Thoughts on a British .303 Enfield

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Well I went down there this morning, and bought the rifle for $230.00 along with the 2 boxes of Sellier & Bellot ammo. Took it home and cleaned it up a bit before I took it out and shot it. (one box of the described ammo). Shot it off hand, has a really decent trigger pull once I got used to it, at 50 yards. Nothing to brag about had a 3"X4" group right about where I was aiming, with 10 rounds. Note they spread out but I do believe it was me. Next time I'll take the bench, and see how they perform. Plan on reloading for it as soon as I get the dies and the bullets. Below are several of the pictures that turned out.

You got a deal!! That is about what those cost when they came into the country in the mid 90's. The MKII were the best built of the No 4's and it shows in the lack of tool marks and tight fitting. Of the No 4 MK1's, the Long Branch show the best fit and finish, and yet, their chambers look like they were cut with wood rasps. The MKII's have nice clear cut rifling, a nice smooth tapered throat. Simply the best of the bunch.

I shot mine, I did not conduct extensive load development , and what loads did work, I used WC852 powder, which is a surplus powder. I think IMR 4064 or equivalent is the best powder to start, Varget if you have it. The 303 Brit was not a high pressure round by today's standards, the pressure was kept in the low 40 K psia range. I think the upper limit was 45,000 psia, but with this action, lower is better than higher. While the action is relatively weak, I would not say that about the round. Any round pushing a 174 grain bullet 2500-2550 fps is a powerful round. The 303 Brit has wacked everything on the earth, every mammal specie, and every race of human. Lot of unsatisfied customers. :what: The World War One sniper, Herbert McBride made comments on the ability of the round to put round holes in square heads. Compared to modern service rounds, like the 7.62 X 39, 5.56 Nato, the 303 Brit is a cannon.

I shot Greek ball through my MkII and this are the velocities I got:

No. 4 MkII mfgr 12/53

174 Greek Ball ammo mfgr 1970

9-May-92 T ≈ 70 °F

Ave Vel =2488
Std Dev = 12
ES = 27
Low = 2473
High = 2500
N = 5


174 grain Greek Ball HXP 70

8 Feb 2012 T = 50 °F

Ave Vel =2423
Std Dev = 14
ES = 53
High = 2456
Low = 2403
N = 14


180 grain Winchester Silvertip Factory Ammunition

8 Feb 2012 T = 50 °F

Ave Vel =2297
Std Dev = 14
ES = 46
High = 2319
Low = 2273
N = 10


That Winchester factory ammunition is positively anemic, but then, they are selling ammunition to the world. The US does not have proof laws such as the European countries. I know for Germany and Britain, and probably all the others, you have to submit the rifle to a proof house prior to a private sale. If the rifle does not pass inspection, gaging, and final proof testing, you can't sell it. Final proof testing is conducted with a lubricated case and a proof round about 20-30% over standard pressures. The lube is there to ensure the locking mechanism is fully loaded, which makes the proof test technically valid. If the case was dry and the chamber was dry, then the case will take load, reducing the load on the bolt, but stretching the case. Incidentally, according to pre 1968 German proof law, the proof house destroyed the whole gun if it failed proof compliance. Then the law was changed, no doubt to the regret of the Proof House workers who probably had fun destroying expensive rifles, after a buttplate screw fell out!. Now, only the defective part is made inoperable. But, the point is, European ammunition manufacturers know that the weapons in European civilian hands are 100% up to snuff, and they can produce ammunition that would blow the relics in American hands, to pieces.

Which explains why Winchester produces such anemic ammunition, Americans have a lot of rusted out, worn out, out of spec, military weapons in their hands.

Case stretch is a continual issue with Lee Enfields as rear locking actions stretch much more than front locking action. Basically, lets say steel compresses about 0.001" per inch (SWAG). And the locking lugs are four inches behind the bolt head, then that four inch spread will compress the bolt 0.004" when the rifle is fired. That distance, plus the headspace in the rifle, means that rear locking mechanisms are hell on the case. The case gets stretched 0.004" just due to bolt compression alone. Dry cases in dry chambers will be stretched so much in Lee Enfields that cases will separate in as little as two to three reloads. Some people have tried to compensate for the headspace, that is remove the headspace, by adding O rings ahead of the rim. I think that was a poor solution. The best solution is what Parashooter did in his Lee Enfield, lubing the cases:

Cases and Enfields and lube - Oh my!
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=11182

As long as cartridge pressures are less than or equal to service requirements, the action won't be damaged. Over pressure loads are easy to figure out in the Lee Enfield, the bolt gets very hard to open, because it bows. Load down to the point where bolt lift is effortless and everything will be fine, your cartridges will last forever, and the mechanism will be fine.
 
Nothing wrong with .303. Serves well for target shooting or hunting.

I've actually got an uncle that still hunts with an old chopped down SMLE No4 Mk1. He's 100% disabled (bad car accident about 25 years ago left him barely able to walk) and on a fixed income so it's all he can afford. He still manages to tag a couple deer every season with it. It's not nearly as pretty as the other rifles around here but the deer are just as dead ;).
 
Keep in mind Enfields are still used in military service by the Canadian Rangers and many other Commonwealth areas.

They are the longest continually serving combat rifles in history. Fantastic guns, even today. I wouldn't feel unarmed with one in a fight. Very fast and quick to reload.
 
Keep in mind Enfields are still used in military service by the Canadian Rangers and many other Commonwealth areas.

They are the longest continually serving combat rifles in history. Fantastic guns, even today. I wouldn't feel unarmed with one in a fight. Very fast and quick to reload.
Actually that honor goes to the Mosin Nagant (1891), which Finland still has in limited use. The Enfield has enough significant variants that you can't exactly date by the original design, either, whereas the Mosin's changes are all on the front end with no alterations to the action itself.
 
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Slamfire, I thank ya kindly for the information on the Enfield rifle. The longer I stayed tuned in here, the more I'm beginning to learn about this rifle. I never load to max on my military type firearms, and do a full length resizing on all the cases, before trimming them. I generally chronograph my loads from the bench, while developing a load also.
 
Neck sizing for that Enfield is the generally accepted way to preserve your cases as many, but not all, have generous chambers. Cast boolit loads with neck sizing is even better. Good luck with your Mk. 4 No. 2, but Lee-Enfields have a way of multiplying.
 
Slamfire, I thank ya kindly for the information on the Enfield rifle. The longer I stayed tuned in here, the more I'm beginning to learn about this rifle. I never load to max on my military type firearms, and do a full length resizing on all the cases, before trimming them. I generally chronograph my loads from the bench, while developing a load also.

For this rifle, I do recommend lubricating the fireformed cases and neck sizing, or partial neck sizing. The basic problem I found between my various Lee Enfields is that the shoulder to base distance is chaotic. Shoulders typically get blown way far forward which, in a dry case in a dry chamber situation, really stretch the sidewall. Plus, shoulder shape varies. I have Lee Enfields that produce rounded shoulders, my Mark II's give a slope. Not putting a great deal of stress on the case by lubing, at least when fire forming, is the best way to go in my opinion. Fireforming lubed cases has is becoming a standard practice with the Bench Rest crowd:

Fireforming

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?53679-FEEDBACK-FROM-THE-TUNNEL-IN-WEST-TEXAS-
Once in a while, a real jewel of information comes along that really makes a difference. Such is the case with this little known secret of fireforming.

In his recently published book, "Extreme Rifle Accuracy" Mike Ratigan reveals his procedure for fireforming. By the way, if you have not obtained a copy of Mike's book, I strongly urge you to do so as soon as possible.

Beginning on page 114, under 'Fire Forming Secrets' Mike explains why it is so important to lubricate the case the first time it is fired. I not only lubricate the case but also fire the first time with only 20 grains of N133, H322, 8208, Benchmark or whatever I'm using. This insures that the case slides back firmly against the bolt face thereby preventing stretching the case wall in the critical web area.

This is very important. Why? It prevents the cases from tightening up in the chamber prematurely. A properly fireformed case, sized with a good die that fits the chamber, goes in and out of the rifle like butter and lasts almost forever.

Questions? Let's talk about it.

Not that you will get bench rest accuracy out of a Lee Enfield, the typical Lee Enfield was a 3-4 MOA rifle. Your barrel is a five groove and one of the better ones, might do around 3 MOA. Also, look up information on the bedding of these things if your accuracy with good bullets is poor. I have restored the bedding on a Lithgow, Savage, and a MKII. Ensuring that the action lugs were securely bedded, by using epoxy glue (might have been Marine Tex) around the fore end lug recess in the Lithgow and No 4 MK1 Savage really improved their accuracy. The best they would go was 8 MOA, then properly bedded, the groups became 4 MOA for the Lithgow and 3 MOA for the Savage. Tinkering with the MKII and bedding that action did nothing in terms of accuracy improvement. It was a 3 MOA plus rifle and that is all that it would do.
 
It is a shame that so many military rifles are doomed to a life hunkered down over a 100 yard benchrest. Doesn't matter if it is a Long Lee Enfield or a M4gery, that is not what they are FOR, and trying to get 21st century target rifle performance out of them is just going to lead to frustration.


"A smart uniform to wear, a fast aeroplane to fly, and Germans to shoot at. What more can a young man ask for?"
RAF Commandant.
 
It is a shame that so many military rifles are doomed to a life hunkered down over a 100 yard benchrest. Doesn't matter if it is a Long Lee Enfield or a M4gery, that is not what they are FOR, and trying to get 21st century target rifle performance out of them is just going to lead to frustration.

Jim: Try to find a range where every firing point is not covered up with a bench. It is hard to find one where you can lay down on your shooting mat and shoot standing, sitting, or prone with a sling. By the way, the CMP range at Talladega, you can move the benches out of the way and shoot prone with a sling!

They have electronic targets, digital readouts, running water, bathrooms! This place is a shooter's paradise!

DSCF4661%20Club%20house_zpszhrpczm5.jpg

DSCF4657%20John%20Garand_zpscyzrjwxs.jpg

DSCF4662_zpsaiutd0e6.jpg

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DSCF4660%20600%20yard%20range_zpsfhwyza7g.jpg

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I have gone hunting with a Lee Enfield, saw nothing and shot nothing. I would love to take the thing Boar Hunting with a sword bayonet on a No 1 MKIII! To have a big piggy charge and to accept his charge with a bayonet, that would be a hoot!
 
Actually that honor goes to the Mosin Nagant (1891), which Finland still has in limited use. The Enfield has enough significant variants that you can't exactly date by the original design, either, whereas the Mosin's changes are all on the front end with no alterations to the action itself.
But not in it's original form. The Finns are currently using a rifle with sometimes very old, even 19th century, Mosin Nagant M1891 receivers, but the gun is heavily modified and modernized.
 
It is a shame that so many military rifles are doomed to a life hunkered down over a 100 yard benchrest. Doesn't matter if it is a Long Lee Enfield or a M4gery, that is not what they are FOR, and trying to get 21st century target rifle performance out of them is just going to lead to frustration.


"A smart uniform to wear, a fast aeroplane to fly, and Germans to shoot at. What more can a young man ask for?"
RAF Commandant.
Heh, speak for yourself. Fortunately I get to shoot on military ranges every now and then and they have reactive Fig11 targets out to 2km or so. I've taken the ol' Enfield No4Mk1 out to 900m which is really fun!
 
It is a shame that so many military rifles are doomed to a life hunkered down over a 100 yard benchrest. Doesn't matter if it is a Long Lee Enfield or a M4gery, that is not what they are FOR, and trying to get 21st century target rifle performance out of them is just going to lead to frustration.


"A smart uniform to wear, a fast aeroplane to fly, and Germans to shoot at. What more can a young man ask for?"
RAF Commandant.
Jim, you are so right.

They are battle weapons. I shoot them like they are, too. Nothing much more fun than running around the creek, firing offhand at targets while reloading with stripper clips from original ammo pouches. It really gives you a better feel for the way these guns were used. Same goes for guns like my G3 clone. A bench rest shooter I am not! But some love it, more power to 'em. :)
 
This rifle is fairly common with hunters in rural parts of Canada and has been so for a few generations. This cartridge has what it takes to down big game.

TR
 
Slamfire , now that is definitely a range, mine is desert as far as the eye can see, I do have my own portable bench, have my ground pad available, and have always been interested in the ballistics of different rounds, especially the military. I've also got quite an assortment of steel targets. Now Jim as far as getting to the point of shooting the gun as was intended, well I plan on doing just that as soon as I develop a load it likes, and shooting from a bench definitely saves on the Chronograph machine. :D:D:D
 
Thanks Gordon, I did try them but I must have screwed up something as it didn't go thru, that is an amazing price on loaded ammo, I'll try again here shortly.

Gordon my order just went thru, must have been a glitch in the computer or something, I've never been much of a computer wiz.
 
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There are 2 holes in the buttstock, accessible through the door in the buttplate. The larger hole is for the brass (or plastic) oiler and the twine pull-through. The smaller hole is for the brass weight on the end of the pull-through. There is a specific way of wrapping the pull-through so that everything fits properly.

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but the OP's rifle may have an incorrect magazine. Look at the grooves on the side of the magazine. Magazines for the No. 1 Mk. III have grooves that go all the way to the bottom, while those for the No. 4 have grooves that stop slightly short of the bottom. A No. 1 magazine can be made to work in a No. 4, but requires modifications.

The ammo chargers (clips) for the Enfield are a whole subject for study in themselves. The most practical chargers for use are the Mk. IV's (they have an elongated hole on the spring end). Avoid the Italian-made Mk. III's (with the round hole on the spring end). They are really too stiff for easy loading.

A myriad of companies made chargers. Some people collect chargers by manufacturer. (For example, the "BP" marking stands for "British Pens.")
 
Alexander, ya had me wondering as the serial number on the magazine doesn't even come close to the number on the receiver and the bolt. However the grooves only go down to just above the base of the magazine. The magazine slips in without any problems at all and feeds the cartridges really well. Haven't been able to find any stripper clips for it yet, but then again I just recently ordered some additional ammo in order to get some brass to reload. See above. Hope to get some stripper clips for it as well in the near future.
 
If you need new (or newish) original magazines for the No. 4 Enfield, I've found that the best source for them is Marstar Canada. They're pricey, though. With postage, they run about $80 US each. You can sometimes find them on ebay for a tad less.
 
Alexander I do believe I'll pass on that, would like to get some stripper clips though.

I forget who mentioned that Sellier & Bellot ammo is junk, well ya got that right. I finally got my dies and bullets this morning and set up the RCBS dies, knocked out the primers no problem, sized the casings etc. then it came time to insert the primers, I could not get a CCI large rifle primer inserted in those cases. About gave up on them, and then I tried a Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primer and low and behold, they went in, but really had to force them. Never saw such a pain in the butt. BTW I did clean and swage the primer pockets.
 
S&B brass is not good for reloading. My experience is the case head will separate once relaoded (I only neck size), and the primer pockets are a bit shallow.
 
Try to get some of the 1970's vintage Greek surplus .303 ammo (HXP headstamp). This is noncorrosive and has standard Boxer primers. A lot of people swear by that for reloading.

It's even better if you can get it on stripper clips for the same price. The clips themselves have been going for up to $3 each.
 
Alexander, Where might I find some of those Greek rounds and stripper clips?

Cheaper Than Dirt blew out a whole bunch of this a year and a half ago for 45 cents a round (including shipping). People are currently reselling it on Gun Broker for anywhere between 60 cents and $1 a round.
 
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