would be much closer to an A2 than it is now

Exactly! Firearms development is actually quite a bit more driven by the civilian market than by anything the military does. That's been the case for a long time ... maybe forever, when you think of rifled hunting firearms in the days of war being fought with muskets. Or of solid, rugged optics being developed when the military was still holding tight to iron sights above all else.

And it really points out the silliness of the infatuation with "mil-spec." Mil-spec is simply the MINIMUM standard the military chose out of the options that were available way back whenever. There's nothing about mil-spec that cannot be superseded by BETTER options available on the market, or far more optimized choices for the specific needs of the individual shooter.

If you told someone that a military spec combat boot was the best footwear they could get, they'd laugh at you. But put "mil-spec" on a gun part and suddenly that's the magnum opus of gun development.

the AK can still do with a lot of updates.. for example.. in a 3D cad program which ive used to design a few of my rifles from scratch, i'm also working in this 3D environment to completely update the AKM platform primarily for construction that requires no more than hand tools

That's pretty cool, though I did build my first AK in my garage, with a hammer many years back. If I'd have done a "screw build" it would have been even easier.

I agree the AK can still do with updating, but the goals are really still the same as for updating the AR. Faster, more ergonomic controls. More flexibility and accommodation of gripping styles. More efficient mounting of optics (the AR already has reached the design pinnacle, there). Perhaps a move toward a more precise/tighter construction of critical parts -- of course having to balance the needs of reliability.

Being able to build one yourself might be a goal that's pretty far down the hierarchy of needs. Few of the world's armies are equipped, or important battles have ever been fought, with firearms that were easily constructed by the average combatant, himself. At this point, mass production of precision parts can accommodate just about any foreseeable demand, with pretty minimal lag. (See the last couple of years for a terrific example of that in action.)

 

[justin22885]

i dont think the AK will see any radical updating though.. not while cheap parts kits are still being sold and each one with its own tolerances, and parts from one rifle arent really a drop in replacement to a different AK.. so until those things change i dont foresee any big push to update it.. and when assembly from a receiver still requires riveting, a shop press, and fitment its going to discourage anyone who wants something they can easily put together and customize.. and fact is till our military drops the M4 itll remain the most popular and most frequently updated and aftermarket friendly

anyway, i looked at some flash suppressor comparisons with the A2 and the ones i looked at didnt look like a noticeable enough improvement, however i did not compare the ones you mentioned and so i will look at those as well

also, im probably never going to use the stance with my arm stretched out.. its advantages to me arent worth the tradeoff, especially when i have more pain in my shoulders when stretching them out (do to a neck injury thatll likely require surgery soon)

 

[Browning]

anyway, i looked at some flash suppressor comparisons with the A2 and the ones i looked at didnt look like a noticeable enough improvement, however i did not compare the ones you mentioned and so i will look at those as well

I have 5 flash suppressors, 3 A2's, a VLTOR VC:A2 and a AAC Blackout Non-Mount and I hunt hogs and coyotes at night and in poor light and I haven't noticed a difference between them.

Here's 4 of them.



Then again according to tests conducted by Vuurwapen on a selection of various Flash Suppressors the AAC Blackout is supposed to slightly more effective and the VLTOR the exact same as an A2.









AR Muzzle Device Comparison - Part 1

AR Muzzle Device Comparison - Part 2

AR Muzzle Device - Part 3

MUZZLE DEVICE FLASH COMPARISON – BRAKES, COMPS & FLASH HIDERS

For the money and for being as old as it is the A2 is still a very effective option and gives you a good bang for the buck. If you just wanted something different and slightly more effective then I'd go with the AAC Blackout Non-Mount (you can't use that one in conjunction with a suppressor if you were thinking of getting one at some point).

The most negative thing I can think of to say that when the AAC Blackout hits something it lets out a tuning fork type 'Ping'. Very effective though.

I've also had the S.E. Vortex, the YHM Phantom and the old 3-prong A1 and the first two worked really well (slightly better than the A2, but not by much) while the A1 was only slightly better than a bare muzzle depending on what ammo you use.

Here's a video of the same tests as above...

http://youtu.be/ggfyDANbD6U

 

[Sam1911]

Those comparisons are strictly of flash suppression, though. Not sure exactly how important that one aspect may be to most shooters, though it is worth considering. The compensators and hybid comps like the Gunfighter or Battlecomp or KX3/5 offer other benefits beyond simple flash suppression.

 

[Sam1911]

i dont think the AK will see any radical updating though

Well you could say that it already did, with the Valmet and Galil variants being exactly that. But they didn't reach anything like the popularity and ubiquitousness of the AKM. Other designs have borrowed from the Kalashnikov system (like the Sig 55x guns). Then, of course, there is the AK-12, which would seem like exactly what you're looking for. If only the Russians loved it as much as WE do!

.. not while cheap parts kits are still being sold and each one with its own tolerances, and parts from one rifle arent really a drop in replacement to a different AK..

What? You certainly can swap parts between most AKs and expect them to work, genearlly. Might have to get lucky on headspace if you're swapping bolts but that's about it.

so until those things change i dont foresee any big push to update it.

Except for the AK-12?

...and when assembly from a receiver still requires riveting, a shop press, and fitment its going to discourage anyone who wants something they can easily put together and customize..

Hey man, like I said, I put the first one together with a hammer! No shop press for me!

and fact is till our military drops the M4 itll remain the most popular and most frequently updated and aftermarket friendly

Well, to be quite truthful, big sections of our military DON'T use the M4. The Marines, for example, use the M16A4. Navy guys might carry the M16A3, and lots and lots of various servicemen still use the M16A2. And the rifles that folks out there in civilian-shooter land are building often are closer to one of those variations than to the M4 carbine.

 

[justin22885]

the AK12 is essentially just a prototype, and its likely never going to see the hands of american civilians, and ive owned and build AKs enough to know that its mostly luck to get a number of major parts to fit, nut just the bolts and barrels, but also top cover fitment and gas tube as well dont necessarily fit properly from one rifle to another.. even less likely from two different countries of origin

also, popularity of a rifle and its aftermarket is a bit of a catch 22 situation.. it wont become more popular until theres more aftermarket.. but there isnt going to be more aftermarket unless its more popular.. the AR on the other hand had the advantage of being adopted by the US military and as such returning vets buy them because its something theyre already used to, and many non military buy them because they want what the military is using.. had it not been for those two facts the AR-15 may still be stuck in that catch 22 loop now

as for the AK, aftermarket is a bit difficult and tedious, often requiring multiple versions of the same component or extra engineering to adjust fitment from one rifle to another

___

but anyway, enough about that, as far as forearms and stocks go, none of these things are going to really change the reliability of the rifle, and will have a negligable effect on accuracy and handling so im not all too concerned with spending a lot of money on any kind of higher end rail forearms or stocks at this point.. same thing goes with gas blocks, and flash suppression at this point isnt a big concern.. besides, at some point soon im planning to put a combination gas block and front sight on my AK and thread the muzzle for 1/2-28 so the same muzzle devices will fit and work on that too (my AK is 5.56mm as well)

what im focusing on right now is parts selection that can lower the need for maintenance, frequent cleaning, increase reliability to the top of its game for the comparison.. i think its most important that i have the entire gas system properly tuned, use the proper magazines, and a decent quality barrel.. if things go well and i decide the AR offers more benefits than an AK, then i can focus on upgrading things like the furniture, muzzle device, gas block, optics, etc

however, if i decide the AK is the best all around after competing with an AR.. then i wil lbe focusing the time, effort, and funds to customizing and modifying that as well which may even include some custom modifications of my own

 

[justin22885]

is it just me, or does it seem like most the stuff made by BCM, noveske, etc is just their branding on products from other manufacturers?

 

[barnbwt]

"also, popularity of a rifle and its aftermarket is a bit of a catch 22 situation.. it wont become more popular until theres more aftermarket.. but there isnt going to be more aftermarket unless its more popular.. the AR on the other hand had the advantage of being adopted by the US military and as such returning vets buy them because its something theyre already used to, and many non military buy them because they want what the military is using.. had it not been for those two facts the AR-15 may still be stuck in that catch 22 loop now"
I personally think the rabid devotion to both platforms is more a case of "if you build it they will come" than anything intrinsic to the designs themselves. Both had nation-scale efforts, spanning decades, churning out product, improvements, and variants, before the collapse of the USSR made their products super cheap --so much so, those made domestically had to compete with them (remember how expensive ARs used to be before the AWB, when AKs weren't nearly as ubiquitous compared to SKS's?)

"I put the first one together with a hammer! No shop press for me!"
How did she group, Sam?

TCB

 

[Sam1911]

"I put the first one together with a hammer! No shop press for me!"
How did she group, Sam?

I'll have to admit, I don't even remember! That was so long ago and I haven't shot that AK in probably a decade!

It worked flawlessly, but I can't recall whether I ever tried an accuracy test or even benched it.

 

[justin22885]

my current AK is a 5.56mm rifle so its VERY easy to compare it with other 5.56mm rifles like the AR in terms of accuracy because im able to use similar length barrels of the same twist rate firing the same ammunition.. the AK's accurate is greatly underestimated.. with M855 ammo through my 556 AK74 and the average run of the mill AR-15 (not a 20 inch match grade heavy barreled free floating AR) is about 2-2.5 MOA for either rifle

i build this one myself from an 80% pre-bent blank (not a flat) as its easier for me to set up a drilling jig than it is to bend a flat absolutely perfectly and it eliminates the need for a bending jig.. but i have the tools still so i can build other AKs

id have to say the biggest issue with customizing them is the general lack of parts to really customize them with.. could a 7.62 AK easily be converted to 6.5 grendel?.. sure, but does anyone make a barrel for this conversion?.. nope.. 6.8SPC conversion?. possible sure, parts available for it? nope.. also, the AK barrel contour has to be pretty specific beecause not only does it have to fit the gas block, but also the handguard retainer, rear sight block, and front sight block plus two different trunnion sizes depending whether its a 47 or a 74

also, barrels are generally paper thin and flex a lot, common gas block diameter for the standard AKMs is .592" in diameter.. smallest gas block diameter for the AR15 is what? .625" with .750" being common?.. now if i want to upgrade the barrel size on the AK, i'll have to find a block from another AK rifle.. say a romanian RPK which has a barrel diameter of .740" at the gas block.. but then if i do that.. i'll have to also get a larger diameter rear sight block, handguard retainer, and front sight block.. or custom contour a barrel to fit the parts i have... all becoming a major pain in the ass

so doing any real level of customization on the AK requires some special tools and skills.. i'll be able to do a hell of a lot more after i get a lathe and can contour my own barrels to the parts i want to use in the calibers i choose.. so if i do decide to stick with the AK rifles over the AR after testing, i'll be getting the tools to do deeper customizations

 

[Browning]

Those comparisons are strictly of flash suppression, though. Not sure exactly how important that one aspect may be to most shooters, though it is worth considering. The compensators and hybid comps like the Gunfighter or Battlecomp or KX3/5 offer other benefits beyond simple flash suppression.

The thing is that most comps are loud. I mean stupid loud. That's why that 'Sound Pressure Level' graph is in there, some magnify the sound to where they're way louder than with a bare muzzle. Won't be winning too many friends at the range with those.

Most comps also magnify the muzzle flash 'up close' which is the reason for that graph. For me it's mostly a consideration because of hunting at night and in poor light, that'll momentarily blind you and with hogs if you're quick you can drop several of them in one fell swoop. A comp screws with that.

What'll blind you at night while hunting will also blind you at night while defending your home.

Comps help with recoil as well as muzzle rise and that helps in your shot-to-shot times, so they're real popular with the 3-gun crowd. Those competitions are all held during the day though.

The Battlecomp is a little bit better then some of the other comps out there in terms of flash, concussion and sound, but it's still quite a bit louder than say an A2, the VLTOR VC:A2 or the AAC Blackout flash suppressors.

If this carbine is to serve in any kind of home defense capacity I wouldn't use a comp. They bring some advantages to the table (especially the lack of muzzle rise and the gun jumping around in recoil which I appreciate), but IMHO their disadvantages outweigh them for defense.

Different loads do offer less flash and you could experiment with them and choose one that flashes less that the others and mitigate that a little, still wouldn't help you with the noise unless you're going to spring for the tax stamp and money for a suppressor. Most shooters aren't willing to do that though.

(However if this carbine is only to be used as a range toy and possibly for competition cancel everything I said above about comps)

 

[Sam1911]

Yeah, I'd completely agree about traditional comps/brakes.

That's why the new hybrid styles (like the Gunfighter or BattleComp) are so cool.

And the KX3/5 "firepig" devices are just amazing at sucking up the blast. I installed one for a pal a while back and standing perpendicular to the muzzle it was still like "anti" blast. Felt like you were standing 20' away.

 

[justin22885]

i will say as far as muzzle devices go, my priority is for flash and sound suppression more so than recoil.. its a 5.56, very little recoil to begin with.. but if youre using it for home defense, or any other situation you probably wont have the time to put in hearing protection and id rather not blow ear drums the moment i go without.. so actually if there was a muzzle device that could keep the sound under a safe level without having to run a sound suppressor, where i could safely fire it regularly without hearing protection, i'd go that route above anything else.. but short of an actual suppressor im not aware of any muzzle devices that can do this

 

[Sam1911]

so actually if there was a muzzle device that could keep the sound under a safe level without having to run a sound suppressor, where i could safely fire it regularly without hearing protection, i'd go that route above anything else.. but short of an actual suppressor im not aware of any muzzle devices that can do this

No, and even NFA Title II Silencers/Suppressors aren't hearing-safe, so there isn't any device that's going to make that possible.

its a 5.56, very little recoil to begin with

Of course. No one buying a compensator or muzzle brake for a 5.56 mm rifle is doing it because the recoil is very great. The devices help with keeping the muzzle level during strings of very fast follow-up shots. If your shooting isn't fast, this will be a lost benefit.

Practical carbine shooting has evolved (there's that word again!) quite a ways from the more staid and sedate pace of traditional rifle marksmanship. Some of the benefits of the latest generation of developments to the AR15 are probably not fully utilized in more traditional rifle shooting roles.

 

[justin22885]

i just dont see muzzle brakes as very practical outside of competition.. if its a man-sized target at close range i can put followup shots into an 8" target without needing a muzzle brake.. if targets are longer than than that id rather take an extra moment to make sure i hit that target anyway.. competition, fine, but im not going to focus on it.. i kinda like the saker trifecta prong style brake.. very quiet compared to the other ones for people behind and to the side and do a great job at flash suppression.. the two things i find more important than muzzle climb

 

[Browning]

Yeah, I'd completely agree about traditional comps/brakes.

That's why the new hybrid styles (like the Gunfighter or BattleComp) are so cool.

Yeah, those are a bit better than the traditional style comps. Still flashy in poor light and noisier than flash suppressors, but better.

And the KX3/5 "firepig" devices are just amazing at sucking up the blast. I installed one for a pal a while back and standing perpendicular to the muzzle it was still like "anti" blast. Felt like you were standing 20' away.

To me the Linear brakes and flash can type devices are in a class all by themselves. Those help in doing three things . . .

1. Direct all muzzle blast forward, away from the shooter making shooting much more comfortable with shorter barreled rifles or rifles using high pressure rounds.
2. Help eliminate muzzle rise when shooting so that you may watch your target through your scope without loosing sight of it.
3. Help minimize any dust signature when shooting prone.

They also help eliminate flash from the shooters perspective (from the side or being at an angle is a completely different story) and throw the blast and some of the sound forward. Their only downside is that they're large in diameter and heavy, so mostly people only put them on AR pistols and SBR's otherwise it makes it really muzzle heavy. They do work well though.

Besides the Noveske Pig there's also the Troy Claymore, the Levang Linear, the Kies Linear Compensator and a couple other ones. Those are a bit different from the traditional comps in that the blast is directed forward rather than to the sides like other comps which helps a great deal.

Noveske Pig night shooting...
http://youtu.be/grxMh8fcuaQ

The Noveske Pig is classified as a flash suppressor (and from the shooters perspective it kind of is). As you can see from a side angle it's pretty much a fire breathing pig.

 

[Sam1911]

 

[justin22885]

what do you guys think about the saker trifecta?

 

[Sam1911]

The flash hider or brake version? Are you going to use it with their silencer mount? If not, what's the point?

 

[justin22885]

the pronged version.. seems to do a great job at hiding flash and is also very quiet