Thoughts on current KaBars?

The USMC fighting/utility knife is easily surpassed by many other full tang knives.
I understand what you say here, but I'm still conflicted. The Ka-Bar is still considered by most to be an iconic knife design and has certainly proven itself in the real world over the years. Disclaimer: I am not by any means a "knife expert." I have, however, been hunting and camping (in severe conditions) since I was in grade school, spent more than 25 years active duty military.

Personally, I like the design; I like the size, and while the steel might not be the most corrosion resistant or strongest, it's still easy to sharpen, holds an edge reasonably well and is proven durable for most uses. Let's face it -- who uses a large fixed-blade "fighting knife" on an everyday basis anymore? If we're gonna worry about the best knives out there for day in, day out usage, let's concern ourselves with kitchen and chef's knives.

I don't know what the "traditional short model" of the Ka-Bar is, not gonna Google it tonight, but I will go on record as saying I still have an abiding fondness for the original. (Fortunately, I can buy them at the base exchanges for $69-79 all the time, and I enjoy gifting them to family and friends). They still have the Olean NY markings on them. Last one I bought was about three months ago.

My concern about the demise of OKC is, who's gonna make the AFSK, its variants and the Navy Mk 3 now?

favorite fixed blade.jpg
 
This is the short model, same as the classic but with a 5.25" blade.
Ah, I see... we need to hook you up with someone who can find you one of these on base at a much better price (with no sales tax, too). Guess I didn't know before that I needed one of these, but I do now, thanks!
 
The Ka-Bar is still considered by most to be an iconic knife design
I doubt we could find anyone that doesn't consider the USMC Fighting/Utility knife/USN Mk 2 to be an iconic design (at least in the "first world"). I own WWII examples from each of the companies (Camillus, Union Cutlery, PAL, Robeson) that made them for the military. But designs evolve as lessons are learned. Is it a good design? Of course. Is it the best design? Not any longer. Does that make it useless? Of course not. Would I recommend it over all others? Nope, there are better now for any use (and just general use). Is it iconic? Unquestionably, but being iconic is more than being the best and is an emotionally loaded issue.

BTW, a pet peve is calling the style "the Ka-Bar" since Ka-Bar is a brand that is associated with the design vs. the designers or even the original government contractor or even the most prolific contractor during the wars (Camillus). Ka-Bar is the popular name for the style while KA-BAR is a trademark and adopted name of the related knife company, KA-BAR Knives., Inc. (Union Cutlery Co. when the knife was first made for the military) of Olean, New York. Tons of the knives were carried home after WWII and were seen in endless movies and TV shows. They filled stores with the manufacturing capacity left over from WWII and cemented the knife in popular culture. I've said before that "Ka-Bar" got the fame, but Camillus "won the game" as the first and largest supplier of the knives to the U.S. military. Camillus and Ontario that had military contracts for a wide range of military knives for decades after WWII are "gone" now and KA-BAR remains. In that sense KA-BAR has won the long game. They are part of the larger CutCo, a knife company worth hundreds of millions, and that may be the key to their survival...as much as the mythology, sentiment, and popularity of "the Ka-Bar".

Here's a very thorough history that isn't marketing or myth - https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Ka-Bar

History​


The owner of KA-BAR trademark, the Union Cutlery Co. of Olean, New York, began using the name on its knives and in its advertising in 1923[5] after receiving a testimonial letter from a fur trapper, who used the knife to kill a wounded bear that attacked him after his rifle jammed.[6] According to company records, the letter was only partially legible, with "ka bar" readable as fragments of the phrase "kill a bear".[7][8][9][6][10][11] In 1923, the company adopted the name KA-BAR from the "bear story" as their trademark.[5][6] Beginning in 1923, the KA-BAR trademark was used as a ricasso stamp by Union Cutlery Co. on its line of automatic switchblade pocket knives, including the KA-BAR Grizzly, KA-BAR Baby Grizzly, and KA-BAR Model 6110 Lever Release knives.[12]


World War II​


After the United States' entry into World War II, complaints arose from Army soldiers[13][14] and Marines[15] issued World War I-era bronze or alloy-handled trench knives such as the U.S. Mark I trench knife for use in hand-to-hand fighting. The Mark I was relatively expensive and time-consuming to manufacture, and reports from the field indicated that the knife's large 'brass-knuckle' fingerguard handle made it difficult to secure in conventional scabbards while limiting the range of useful fighting grip positions.[4][16] Another criticism was that the Mark I's relatively thin blade was prone to breakage when used for common utility tasks such as cutting wire, opening ammunition crates and ration tins.[4] A final impetus came from the War Department, which had determined the need for a new multipurpose knife capable of fulfilling the roles of both a fighting and a utility knife, while at the same time conserving strategic metal resources.[17]

The Marine Corps authorized limited issuance of a fighting knife with a stiletto blade design, the Marine Raider Stiletto designed by Lt. Col. Clifford H. Shuey, a Marine Corps engineering officer. Shuey's pattern was essentially a copy of the Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife with altered material specifications designed to reduce dependence on critical strategic metals. The Raider stiletto was initially issued to elite Marine forces, including the entire 1st Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Colonel Merritt A. Edson,[18] the USMC 1st Parachute Battalion, and to Marines of the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Lt. Col. Evans F. Carlson.[19] Primarily intended as a thrusting (stabbing) weapon, the Marines of the 1st Raider battalion found the Raider stiletto to be well designed for silent killing, but was of little use for any other purpose, and too frail for general utility tasks.[18] After their first combat, many Marines in the 2nd Raider Battalion exchanged their Raider stilettos for No. 17 and No. 18 Collins general-purpose short machetes (machetes pequeños) purchased with unit funds.[19] The Collins machetes,[20] which superficially resembled a large Bowie knife, were also issued to some Army air crews as part of the Jungle Emergency Sustenance Kit of 1939.[19]

In the absence of suitable officially issued knives, a number of Marines deploying for combat in 1942 obtained their personal knives through private purchase, usually hunting/utility patterns such as Western States Cutlery Co.'s pre-war L76 and L77 pattern knives, both of which had 7-inch (180 mm) Bowie type clip blades and leather handles.[2] The Western States L77 was stocked at the San Diego Base Exchange at the onset of the war, and knives of this pattern were carried by many Marines in the 1st Marine Division as well as by Marine Raiders in the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion commanded by Lt. Col. Evans F. Carlson.[2][18]

In response to a specification requesting for a modern individual fighting knife design for the U.S. Marines, ordnance and quartermaster officials requested submissions from several military knife and tool suppliers to develop a suitable fighting and utility knife for individual Marines, using the U.S. Navy Mark 1 utility knife and existing civilian hunting/utility knives such as Western's L77 as a basis for further improvements.[1] Working with Union Cutlery, USMC Colonel John M. Davis and Major Howard E. America contributed several important changes, including a longer, stronger blade, the introduction of a small fuller to lighten the blade, a peened pommel (later replaced by a pinned pommel), a straight (later, slightly curved) steel crossguard, and a stacked leather handle for better grip.[1][2] The blade, guard, and pommel were coated with a non-reflective matte phosphate finish instead of the brightly polished steel of the original prototype.[1] The design was given the designation of 1219C2.[1] Notably, the 1219C2 used a thicker blade stock than that of the USN Mark 1 utility knife, and featured a stout clip point.[1] After extensive trials, the 1219C2 prototype was recommended for adoption.[21] The Marines' Quartermaster at the time initially refused to order the knives, but his decision was overruled by the Commandant.[8][9][10] The Marine Corps adopted the new knife on November 23, 1942, still under the designation 1219C2.[2]

The 1219C2 proved easy to manufacture; the first production run was shipped by Camillus Cutlery Co. on January 27, 1943.[2] After the U.S. Navy became disenchanted with blade failures on the USN Mark 1 utility knife, the latter service adopted the 1219C2 as the US Navy Utility Knife, Mark 2.[22] The Marine Corps in turn re-designated the 1219C2 as either the USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife, or simply the Knife, Fighting Utility. In naval service, the knife was used as a diving and utility knife from late 1943 onward, though the stacked leather handle tended to rot and disintegrate rapidly in saltwater.

The Marine Corps issued USMC Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife throughout Marine forces, with early deliveries going primarily to elite formations. In late 1943 the 1219C2 replaced the Marine Raider Stiletto in service, a change welcomed by the marines of Col. Edson's 1st Raider Battalion, who found the Raider stiletto ideal for silent killing but of little use for anything else.[18] As the knife went into large-scale production, the Marines issued the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife to reconnaissance and engineering units and to any Marine armed with the pistol, M1 carbine, BAR, or crew-served machine gun (rifle-armed Marines were typically issued a bayonet). Marines were often issued knives with "U.S.N. Mark 2" markings when Navy-issued Mark 2 knives were all that was available.[2] By 1944 the USMC Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife was issued to virtually any Marine in the combat branches who desired one, and was in use by Marine Corps close combat instructors for training new recruits.[23] Unlike the prior Marine Raider stiletto, Marines were taught to use their new knife primarily as a slashing weapon in the initial phases of hand-to-hand combat.[24]

As its new name implied, the "Knife, Fighting Utility" was designed from the outset as a dual-purpose knife: it was both an effective combat knife and a utility tool, well-suited to the type of jungle warfare encountered by Marines in the Pacific theater.[23] This dual-purpose design resulted in some initial criticism of the pattern as being less than ideal for knife fighting, but combat experience of returning veterans as well as field reports from the battlefield soon dispelled any doubts about its combat effectiveness.[23][25]

After the Second World War, the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps continued to use the Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knife. In addition to military contract knives, the knife was produced for the civilian market, and the pattern enjoyed some popularity as a general-purpose hunting and utility knife.[26]


Manufacturers and the "KA-BAR" name​


Camillus Cutlery Co., the first manufacturer to supply the 1219C2 combat knife under contract, also produced the largest number of such knives, producing over 1 million examples marked "Camillus.N.Y." on the blade's ricasso before the war ended.[2] Besides Camillus, the Union Cutlery Co., Robeson (ShurEdge) Cutlery Co., and the PAL Cutlery Co. all produced the Mark 2 combat/fighting utility knife under military contract during World War II.[27] The Union Cutlery Company, the first company to manufacture a knife trademarked KA-BAR, was founded in 1897 as the Tidioute Cutlery Co.[5] The Tidioute Cutlery Co. was dissolved and its assets taken over by Wallace R. Brown, who renamed the company Union Razor Co. which shortly thereafter became the Union Cutlery Company in 1909, headquartered in Olean, New York.[5]

Of the four wartime manufacturers, Union Cutlery Co. was the sole wartime knife manufacturer to stamp all Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives they made for the military with their "KA-BAR" trademark on the blade's ricasso, and was second only to Camillus in terms of production, producing about 1 million knives during the wartime contract.[2] Because of this prominent trademark, Marines as early as 1944 began universally referring to their new combat knife as the "KA-BAR", regardless of manufacturer.[23][28] The popular designation of the knife as the "KA-BAR" may also have resulted from contact with Marine Corps close combat instructors in San Diego, who appear to have used the term "KA-BAR" when training recruits in the skill of knife fighting.[23]

After the end of World War II, Utica Cutlery Co., Conetta Cutlery Co., Camillus Cutlery Co., and (beginning around 1980) the Ontario Knife Co. all produced the Mark 2 under contract for the U.S. military.[2] From approximately 1945-1952, Weske Cutlery Co. of Sandusky, Ohio purchased leftover and overrun parts from wartime Mark 2 knife contractors and assembled them into knives for commercial sale, polishing out the original manufacturer and military markings, and fitting them with ungrooved leather handles.[29] Though W.R. Case made two prototype 1219C2 knives as part of a contract submission in 1942-43, no contract was ever awarded to Case for the production of military Mark 2 Combat/Fighting Utility knives, either during or after World War II. In 1992, Case would release a modern commemorative of these prototypes, the Case XX USMC Fighting Utility Knife. The Case XX USMC Fighting Utility knife is actually manufactured for Case by Ontario Knife Co[citation needed].

From 1923 until 1952, KA-BAR remained a legal trademark of Union Cutlery Company. However, in 1952 Union Cutlery renamed itself KA-BAR Cutlery Inc. in order to capitalize on widespread public recognition of the "KA-BAR" name and trademark, which had by then become synonymous with the well-regarded but confusingly titled USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife or Knife, Fighting Utility of the late war.[2] While the company name changed, KA-BAR, Inc.'s headquarters are still located in Olean, New York. Cutco Corporation, manufacturer of Cutco Cutlery, acquired the company in 1996.[30]

Service​

KA-BAR makes Army and Navy versions as well as USMC versions.[1] They are the same as the Marine version except for different initials at the bottom of the blade and different symbols on the sheath. Marines today often give the blades, guards and pommels of their knives a few coats of non-reflective matte black spray paint to reduce reflected light and give them a little more protection against saltwater corrosion.[1] Its moderate carbon and low chromium steel mixture allows the blade to hold an edge very well. The 1095 chrome-vanadium steel[citation needed] used in the blades of contemporary KA-BARs has a hardness of 56–58 HRC, while the guard and pommel are made from sintered 1095 carbon steel. Besides use as a fighting knife, the Mark 2 has proven its usefulness as a utility knife, used for opening cans, digging trenches, and cutting wood, roots, wire, and cable.[1] In 1995, the design was updated with a tool steel blade, synthetic handle, and synthetic sheath marketed as "The Next Generation".[4] As of June 2012 the "Next Generation" models have been discontinued.
 
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If we're gonna worry about the best knives out there for day in, day out usage, let's concern ourselves with kitchen and chef's knives.

That's true for the kitchen, but I wouldn't misapply a kitchen knife out in the woods (although my wife will use a Spyderco serrated kitchen knife for just about anything outside) any more than I would willingly use a Mk2 in the kitchen. I wouldn't leave a Rapala fishing knife in the garge in favor of a kitchen knife or Mk2 either when headed for the dock. Being realistic, we pick knives for their best application. I use a santoku for most things in the kitchen instead of the "classic" French chef's, a fillet knife on fish, and a SAK Master Craftsman for EDC. I'm as sentimental as anyone about knives (my collection sure reflects a near obsession with them), but my knowledge and use of them is based on experience and knowledge. If I was limited to one knife it wouldn't be the Mk2.
 
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The USMC Ka-bar is an icon with status similar to the M-1 rifle. Both were good in their day, but that day was 80 years ago.

For a utility trunk knife I would recommend a Glock 81, a BK 16, or if you want more of a sharpened crowbar, a Becker Campanion. A SOGfari might also meet your big knife needs.
 
The USMC Ka-bar is an icon with status similar to the M-1 rifle. Both were good in their day, but that day was 80 years ago.

For a utility trunk knife I would recommend a Glock 81, a BK 16, or if you want more of a sharpened crowbar, a Becker Campanion. A SOGfari might also meet your big knife needs.
Forgot about the Glock knife, good suggestion. Are they all still made in Austria?
 
As far as I know, still made in Austria. I don't think they have ever revealed their choice of steel, but there are many torture tests on the video channel. One thing to watch out for is counterfeits. Buy from a reputable seller.
 
As far as I know, still made in Austria. I don't think they have ever revealed their choice of steel, but there are many torture tests on the video channel. One thing to watch out for is counterfeits. Buy from a reputable seller.
Doesn't look like Glock sells them direct from the website. Midway has em for $30, I would think they should be GTG unless you have a better suggestion.
 
Spyderco, CRKT, Cold Steel individually top KaBar in sales volume. Financials from Zoominfo - Case 95M$, Buck 79M$, KAI 38M$, SOG 21M$, Gerber 28M$, Microtech 20M$, Spyderco 21M$, Benchmade 95M$, kaBar ... 5M$

Post should have read "my" favorite knife brand. I have plenty of other knives but Benchmade and Kabar make up the bulk of my hard use knives.
 
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Which one you like better? The long one seems a little bulky for general woods carry.

With a little work, the Short Ka-Bar makes a great utility field knife.

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One of the things to note about the Short Ka-Bar, is that even though the blade and handle are smaller and shorter, the tang is the same size, just shortened.

Makes for a more rugged design.

Still baton on the outside, with a soft grip/wrist, just in case.

And the plumbing washers in the handle grooves really fill out and improve the grip, as does removing the top guard.
 
Other treatments include stripping off the black paint with Citristrip and a razor blade, followed by a short acid-etch with vinegar (coupla minutes) for a poor man's parkerizing.

The leather handle was wire brushed, treated with sno-seal and left in the sun until it wouldn't take any more, and then wiped and buffed with paper towels.

The current models have the "high grind", which I had to do myself.
 
My old Navy buddy just bought a KaBar Becker Companion at SMKW when we went the other day. That knife is a PIG!
 
We can be pretty confident that the USMC Fighting Utility inspired knife by Spartan is a huge upgrade to KaBar's production knife (and reflected by price too).
Yeah, in MagnaCut, too. I was surprised they're only asking $335 for it. I'd paid (IIRC) around $420 a piece for the Difensas but I'm thinking a Ka-Bar by Spartan might be a nice addition, and I haven't bought any new knives for a couple of weeks...
 
Yeah, in MagnaCut, too. I was surprised they're only asking $335 for it. I'd paid (IIRC) around $420 a piece for the Difensas but I'm thinking a Ka-Bar by Spartan might be a nice addition, and I haven't bought any new knives for a couple of weeks...
DO IT.

But pay $385 to get the Chattanooga Leather Works kydex sheath upgrade. The Ka-Bar leather sheath is honestly a hazard and should be looked at more as a blade protector than a usable sheath.
 
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