Thoughts on .45 flat nose ammunition for self defense in short barrel guns

[TomJ]

As I understand it, one of the issues short barrel .45's such as the XDS 3.3 have is reduced velocity in an already slow moving round. This may lead insufficient penetration. I use HST's, which I'm a big fan of and in the gel tests I saw the penetration was between 10.75 and 12 inches. Throw in heavy winter clothes or a bad angle, and I'm wondering if there's a risk of not enough penetration.

I've seen flat nose ammunition that penetrates approximately 20 inches. It's a couple of inches more than the recommended maximum, so is there really a risk of over penetration? Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of this type of round?

 

[Dr.Rob]

Most people think ball ammo is a poor choice for self defense, but in some places you can't use a hollowpoint. The flat point was an attempt to make fmj 'better'. The bigger metplat helps, it still penetrates like all fmj, but not like hardcast. There have been runs of hot 200gr +p once in a while but 230pr remains the standard.

"Heavy winter clothes" might clog your hollow point in which case it will penetrate like ball ammo. If your ammo is reliable and accurate in your firearm, don't go changing.

I know a few people with short barreled 45's that use fmj. Doubletap makes a 230 gr FPJ load rated at 1000fps in a full sized pistol. It might be the hottest and heaviest fpj you can get.

 

[Cee Zee]

My understanding is that .45 ammo generally uses fast burning powder and the velocity differences between a 3" and a 5" barrel are not that great. When you think about it both are short barrels compared to a rifle. There is probably more of an accuracy issue than a power issue but I've seen very short barrel .45's shoot very accurate. There's some .45 ammo loaded with slower burning powder generally made with the theory that a slightly longer lock time would mean better accuracy.

Then there's Gold Dot .45 ammo designed for short barrel pistols. It seems to clearly have more velocity than other cartridges in my short barrel .45.

My suggestion would be that if you're worried about velocity issues then switch to a .40S&W and go with a lighter bullet. But I trust my 3.25" barrel .45 to penetrate plenty well and expand well using the Gold Dot short barrel ammo.

 

[TwinReverb]

HSTs will work fine in winter and from short barrel guns. So will several other hollow point brands and makes.

Personally, I will always use hollow points for self defense and home defense against human beings. If I were going hunting, I might use something different, but it just depends, so I really doubt I'd switch. And I'd suggest everyone else does too, even in .380 ACP (and yes there are rounds in even .380 ACP that will penetrate enough).

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/

 

[Walt Sherrill]

While premium SD ammo may not expand when use in a short barrel, it should still penetrate as deeply as any other round with the same weight and powder behind it.

Flat nose ammo shouldn't penetrate any more deeply than any other ammo. (A blunter object shouldn't penetrate as far, but it may tear up a bit more tissue.) Penetration (to the right place) is the key; tissue damage is relatively unimportant. (I'm pretty sure that the flat-nose ammo you saw wasn't fired from a 3" or 3.5" semi-auto barrel.)

 

[mavracer]

So that I have this straight.
You think a JHP might not expand like you want so you're going to fix it by using ammo you know won't expand??????

 

[Walt Sherrill]

So that I have this straight.
You think a JHP might not expand like you want so you're going to fix it by using ammo you know won't expand??????

I think you misinterpreted what he wrote.

He was concerned about the LACK OF PENETRATION. He mentioned flat-nosed rounds that penetrated more deeply; he felt the 10+ inches mentioned were not sufficient.

His error, I think, is supposing that flat-nosed (wadcutter?) rounds will penetrate more deeply than non-expanding ammo of the same weight, when powered by the same propellant type and amount.

 

[wally]

So that I have this straight.
You think a JHP might not expand like you want so you're going to fix it by using ammo you know won't expand??????

He's worried he won't get enough penetration if it does expand because of the velocity loss in his short barrel.

I used to see no purpose for the .40S&W until I saw some 3.5" .45ACP chrono results, since the 180gr .40 has the same sectional density as the 230gr .45 the extra ~100 fps velocity of the .40S&W loads IMHO makes it the best option if you need to go below a 4" barrel.

My understanding is that .45 ammo generally uses fast burning powder and the velocity differences between a 3" and a 5" barrel are not that great.

for most loads the chronograph say differently. 850fps is the "standard" for ball ammo in a 5" barrel, drop below 750fps and I'd certainly worry about adequate penetration.

 

[Cee Zee]

for most loads the chronograph say differently. 850fps is the "standard" for ball ammo in a 5" barrel, drop below 750fps and I'd certainly worry about adequate penetration.

I've seen tests where some rounds actually fired faster from a short barrel gun for what ever reason I can't imagine. But I've seen the data that says that. Generally there seems to be about a 100fps drop going from a 5" barrel to a 3" barrel but there aren't that many barrels that short. And again they do make ammo designed to keep the velocity up even when fired from a short barrel. That means a fast burning powder. Speer claims 820 fps using their short barrel ammo with a 4" barrel. That's well above the 750fps you listed as a cut off point.

All I know for sure is that I get plenty of penetration and expansion using Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo in my Taurus PT-145 Millennium Pro. I've tested lots of ammo through that pistol and I paid particular attention because of the 3 1/4" barrel. The GDSB ammo has shown me just as much penetration and expansion as regular GD through my Sig P-220 with a 4.4" barrel.

Again I'd suggest going with a .40S&W if a person was that concerned with expansion and penetration. Personally I don't want over penetration. I want the bullet to discharge it's energy in the target. So I don't particular worry about .45 in a short barrel gun. Again I've tested the ammo myself and I'm satisfied that it does exactly what it's designed to do which is to penetrate and expand even from a short barrel pistol.

 

[TomJ]

So that I have this straight.
You think a JHP might not expand like you want so you're going to fix it by using ammo you know won't expand??????

Mavracer,

As Walt and Wally correctly pointed out, my concern is not with expansion. To the contrary, one of the benefits of HST's is that they're known to expand at slower velocities. My concern was the reduced velocities leading to insufficient penetration.

 

[wally]

I've seen tests where some rounds actually fired faster from a short barrel gun for what ever reason I can't imagine.

Extra muzzle blast from the short barrels messing up the chrono.

American Rifleman had a really embarrassing story many years back when chronographs were just starting to be common where they wanted to test the different barrel lengths in the Dan Wesson .44mag revolver and it ended up they were mostly measuring the muzzle blast.

 

[Cee Zee]

Extra muzzle blast from the short barrels messing up the chrono.

Maybe. But it was a well known gun journalist / tester where I saw those results.

 

[TomJ]

My understanding is that .45 ammo generally uses fast burning powder and the velocity differences between a 3" and a 5" barrel are not that great. When you think about it both are short barrels compared to a rifle. There is probably more of an accuracy issue than a power issue but I've seen very short barrel .45's shoot very accurate. There's some .45 ammo loaded with slower burning powder generally made with the theory that a slightly longer lock time would mean better accuracy.

Then there's Gold Dot .45 ammo designed for short barrel pistols. It seems to clearly have more velocity than other cartridges in my short barrel .45.

My suggestion would be that if you're worried about velocity issues then switch to a .40S&W and go with a lighter bullet. But I trust my 3.25" barrel .45 to penetrate plenty well and expand well using the Gold Dot short barrel ammo.

Cee Zee,

The Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition is a great round, and I use it in one of my 9's. Unfortunately, it does not feed well in this gun as it's picky about ammo, where the HST's do.

 

[DeepSouth]

A few years ago I shot a 140'ish lb white tail with a PM45, which has a 3.3" barrel if memory serves. The projectile was just under the hide on the out going side, even after hitting a rib.

That was a 230gr gold dot, can't remember if it was a short barrel or not.
After that I switched to 200gr gold dots and I no fear of under penetration, I am more concerned with over penetration than under penetration.

It's really not as much difference as people tend to think.

 

[BlindJustice]

From ballistics By The Inch

.45 ACP
Federal Hydra Shok 230 gr. JHP
5" = 895 fps
4" = 865 FPS
3" = 787 FPS

or a light +P
Corbon +P 185 gr. DPX
5" = 1102 fps
4" = 1060 FPS
3" = 967 FPS

My thoughts are .45 ACP loses a higher percentage with < 4" bbl. len.
than higher pressure rounds, such as 9x19 or .40 S&W

Speers Short Barrel Ammo

.45 ACP Regular ammo is measured with a 5" Bbl.
Short Barrel is 4" For 9x19 and .40 S&W the
Bbl. length Regular 4" short Barrel 3.5"

FWIW - Speer Lawman ofers a TMJ Flat Nose 200 gr.
that's 950 w/./5" bbl. Shoots with less recoil in my
Commander or Range Officer Compact but I don't
see it on the shelves much.

Randall

Randall

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Keep in mind that the 45 ACP was developed replicate revolver rounds engineered to bring down calvalry horses by fracturing or breaking bones. It may not be the best round for the human torso. Lighter and faster seems to be the ticket. To paraphrase George Patton, if you want to scare somebody, use a 45. If you want to kill them, get a 357.

 

[eldon519]

Maybe look at Ranger T or Ranger Bonded, it tends to expand a little less and penetrate a little more than HST from what I've seen.

 

[RainDodger]

First, I have to qualify this response by saying I haven't read everyone else's response... I know that Speer makes their Gold Dot bullets (and I assume loaded rounds as well), specifically for short barreled guns. The cavity in the bullet is shaped differently for their short barrel version.

I carry a 3.3" Springfield XDs with hand loads made up with Speer's short barreled version of the Gold Dot bullets. You might consider that. That being said, personally I would shy away from flat nosed bullets in any self defense handgun unless I know it is 100% reliable in the gun. I'd rather carry .45 FMJ round noses than flat points that could potentially fail to chamber.

 

[derek45]

here's a you-tube video of SPEER Gold-Dot Short barrel

Springfield Armory XDs 3.3

expanded and penetrated 11.75" gelatin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lV8wwCzsso

 

[MICHAEL T]

I use Corbon 185 +P DPX in my Defender and old Detonics gets the speed back up . I also use in my Commanders .

 

[mavracer]

since the 180gr .40 has the same sectional density as the 230gr .45

Right up to the point they expand.

the extra ~100 fps velocity of the .40S&W loads

Even with a 100 fps advantage the 40 still gives up about 10% of the momentum the 45 has, so given they expand to the same diameter the 45 will have greater sectional density and penatrate deeper or the 45 can expand to 10% larger surface area and it'll still penatrate the same.

As to the original question as bullets slow they expand less leading to more penatration as they speed up they expand more and penatrate less, as long as you're in the window where they expand reliably and don't fragment they're going to work pretty good given proper design.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

You can draw your own conclusions here about the .45 ACP as a human take down round. This cop went from big and slow to lighter, faster and a whole lot more rounds:

http://www.policeone.com/police-her...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

As sidebar, placement of the shotgun on the underside of the squad car roof was an ominous mistake. Shotguns should be mounted on the floor over the doghouse with the stock facing the driver in a position whereby the occupant can readily bring the shotgun with him or her upon vehicle exit.

 

[Steve C]

From a strictly analytical view a plain flat nose solid non expanding bullet doesn't provide any significant effect greater than a round nose. Choice of ammo is 90% how people "feel" about their ammo and if they think the flat nose is better it gives them a good "feeling" and increases their confidence warranted or not.

Hollow points need a minimum velocity to expand with some reliability that is somewhat variable depending upon their design. A HP bullet that doesn't expand is basically the same as any solid bullet but if it will reliably feed and its accurate in your gun you may as well use an HP.

There are some new solid copper bullets with fluted design that produce HP like wound effect in gelatin that could be an option for those living in NJ that doesn't allow HP bullets or for a potentially more effective round in guns that give too low a velocity for reliable HP expansion. Google Lehigh Defense ammo for more information.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

This might help in your choice of caliber. Interesting to note with small arms the .32 ACP has the highest percentage of one-shot incapacitation at 72%, albeit the sample is perhaps statistically too small to draw informed conclusions. The 45 ACP by comparison came in at a lowly 51% in that same category.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power

 

[TomJ]

This might help in your choice of caliber. Interesting to note with small arms the .32 ACP has the highest percentage of one-shot incapacitation at 72%, albeit the sample is perhaps statistically too small to draw informed conclusions. The 45 ACP by comparison came in at a lowly 51% in that same category.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power

Interesting read. Depending on a number of factors, such as what I'm wearing, where I'm going, etc., I carry and have confidence in 9mm, 40 and 45. I don't know enough about the other calibers to judge them. My question/concern was the penetration of 45 hollow points from a short barrel gun. You're correct in that if I'm not confident in that caliber with that gun, that I need to look at another caliber when carrying a smaller gun. As I type this, I'm carrying a LC9S Pro with HST 124 grain +P's.