This is how guns get banned out here

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Shung said:
Castle doctrine (in your home) in italy is a reality. This was accepted after too many home invasions and agressions.
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The law operates not only in your home, but also on your workplace. A jeweller recently killed a violent robber in his shop with a .22lr pistol with no legal consequences. The law was introduced by the Berlusconi government in 2006, because the previous formulation led judges to convict the victims of violent crimes who reacted for "excess of legitimate self-defence". The law now states that you cannot be prosecuted if you use your legally acquired firearm against someone to protect your (or somebody else's) life, and your (or somebody else's) goods. In the latter case, you must be in danger of being assaulted or physically armed.
CCW for civilians is legal in Italy, but the number of permits issued is severly restricted. Police authorities decide on a case by case basis.
Regards,
Goerz
 
too bad to hear about switzerland, it is my backup plan if america goes to hell. hopefully it doesn't get even worse and gets better.
 
I wonder if the lefties are capable of talking looser's into commiting acts of violence using firearms to advance the gun ban agenda? The muslim fundamentalists talk people into blowing themselves up for their cause.
 
CCW for civilians is legal in Italy, but the number of permits issued is severly restricted.
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if ccw is severely restricted as you say it is i.e. you need to be on the hitlist of the local mafia before they will consider your application then I believe the statement above is misleading. It is good news they have extended your castle doctrine to places of business, particularly those who are exposed - diamond stores/banks/pharmacies/petrol stations etc.

Shung,

How did the Swiss ccw get abolished? Do you think it would be possible to reinstate it again in Switzerland in the future or what is the public perception locally?
 
lykoris said:
if ccw is severely restricted as you say it is i.e. you need to be on the hitlist of the local mafia before they will consider your application then I believe the statement above is misleading.
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You don't need to be on the hitlist of the mafia to get a CCW permit in Italy (in those cases we're talking about big shots that are usually assigned an armed escort), but you need to have a "valid reason" to carry a pistol. Criminal lawyers, credit collectors, people who carry large amounts of money or other valuables are often in possession of a CCW permit. Any judge can carry a firearm without a permit. I read that there are about 40,000 such permits in Italy, i.e. less than 1% of the population has a CCW permit. On the other hand, firearms of some sort are present in 4 million households.
Regards,
Goerz
 
CCW permit in Italy are like in Switzerland it seems.. a "priviliege" , and this sucks..

They could make permits hard to obtain by severe exams (theory and pratical), medical exams, legal exams, WHATEVER.. But OPEN to ANY CITIZEN that PASS the exams , has no felony record, and is willing to carry..

I really hate this privilege thing.. You are rich, work with a lot of money , you know the people frm the bureau that delivers the carry permits ? you get to carry ? Damn, I thought the privilege to keep and bear arms for nobles was abolished in 1789.... :banghead:

In Switzerland, it was "abolished" in 1999, for no real reasons.. It just sounded "wise" to the legislator to ban those evil guns on honest citizen.. (before the 1999 law, the law was for every Canton, and most of them allowed carry without any permit.. in 1999 the law became Federal and the same for everybody)

At the moment, the right to carry could not be reinstated in Switzerland, since the public opinion would litteraly SCREAM about imagining people being armed in the street..

Mostly because we already have an increase of violence in Switzerland, for 10 years, with beating to deaths, stabbings etc, mostly commited by foreigners from Balkanic or north african countries...

People see violence, and think guns would make it worse.. The only way to make people believe guns could help could be another increase in the level of violence.. When people will really fear for their life while walking in the street, they might change their mind about good people carrying a gun..

As for now, when you tell them about honest people carrying, they think blood would flow on the streets, because people would be shooting themselves for a car accident or a traffic light..

Morons..

One thing is for sure.. the day I should be fearing for my life while on the street, I'd be carrying, wether the police delivers me the permit, or not.. But of course, I dont fear for my life.. YET.. but mainly because I avoid ****ty situations, and don't stand my ground..
 
Shung said:
CCW permit in Italy are like in Switzerland it seems.. a "priviliege" , and this sucks..

They could make permits hard to obtain by severe exams (theory and pratical), medical exams, legal exams, WHATEVER.. But OPEN to ANY CITIZEN that PASS the exams , has no felony record, and is willing to carry..
Click to expand...

I wholly agree with your considerations, CCW really is a privilege. I don't see CCW open to any citizen becoming a reality any time soon in Europe, and the public opinion isn't on our side. But there is a large support, at least in Italy, for the use of firearms for home defence, and that give us some hope that guns won't be banned
Regardsm,
Goerz
 
Goerz,

The castle doctrine is a step in the right direction.

Your civilian ccw system is no different than here, gun shop owners/lawyers that work for state prosecution etc. etc. get a de facto right to carry if they wish. The same as Switzerland from what I understand.

For me this isn’t civilian ccw but automatic ccw for a “very select few members of society"…here definitely well under 1% of population. I think it's completely illogical. If anything you would have to be insane to attack a judge as the police would never stop until they found you & you would get the full sentence - in my view they are far safer than any ordinary member of the public.

Shung,

I know exactly what you mean, since 2004 and the 10 new Eastern European countries joining the EU we have imported nothing but scumbag eastern gangs. Why rob houses in a Baltic country like Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia when you can cross open borders to Lux (highest GDP/capita in Europe if not the world) and rob valuables worth 10-15 times more per house or pop windows & pull someone out of their porsche at the traffic lights.

I wish convicted criminals would be sent back to their respective eastern European 3rd world country **** hole – free movement of ‘labour’(not that they work/pay taxes) should have a clause stating you need to be a net contributor to the country in which you decide to live in.

I found it sad to read that Protell didn't make a formal objection to the federal law that impacted ccw in 99.

I also find it normal that while the number of knife crimes injures 9 times more people than a firearm the socialist party is more worried about taking away the Swiss service rifle.
http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/couteau-devenu-arme-crime-no-1-103245

also this would seem to suggest Geneva was the most 'friendly' in terms of these extremely rare ccw licenses, mostly security personnel from the sound of it.
http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/stauffer-cas-part-126589


So basically 10 years have gone by since ccw was abolished, knife crime keeps going up and up but you say the general population is anti-firearm.

It is incredible how a decade can change so much for the worst for firearms ownership.

ccw gone.
schengen agreement and all the restrictions that entails.
ammo for the service rifle removed.

and now they(socialist party & anti-gun brigade) want the service rifle and a host of other measures for your own good. banning pump action shotguns also aren't they ?

Can you not obtain 100,000 signatures and petition the federal government to allow the people vote to enable ccw to be delivered to civilians as it was pre 99 ?

I find it very frustrating - socialist anti-gun agenda across Europe, constant demonization of law abiding citizens with firearms and any discussion of ccw and we are automatically some Waco style right wing gun nuts. Why is it that despite all the loopholes we jump through (no criminal record, no worrying medical records - depression/substance abuse/psychological issues) and all the other vetting measures...models of the perfect citizen by any means that

we are entrusted with firearms for hunting/sport shooting and to have them in our homes

But

carrying a concealed handgun on the street as a means of defence

(which if used as such will have us calling the police to report what happened as law abiding citizens we are accountable for our actions)

is automatically AMERICAN GUN CULTURE/WILD WILD WEST/BLOOD BATH IN THE STREETS/RAMBO WANNABE '

it just defies logic. It is the most appropriate means of defense for a woman.

But in controlling the media, they control public opinion however erroneous their logic is in various articles :mad:

But hey, when violent crime keeps increasing we can always count on the police to be there to assure our security right :confused: I mean that is what the socialists promised in their election manifesto, right :confused:

At this rate I will want to retire in Tennessee with my own range in the back yard.
 
The year I worked in Switzerland, the country was celebrating its 675th anniversary of independence. In the canton where I worked (St. Gallen) a permit costing 2 Swiss Francs (about 45 cents in those days) was required to purchase a handgun and the local sporting goods store had a nice selection of pistols. The local polizei carried their SIG automatics in full-flap holsters with buckle closures that were carried on a cross-strap. One could carry a gun openly and there was little comment.

The inn where I worked (it was a summer job arranged by friends) had four chefs ranging in age from about 20 to the early 50s. All of them who lived at the inn (including the owner) had their rifles stored in their rooms (we were one heavily-armed hotel!).

The Swiss have remained independent and free for over seven centuries now, a feat unmatched by most countries. Part of it is geography but part of it is that trying to conquer Switzerland would be an extremely costly exercise in futility. Imagine if every household in America not only had a firearm but had at least on person professionally trained in its use. Aside from the lack of invading armies, there was an awful lot of peace: I don't ever recall hearing of an offense more serious than staying too late at the bar and getting fined for violating "Polizeistunde."

It's a shame the Swiss can't look at their now 718 years of tradition and realize an armed citizenry is as much a part of their heritage as the Second Amendment is part of ours. After all, Switzerland's independence is 500 years older than the Second Amendment (ratified in 1791). That should be something to cherish and preserve; it's part of being Swiss.

Incidentally, we talk about "self-defense" as being a valid reason for civilian gun ownership. In the UK, Australia and New Zealand, "self-defense" is specifically excluded from the valid reasons to be issued a gun permit. It's okay to have a gun to hunt, to shoot targets, to shoot vermin and pests or to admire, but it's not okay to have a gun to protect your life, your family's lives or your property. Go figure.
 
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The Swiss have remained independent and free for over seven centuries now, a feat unmatched by most countries. Part of it is geography but part of it is that trying to conquer Switzerland would be an extremely costly exercise in futility.
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Actually, Switzerland was occupied by Napoleonic troops for several years. The Napoleonic influence actually ended feudalism in Switzlerand and gave birth to the Helvetic Republic.

The Swiss also fought in Nappy's Grande Armée during the Russian campaign, accomplishing the famous feat of protecting the remains of that retreating army:

Once Switzerland had been drawn into the French sphere of influence, it could not escape the war that raged through Europe for the next 16 years. In 1799 it was an unwilling battleground as Austrian and Russian troops tried unsuccessfully to dislodge the French. The presence of large numbers of foreign troops further impoverished the country.

The Helvetic Republic soon proved unworkable, as the parliament was torn between federalists and centralists. The country slid into civil war, causing Napoleon to intervene as "Mediator of the Helvetic Republic."

In March 1803 he passed the Act of Mediation, which left very little of the centralised republic in place. It restored the old cantonal system, though it elevated the former subject territories to cantonal status.

As a result, six new cantons were created - the first change in Confederation membership since 1513. They were Aargau, Graubünden, St Gallen, Thurgau, Ticino and Vaud.

The new constitution implicitly recognised Swiss neutrality, but the Swiss were still obliged to supply troops for the French army. This was a very unpopular measure. Although the number to be supplied was gradually cut from 18,000 to 12,000, many Swiss died fighting for France.

Their best known exploit was the battle they put up at the river Berezina during Napoleon's retreat from Moscow after his ill-fated Russian campaign of 1812. For a whole day, some 1300 Swiss troops kept off 40,000 Russians while the rest of the army (or what remained of it) crossed the river on pontoons. The cost in Swiss lives was enormous: only about 300 survived, but the French had been saved from complete destruction.

"Brave Swiss! You have fought like lions. Each of you deserves the cross of the Légion d'honneur."



General Merle, commander of the Swiss Division, after the battle of Berezina, 1812
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http://www.swissworld.org/en/history/the_18th_century/switzerland_and_napoleon/
 
There was a time when armies started peeing their pants when they new that their ennemy had Swiss mercenaries among their rank..

now we are giving up all of our traditions, including banking secrecy (We don't care a f*** if the US or French government overtax their citizens and if they try to avoid it..It's none of our buisness.. we only offer banking secrecy.. these are kind economic refugeees to us ;) ) ..

The worse of it.. We just (our president) officially APOLOGIZED to the Colonel Khadafi for having put his f***in son under arrest, because he and his wife were beating some employees during their stay in Geneva...

We had to apologize because they are retaining 2 Swiss citizens in Lybia for now a YEAR on totally false accusations.. they are actually political HOSTAGES...

And this little POS, a dictator, a terrorist, is telling us how to behave ??? this must be a joke...

I cherish those days, in my mind, when US F-111 and A-7 and A-6 were bombing the **** OUT of this despicable regime ! I whish we had the means to bomb that place to stoneage (even if they are nearly there still)

I've heard that Khadafi will be in Englewood, NY, very soon.. i'm pretty sure Lockerbie victims family will love that..

sorry, im just mad about everything lately.. fortunately I don't own any guns ;)
 
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Reading the original posters two examples of gun violence, I have to say that Switzerland may have more of an imigration problem than a gun problem. Perhaps they should be more selective in choosing to allow people into their country.
Mauserguy
 
The worse of it.. We just (our president) officially APOLOGIZED to the Colonel Khadafi for having put his f***in son under arrest, because he and his wife were beating some employees during their stay in Geneva...

We had to apologize because they are retaining 2 Swiss citizens in Lybia for now a YEAR on totally false accusations.. they are actually political HOSTAGES...

And this little POS, a dictator, a terrorist, is telling us how to behave ??? this must be a joke...
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I used to work in luxury hotels in Paris. One night I witnessed Khadafi's son Hannibal chasing his pregnant girlfriend down a corridor. She was running fast because he had a loaded gun in his hand and he actually tried to shoot her twice in the back! (it was reported in the press that he only beat her up, no mention of the gun)

He was also once arrested driving drunk at 140 KPH on the Champ Elysées avenue.

All that crap went unpunished because he had diplomatic immunity.


I am the first one to be disgusted about my country's dealings with libya, they are über-thugs who deserve a serious slapping. I am especially ashamed of the French government's refusal to let US planes fly over France in 1986.
 
that's why I wonder why people are so anti-ccw with these types of incidents increasing common.

violence is so cheap in eastern europe, so when they come they bring it with them and a glance is all the provocation they need to stab you.

what will really upset you though is this

as minors under Swiss law they will have extremely low sentences, what time they do serve will be cut in half and they'll be held in prison in Switzerland (paid for with your taxes). Once sent home, they will find their way back in illegally again.

The police work off clearance rates/statistics(often skewed) to please politicians who wish to please the electorate(general public)....or at least 'appear' to be doing something to reduce violent crime.

The reality is they can't build prisons quick enough to hold these guys that keep coming from eastern europe...and to free up prison space they have 'early release programs'....putting them back on the streets.

And all this time we have no means of being allowed to defend ourselves.

When will Europe wake up and look at the reality of how ccw works in the US to reduce violent crime, murder, rape, aggravated assault, robbery.

there is something deeply wrong.

And I'm certain while big business is happy with Schengen for financial reasons, it's the public that lives with the unwanted elements of it.
 
I am especially ashamed of the French government's refusal to let US planes fly over France in 1986
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Actually, there are serious doubts that the USAFE F-111 that took off from England actually overturned France and Spain to reach Libya.. Maybe some radars were discretely turned off that night ;)

he had a loaded gun in his hand and he actually tried to shoot her twice in the back!
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Barman, is there any proof of that somewhere ? I mean, is it only "de notoriété publique" in France ?
 
I see a few people actually tip toed NEAR the subject, but everyone was politically correct enough not to blurt it out... I am a very Non PC person. So here goes - Weren't both shooters muslim?
 
Only 1 was.. the guy from Chile must have been catholic I guess.. But I think it's more of a culture than a religion problem right here.
 
btw, I do not want to bring racism in here. I know and i have friends from both Balkans or north africa, and they are great people, and law abiding citizens..
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Sounds like "racism" is being thrust upon YOU.

You don't have to be a "racist" to understand that those born outside of your country, or to "citizens" from outside your country do NOT have the same culture and or value system as your countrymen. This is not racism.

Many "immigrants" come from places with little to no respect for any laws whatsoever, so how can they be expected to suddenly have the same respect for law as those raised in law abiding countries? They can't.

You are right in that there truly IS a price to be paid for freedom.

People die in automotive accidents EVERY day. That is the price we pay to have the freedom to own and operate automobiles.

The same applies to firearms.
 
Threads like this make me wish we could get our government to obey the constitution and issue each man an M16. :(
 
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