To Christian Gun Owners: Why do you disagree with the Amish position?

[Doug.38PR]

1. There is no assurance that use of force would save my life or the life of my family if confronted by an attacker.
2. We could recall many accounts of unhoped for deliverances, whether by mediation, nature, or divine Providence, when Christians refused to use force when confronted by an attacker.
3. If the result is death at the hands of the attacker, so be it; death is not threatening to us as Christians. Hopefully the attacker will have at least had a glimpse of the love of Christ in our nonviolent response.
4. The Christian does not choose a nonviolent approach to conflict because of assurance it will always work; rather the Christian chooses this approach because of his/her commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord.

The above was quoted from another thread as an Amish response to violence from a bad guy.

This thread is primarily geared to devouted Christians who own firearms and believe in just warfare and defense of self, home, family and property.

What responses do you have to the above said comments?

I won't go into all the Biblical passages and evidences, we all know them. I will just say this, We are commanded to love honor and protect our family and loved ones and to not do so in the name of "showing love to the attacker" is backward. He who does not take care of his own family is worse than a non-believer.
Even many modern non-Amish effeminant Christians wince at carrying a gun claiming "if God wants me to die, then I am going to die." While that is true, you still have an obligation and a duty to care for yourself and those around you within the realm of Providence. That's almost like saying, "I shouldn't work to eat, because if God wants me to die, then I am going to die, the Lord will provide and let food fall on my plate." or "If I am in an car accident I shouldn't try to get medical attention because if God wants me to die then I am going to die." Bottom line, we have a responsibility to preserve life, including our own, just not at the cost of our souls. Putting your own life on the line in defense of your kith and kin shows more love and sacrifice than timidly submitting to a bullet in the head when the means to do something to stop it is available.
Your faith is NOT in the sword/gun, your faith is in God and He can deliever you gun or no gun. That doesn't mean that you throw away the gun. (that's not what Christ told Peter. "PUT away your sword" not "THROW away your sword." We don't live by weapons, but we use them as tools.
None of this is to say that the Amish are evil, bad or non-Christian. They are, without a doubt, very good and gentle people who have many fine qualities of agrarianism, non-materialism and strong ties of local community

PLEASE DON"T LET THIS DEGENERATE INTO AN ARGUMENT OVER WHETHER THERE IS A GOD OR WHY YOU HATE GOD OR CHRISTIANS. If you don't like Christians, then start your own thread or move on to the next thread. Lets keep this a civil discussion about the use of arms/guns within that faith.

 

[Tim Burke]

I don't believe God means for us to acquiesce to evil.

 

[M249MachineGun]

If the great Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't want me to have a gun and protect myself with it, he would not have, in his infinite wisdom, blessed me with a trigger finger.

/Not exactly Christian.
//Pastafarian!
///I guess it could be the same for your Christian God, too.

 

[Vitamin G]

Some might feel that you can spead the Good Word through your death, but you can't spead the Good Word in your death, and as for me, I would much rather prefer to spread the Good Word through my life, and in my life.

And if God wants me to die, yes, im going to die... But what if God does NOT want me to die, and through my inaction, go before he intended me to? To pretend that everyone dies when God wants them to, denies the idea of free will... bad guys have free will, too.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I am gonna have to agree with M249MACHINEGUN on this one if his noodly goodness did not want me to have firearms then why did he bestow them on me.

 

[hso]

Any post with religious context has usually degraded into something very ugly in the past.

As a very strong reminder to our members, please keep in mind that religious attacks are not acceptable on THR, whether they be made in fun or not. Let's be respectful of your colleagues here and not do anything that violates the rules. This may be the only warning that’s given.

 

[Deathrider1579]

I am what you would consider a fundamentalist Christian.

I disagree with the Amish position because of several reasons.

1. Although we were told to "turn the other cheek", I have never seen in the Bible where it says we have to just let anyone hurt us for no reason. (Although you could probably make a good argument about not killing them for stealing your property but you never know they might come and kill you because you saw them take what they took)
2. As a man it is my responsibility to defend my family, to "love them as Christ loved the Church" this means I will defend them with my very life if I have to.
3. Not all of the Old Testament was done away with when Christ came. I still think OT justice works and works well.


I have made my peace with violence and self defense. If some one presents an imminent threat I will deal with it as best I can. God gives grace even if I am wrong I believe and there for am forgiven of any sins I commit so I am not worried.

-DR

 

[Polishrifleman]

#1 True
#2 True and those Christens are now dancing with Christ
#3 True, my response is In being a Christian I know I can always ask for forgiveness if I truely and honestly want to be forgiven and my moral code says my actions are just then I should have no problem asking for forgiveness, that is something that we have to live with in our daily lives just like the Amish.
#4 See statement #3 and don't wait for the outcome.

When you say Just Warfare what are you regarding to? The reason for going to war or the conduct of the war? Hopefully you mean the reason for war.

 

[TJTay89]

Everyone has their own beliefs, and everyone’s beliefs should be respected, not just when the coincide with your own. I respect that the Amish would probably not defend themselves, thinking that whatever happens is Gods will. It would take very strong faith to be able to overcome your natural instinct for preservation and not defend yourself. That however, doesn't mean I agree with them.

 

[tcgeol]

Apart from the points you all have already made, Jesus told his disciples that if they didn't have a sword, they should buy one. I realize that there are some debates over the application of this passage, but that is what He said. Also, in one of the Pauline epistles, Christians are told to live peaceably with all men as much as we can. There is a definite inference that there will be times when we can't live peaceably with all men. Not because we don't want to do so, but because other men will not allow it.

 

[Sistema1927]

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. - I Timothy 5:8(ESV)

My responsibility for the safety of my family is just as important as my responsibility to feed, clothe, and house them. To those who expect that God is going to protect them from evil men, do they also expect that He is going to drop manna out of heaven each day, or do they work for their daily bread? If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. - I Thes 3:10b(ESV). Responsibility, a Biblical concept.

 

[UKTN]

I believe it is my duty as a Christian to do all I can to protect myself and my family in Luke 22 36 Christ said sell your cloak and buy a sword the best weapon at the time.

 

[Geronimo45]

Turn the other cheek = don't sweat the small stuff, from what I've read. Christians aren't supposed to run around getting upset over everything and throwing tantrums. If somebody borrows your tool set and doesn't bring it back, you don't have a license to kill.
We're not supposed to sit idly by while somebody's being abused, either.
When my time comes - a .45 won't stop a brain tumor, trauma plates won't protect against a heart attack. When the time allotted me has run out, I'm dead. I intend to die on schedule, not a minute early and not a minute late.

 

[M249MachineGun]

Any post with religious context has usually degraded into something very ugly in the past.

As a very strong reminder to our members, please keep in mind that religious attacks are not acceptable on THR, whether they be made in fun or not. Let's be respectful of your colleagues here and not do anything that violates the rules. This may be the only warning that’s given.

I am sorry if you found my beliefs offensive; The FSM would not want that. May peace be with you and your pasta bowl runneth over.

 

[carlrodd]

i have very strong feelings about how faith ties into using force. there are opposing forces in this world. evil is a very real, very tangible thing. in many ways it is a huge overarching force, and in other ways it can be seen in very specific circumstances. god only commands that we not try to judge other men's hearts. you do not need to judge the heart of a man to identify evil behaviour. when evil has so consumed a person that they are brought to violent criminal behaviour, if a christian just so happens to be caught in the middle, i see every justification FOR disrupting, preventing, eliminating that evil. i don't believe god intends for christians to sit idly by while people with black hearts do as they wish because no one feels obligated to, or has the courage to confront them.

 

[gunsmith]

Life is a gift from our Creator

That's why it is a sin to commit suicide.
Our Creator gave us our instincts for a reason too.
To not fight for your life is against instinct and a sin. (ymmv,I am praying for those Amish kids)
I was raised Catholic and am new to Christianity, I ccw to church
and see others doing it to

 

[bearmgc]

Their beliefs are THEIR business not mine. They are not imposing their religion on me. So all points arising from others regarding the Amish beliefs are mute.

 

[glummer]

The problem with non-violence & forgiveness is, where do you stop?
The Nickle Mines kids?
The Holocaust?
Nuclear war?
Is there NOTHING so wrong that using violence is justified to stop it?

The world is run by people willing to use weapons. There is no choice about that; never has been; never will be.
The only choice is WHO is using the weapons.

 

[Stauble]

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

why would you want too?

seriously though, the catechism says i can so i will

 

[Doug.38PR]

The reason for going to war or the conduct of the war?

both. I believe that God permits defensive wars (and sometimes the best defense is a good offense) and we are held accountable to how we conduct ourselves in that war (treatment of civilians, prisoners, etc.) It is to be a war among armies, not a war on the culture and people of that country (a concept that we have gradually lost over the past 150 years).

I am reminded is some of this discussion of Edmond Burke's (also a Christian gentleman) famous comment, "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I hope this conversation can stay civil even though religion is involved.

I myself am a devout atheist. I have no belief what-so-ever in any godly beings, ghosts, spooks, spirits, monsters, etc. (except for bigfoot...he is of course real)

I can agree that the christian belief would lend one towards non-violence even in defense of one's own life. After all, if the greatest gift you can receive is the after-life why fear going into it.

However, I would think that even though one would not kill to protect their own life I would not say that they should not resort to violence in the protection of others. Such as family friends, and other innocents. Religion is a small comfort after the loss of a loved one and I would think that protecting the innocent would come before personal gratification or values.

 

[Candiru]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

The theological reasoning behind this stance is brilliant. To paraphrase the late John Paul II in his encyclical Evangalium Vitae, the death of an aggressor due to the use of lethal force on the part of the defender is not only pardonable, it's not even a sin for the defender. This is because sin requires free will; when someone attacks another with lethal force, the defender has two options, neither of which constitute ideal behavior: commit an assault upon the attacker that may cause his demise, or permit aggression and injury against the innocent. The former option is the lesser evil, but since the defender has been deprived of the free choice of choosing an Option C (neither attack another nor permit an innocent to be harmed), it cannot be a sin.

All that being said, I have deep respect for the beliefs of the Amish and the degree to which they live wholesome Christian lives.

 

[Stiletto Null]

1. It's supposed to be "thou shalt not murder", not "thou shalt not kill".
2. Luke 22:36, I think.

"Turn the other cheek" refers to a slap in the face. The Torah (aka Old Testament) actually states outright that it is an insult to God to allow yourself to die without putting up some kind of fight.

I'm an atheist, by the way. But I like to keep track of this sort of stuff.

 

[Dirk Pitt]

Sorry, I don't really care what your beliefs or faith is.

Violence can only be met one way, --- with overwhelming retalatory violence. If you don't all you wind up is ......... dead.

BTW I am Catholic.

 

[Stiletto Null]

"Be polite. Be courteous. Be ready to kill everybody in the room."