This could be the start of gun control......

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AlexanderA said:
Once an allegation of "mental illness" had been made, it would be up to the accused to navigate the labyrinth of the legal and psychiatric professions to prove his fitness to own a gun. This doesn't seem fair, and it's generally not the way we do things here in America. ("Innocent until proven guilty.")

Maybe, based on what you say, we should just follow the example of some European countries and require a positive certification of sanity by a psychiatrist before you can get a gun. (Of course, no psychiatrist is going to stick his neck out and provide such a certification, knowing his legal liability if the gun is misused.)
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Innocent until proven guilty

Isn't that the way the back ground check system works now? The only difference is it's based on ones criminal record and some court decisions.

I don't have a criminal record but every time I buy a firearm it costs me $25-$50 to have a dealer run a BC to prove that there is no record that would prevent me from having a firearm. The same thing should happen if a person has demonstrated some capacity to become a threat by conversations in public or on the internet.

I'm not proposing positive certification for everyone. I'm proposing positive certification when a person comes into contact with LE and an arrest is made. At that time an assessment can be made by a state, county or federal appointed psychiatrist about a persons mental state. Once a negative assessment is made that record needs to go to NCIC. None of that happens now because of HIPAA. That's pretty much how a felony conviction or no contact order works now.

About all I hear now is a call to ban semi-auto rifles and high capacity mags. The problem isn't the weapon, it's the people who use them. Many of those people are known to LE yet there isn't any access to that information. The determination needs to be made by a professional and that record needs to be in a data base so a BC can flag it.

If we don't start to identify the source of the problem and correct it there are plenty of people that will do it for us. The simple solution is just to ban semi-auto rifles and high capacity magazines. The lower federal courts have already decided that the states have that right. A bill popped up in our state to do just that this year. If it hadn't died in committee earlier this month we would probably have an AR/mag ban this year because of this latest shooting. I'm sure the bill will be re-introduced next year and it will probably pass.

Somebody is going to lose some more of their rights here. It's looking like 2A supporters are going to lose and the 4A supporters will prevail. There are far more liberal 4A supporters than 2A supporters, that's a fact. The really hard left wouldn't even consider having to give up anything so people can keep semi-auto rifles.

I'm not sure how anyone can be on the fence on this and expect a positive outcome for your right to keep your AR and high capacity magazines. Maybe you'll understand it when an AR/mag ban hits your state. Virginia isn't exactly a conservative state. The 4th circuit has already made it possible for Virginia to ban AR's.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...5s-are-not-constitutionally-protected-w468223
 
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AlexanderA said:
Exactly. Antigunners have learned that they can tackle the "gun problem" from two ends: the guns themselves, and the people who own the guns. They can keep adding category after category of people who are excluded from owning guns, and eventually so many people are excluded that it becomes almost moot to go after the guns themselves. OK, we've excluded felons, domestic abusers, drug users, people who have been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, etc. The mental health arena is the next remaining place where potentially large numbers of people can be excluded. Nobody is going to stand up for "crazy people" any more than they stand up for "wife beaters." What the antis are doing is cleverly exploiting all of our social stigmas.
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If that's true then why do we keep getting AG bills run through congress and our state legislatures. Here's whats going on in your state.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...eduled-for-a-hearing-in-subcommittee-tomorrow

I didn't see any bills dealing with mental health issues/restrictions. That indicates to me that there isn't any support for that in your state, just AG bills.
 
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The big thing with adding restrictions for say mental health is WHO decides and at what point in the sand is the line drawn. HIPAA is the biggest stumbling block in this system. I would think that a simple "restricted" to be added to ones file for a background check if the reporting authority is able to prove that one should be denied access for certain transgressions but with the ability to get a hearing to remedy the mistakes would be the best of both worlds. Who says what level and where that line in the sand ends up is the gremlin in the sewer.:scrutiny: Pretty easy for the line location if you are a convicted felon etc.---others not so much IMHO.
 
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CamaroDMD said:
But, I don't know if it's a good idea to have that many students in that close proximity to firearms.
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It is in the living memory of many here that schools hard far more guns in them than they do now; yet violence and accidents were virtually unheard of.

Allow me to contend that it's not the presence of firearms which creates the risk so nearly as much as our societal willingness to allow the blissfully ignorant to hold positions of authority.
 
hdwhit said:
In the wake of the Orlando shooting, Academy canceled contracts with AR providers and said they would stop selling ARs.
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Yeah, but that was also right after the bottom fell out of the AR market. Academy was stuck with a bunch of orders for AR at $550-600 wholesale and prices had fallen to $400-500. They needed an excuse to bail out of the deal.
 
I worry this could be the beginning of gun control.

My main concern is... none of their dumb laws are going to help so they are going to just keep piling more on.
 
Yes. This is the advantage the anti’s have. Their laws don’t have to work. They just feel good and right and when they don’t work they use that as an excuse to go further. They act like it’s close but need more. The end game is confiscation. Pro gunners have a bigger hurdle. We can’t just defend the second amendment anymore. We have to find our own solutions to the issues. To save lives and rights and unlike them our ideas have to work.
 
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Does Nancy Pelosi ever look at the numbers?

Texas gun control laws are among the least-restrictive among U.S. states. While California has some of the most restrictive.

Homicide statistics for 2015 indicate that both states have the same homicide rate of 4.8 per 100000 or about .005%.

That tells me that just as many homicides were committed in CA. as TX using a percentage of the population. The only difference was the method. Because CA has more gun control some of the killers probably didn't us a gun.

Dead is dead and more gun control doesn't equal less homicide. It just means fewer guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_in_the_United_States_by_state
 
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Hokie_PhD said:
New Va Gov Ralph Northam said he’s going to do an Obama and institute “sensible gun control” via executive order.

This is the guy who thinks and AR ban, 10 round mag limits and a limit of one gun purchase a month are “common sense”
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What executive action can he take? An AWB, mag limits, and a one-gun-a-month limit would all require legislation, and the legislature is still in Republican hands. All the gun control bills died on the first day of the session.

BTW, if he's trying to copy Obama, Obama managed to do squat about guns, via executive orders or otherwise. The elder President Bush actually did more harm, such as with the 1989 import ban.
 
AlexanderA said:
What executive action can he take? An AWB, mag limits, and a one-gun-a-month limit would all require legislation, and the legislature is still in Republican hands. All the gun control bills died on the first day of the session.

BTW, if he's trying to copy Obama, Obama managed to do squat about guns, via executive orders or otherwise. The elder President Bush actually did more harm, such as with the 1989 import ban.
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The article said he’s “exploring options”

You and I know the law is he’s the chief executive of the state not part of the legislature. But we also know all presidents and governors push for more power and see how far they can go. Many have crossed the line until the courts reign them in. This guy scares me as he’s so open and vocal about being anti gun.

So I hope he’s pandering to his base but we must watch him and the rest of the anti gunners who were elected in November
 
AlexanderA said:
BTW, if he's trying to copy Obama, Obama managed to do squat about guns, via executive orders or otherwise.
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Not true. Obama's actions inspired the sale of millions of additional firearms and who knows how many rounds of ammo. I would lay money that we have at least the beginnings of the start of another run. It will be interesting to see if NICS data show a significant bump.
 
CamaroDMD said:
I don't think arming teachers is the solution to these issues. It seems counterproductive to me. I'm sure I'm the minority in this...but here me out for a second.

My wife is a high school teacher in a large high school. They have training and protocols in place for a shooting. Basically, their job is to secure their classroom. Lock the doors, turn the lights out, get the students into the best place for concealment in their room, ect. If we armed the teacher and had them go and try and "save the day" that would require them to abandon their classroom unsecured. Keep in mind...17 people were killed in Florida last week. 17 sounds like a lot...and if it's you or your loved on it is. But, that school has 3200 students in it. I feel like their protocol worked pretty well.

In my eyes "more guns" is just as bad of a solution as "banning guns." The gun isn't the issue.
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Everyone answering this with the hardened classroom and shelter in place forget the shooter started with pulling a fire alarm - where do you go then?

I posted the following in than one place and it wins me no friends in social media, but I don't honestly care;

People yell - "we have to DO something!" NO, WE DON'T. Let that sink in a minute. Can we do something within the letter and spirit of the law without infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens? Yes. If the police and FBI had followed up the contacts with direct interviews, let the kid KNOW he was on the radar hard, this might have turned out differently. if the school had become a hard target, perhaps things might have turned out differently, and that includes the kids "hear something, say something", plus arming responsible teachers, (ain't that a mouthful?), improving physical security, (which the kids will promptly figure out how to purposefully defeat - hard to sneak off for a smoke if the gate is always locked), plus other measures that can be used, IF people are willing to pay for them. Next time the school asks for a bond election to buy a new stadium, tell the school board to build a better fence and hire armed off duty police instead.
We can choose dangerous freedom over illusory security, and I say illusory because I live it - I work maximum security lockdown right now, and inmates still manage to make weapons and hurt others with them. I understand how this hurts everyone, and the urge to DO something can be overwhelming, but to do something WRONG is worse than doing nothing at all.

What I will add here is what being bandied about is knee jerk reactions to a high profile event designed to create those emotional responses and I am tired of getting bent over for someone's political Agenda. So when you ask, what can we do? Nothing needs to be one, but things can be done to help. Otherwise, ban automobiles and swimming polls, rat poison and hands and feet, all which kill more than AR15s.

The Left loves little posters and sound bites, so back at them;

nZv4qNr.jpg

1FbAlPO.jpg
 
brewer12345 said:
Not true. Obama's actions inspired the sale of millions of additional firearms and who knows how many rounds of ammo. I would lay money that we have at least the beginnings of the start of another run. It will be interesting to see if NICS data show a significant bump.
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Yes, I was going to say that Obama's actions had the net effect of putting more guns into people's hands.
 
armoredman said:
Everyone answering this with the hardened classroom and shelter in place forget the shooter started with pulling a fire alarm - where do you go then?
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I haven't forgotten that at all. Their protocols worked. Only 17 killed in a school of 3200. I know 17 seems like a lot but when you figure that he pulled the alarm to draw all the kids out of the classrooms...obviously they did a pretty good job.
 
I just contributed to both the NRA-ILA and Gun Owners of America this morning. I'm steamed about that zoo on CNN last night.

I hope both pro-gun organizations will have mega-contributions coming in today.
 
AlexanderA said:
Exactly. Antigunners have learned that they can tackle the "gun problem" from two ends: the guns themselves, and the people who own the guns. They can keep adding category after category of people who are excluded from owning guns, and eventually so many people are excluded that it becomes almost moot to go after the guns themselves. OK, we've excluded felons, domestic abusers, drug users, people who have been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, etc. The mental health arena is the next remaining place where potentially large numbers of people can be excluded. Nobody is going to stand up for "crazy people" any more than they stand up for "wife beaters." What the antis are doing is cleverly exploiting all of our social stigmas.
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Don't to over confident about that last part.



https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/...=dlZIpEkErEnPvWMA0Awv6ONWHTIhM&ned=us&topic=h
They met with Representative Patricia H. Williams, a Democrat, and Senator Debbie Mayfield, a Republican. Ms. Mayfield said that changes were needed, perhaps including raising the minimum age to buy powerful weapons, but she rebuffed criticism from a student, Daniel Bishop, 16, that such a change would not actually prevent deaths.

“We can’t stop crazies,” she told the group.

Afterward, Amanda De La Cruz, 16, looked distraught. “I want the ban on semiautomatic weapons,” she said. “I don’t care about the crazies.”
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Borrowed from the internet

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun-related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:
• 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.
• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.
• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug-related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.
• 3% are accidental discharge deaths.
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now let us look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.
• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)
So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.
Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.
 
P5 Guy said:
Borrowed from the internet

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun-related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:
• 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.
• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.
• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug-related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.
• 3% are accidental discharge deaths.
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now let us look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.
• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)
So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.
Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.
Click to expand...

Can you provide the source of this info? It's very helpful. Thanks.
 
Hokie_PhD said:
New Va Gov Ralph Northam said he’s going to do an Obama and institute “sensible gun control” via executive order.

This is the guy who thinks and AR ban, 10 round mag limits and a limit of one gun purchase a month are “common sense”

https://wtop.com/virginia/2018/02/v...wtops-ask-the-governor-for-first-time-feb-21/
Click to expand...


Our governor has the same agenda. He's waiting for congress to send him the bill so he can sign it. Our AG is also working hard to get an AWB/mag limit through the legislature. Now we have more dems in our legislature than reps. Just a matter of a year or two before we have one.

I honestly don't think most people keep up with what goes on in their state. Some are going to be shocked when they wake up some day with an AWB. Never saw it coming.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
Our governor has the same agenda. He's waiting for congress to send him the bill so he can sign it. Our AG is also working hard to get an AWB/mag limit through the legislature. Now we have more dems in our legislature than reps. Just a matter of a year or two before we have one.

I honestly don't think most people keep up with what goes on in their state. Some are going to be shocked when they wake up some day with an AWB. Never saw it coming.
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No one can be worse than ours. We have a terrible new governor and our anti gun AG was relelected. Northam was an AWB, ten round limits and a one gun a month maximum on gun purchases. Of course these clowns are cut from the same cloth as Timmy, I closed the rest stops and fined my own people more than out of state drivers, Kaine who said that anyone who has more than one gun is mentally ill.
 
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