To those who dis the 9mm

Status
Not open for further replies.
doubs43 said:
The 1911 WAS (and IS) the better mousetrap. Buying the M9 in 9mm was a POLITICAL decision and NOT based on which cartridge was a more effective combat round.

As much as I prefer the 1911 to the M9, I don't think that your statement is 100% true. The M9 is better considering all important factors such as ammunition compatability with NATO allies, magazine capacity, and ease of use to name a few.
 
What I find funny is people knock the 92 as being used by the military because they are "cheap", yet they seem to hold colt m4s and the like as being the industry standard, and if your ar15 doesn't match the specs of a colt its no good.
 
Somewhere, in some dusty warehouse on US goverment property you will find 500 trillion rounds of 9mm Para stock piled.

It isn't the gun critics or soldiers that choose our militarys weapons, it's the number crunchers!
 
MT GUNNY said:
Hammer Down, Safety off. That way you can have your First Shot be a Double action one.

The Only Problem with 9MM that I have, is the Fact that I don't have one Yet!!

I've not heard good things about firing the first shot DA. One guy shot with us with a 90-two, and the rules forced him to have to fire it that way. He would have preferred a consistent trigger pull. Later I spoke to a guy who quoted some gun-fu teacher as saying ~'he'd almost rather fire the first shot in the air just to get to the good trigger pull'.

Probably doesn't seem like a big deal, except the first shot could be really important, if you need to shoot a pistol.
 
As much as I agree that the 9mm is plenty of punch for me (using real ammo of course... not that Hague-compliant NATO ball)... the fact that the government is making such a contract is of no relevance to support that.

The military makes deals based on many things... cost is probably at the top of the list. Performance is farther down the list.
 
Just One Shot--.......you seem to believe that the 9mm is a good round. (me thinks so too) That is nice, but your spelling of "diss" could use some help:neener::D
 
As far as the Checkmate mags go, I bought 5 at a bargain price since nobody wants them. They have worked perfectly for me.
I have no problem whatsoever using the DA pull for the first shot.
 
I have to agree with the "Go 9!" crowd here. Now, I also like the "big bang" single-action gun myself, but given a choice of the first design in .45 or the improved design in 9mm (the Hi-Power), I'd take the second.

If you really look at the situation, it will be evident the advances that the 9mm round and weapons bring forward on the modern battlefield. The times they are a changing. The .45 with 7 rounds, easily and rapidly reloadable, made for an upgrade over the .38 which was in prior service. It was suitably modern and effective for the time. What many folks seem to be getting sidetracked on is "stopping power", ie disecting the merits of one well placed shot. That's great but that isn't a description of modern warfare.

History has shown that the advancements that have led to decisive battlefield victory have included mobility and firepower. In WWI, the machine gun revolutionized warfare as did the train and the truck. It was not pretty. It was not about "disecting the merits of one well placed shot". It was about speed and superior firepower. Then in WWII, the aircraft and even faster, lighter machine guns and trucks created widespread panic and devastation throughout Europe at a pace that no one had imagined possible via the Blitzkrieg. Horrifically, both the most advanced automatic weapons and vehicles were German possessions.

We can then have a look at more modern wars such as Vietnam and see a transition from the awesomely powerful, yet brutally heavy to carry M14 Garrand to the M16 Colt. One reason was to be fortunate enough to be able to carry a much lighter, higher firepower weapon. Perhaps the most overlooked issue is the weight and bulk of the ammo that is required to support these weapons. If you can imagine how important it would be to have the most ammo at any one position in combat, you're begining to see the logic. Not that Vietnam was a victory, nor was it a real testiment to mobility, it did prove that a lighter weapon with greater firepower and the ability to carry more ammo was not a bad thing. I'll not argue that the AK47 was not very effective, only that its ammo was very heavy by comparison and had the war been on other than its own turf, it would have been more difficult to support.

So the sidearm really didn't change much as in both WWII and Vietnam, the objective became increasingly to increase distance and speed of attack to minimize casualties and to inflict the greatest on the enemy. Historians will note that this was not always to our advantage due to the equipment and logistics of it all but at least we progressed to carrying more suitable arms for the shots that were more decisive, the distance rounds. Then in the most modern conflicts, we have seen mobility and firepower become even more important as we have evolved into a predominately air supported army. The army that the air forces are supporting though has increasingly been subjected to urban combat. This makes the smaller, faster cycling, and greater capacity weapon the more desirable. It also makes the sidearm an actually used and important arm.

I believe the US military did perform effective and intelligent trials to reach the conclusion that the higher capacity weapon with lighter ammo was the best choice to meet its current challenges. It also allowed us to save some money per round and as a side benefit, that's fine with me. I'm most concerned with saving the lives of our soldiers.
-Bill
 
How do they carry the M9, cocked or is the first shot DA?

I'm pretty sure they carry condition 3- Hammer down, Saftey on, No round in the chamber. They draw and chamber around so their first shot is single action.
 
FYI to those who compare the 1985 military sidearm to the 1911 military sidearm and write about "better mousetraps"...

It's 2009 and there have been a few better mousetraps built since 1911 and since 1985.

WRT 9mm, well, the military chooses to use the Hague-compatible stuff (which really would be subject to interpretation, too -- there's nothing in the accord that says, "Must be FMJ copper over lead bullets" that I know of). So, it DOESN'T MATTER if HST or Cor-Bon or the new Hornady stuff has turned 9mm into a much better round, because the military WON'T BE USING THAT STUFF. They'll be using what any of us, and any American police department, would consider plinking ammo.

When I said the M9 is huge, I mean for a gun that shoots 16 rounds of plinking ammo. It's not the size of a Desert Eagle, obviously. But if all you're going to get is 16 rounds of plinking ammo, you needn't haul something the size of an M9 around Iraq.

24 years, better mousetraps.

DA/SA is no longer the standard for defensive pistols, either. The P38 was pretty innovative in the 1930s when it was adopted. I've got one and I think it still holds its own in many ways. But this isn't 1938.

I like the M9/92 as a shooter. I also like the Super Blackhawk, Mark II Target, Airweight J-frames, 1858 Remingtons and a number of other firearms that I don't think are appropriate as issue sidearms for the overtaxed military of the only remaining superpower.

I wouldn't want to be carrying one loaded with 9mm FMJ if my job involved stopping suicide attacks by crazed Jihadis -- the extra size and weight are additional downsides for people already loaded down with gear. And I think it's a disgrace that this continues to be the issue sidearm, given the realities of our current enemies and the current wars.
 
If they must stick with 9mm the glock 19 would be a perfect choice. It's not too big, or too small but still has the same capacity as the M9 without the extra weight.

If we instead equipped our military like we still had a soverign country they should go with the glock 21 SF.

I still can't believe we let other countries tell us how to equip our military. It still baffles me.
 
Hell, why not just issue the Walther P22?

It's cheaper than the M9 and it has even lower recoil. It's small and light.

Since we apparently treat the military sidearm like it's some sort of a joke, or like a ceremonial sword, then why make anyone carry around an M9?

I wonder who would have won WW II if the main criteria for choosing the US service rifle was that it had the perceived recoil of a .22!

It seems we're now involved in drawn-out low-intensity conflicts with a lot happening in urban areas. Sounds like, just maybe, the right pistol could actually have some tactical significance, like the Garand did in the '40s.
 
Last edited:
It's 2009 and there have been a few better mousetraps built since 1911 and since 1985.

I agree; the 1911A1 came along about 1926 as a standard issue sidearm. As a combat pistol, if it's a 9mm it ain't a better mousetrap no matter what's been "improved".

The whole purpose of a sidearm in combat is as a defensive weapon. I know the handgun will sometimes be used offensively but those times are the exceptions. In hardball configuration the .45ACP is better than the 9mm..... period. Why would anyone want to be armed with an inferior cartridge?

There has been a whole parade of supposedly "better mousetrap" 9mm pistols since 1902...... but they're STILL 9mm. The 1911 and the .45ACP have proven themselves over and over but still people insist that they're "out of date" or "old fashioned" or whatever. The combination is reliable, works when it has to work and is effective. It ain't broke and it doesn't need to be fixed.

Let me add that I own more than a few 9mm pistols dating from WW1 Lugers to a 1981 vintage commercial CZ-75 and a later P-1 update of the P-38. I enjoy shooting them but my personal protection pistol is a 1927 Argentine clone of the 1911A1. I believe in the .45ACP.
 
The 9mm FMJ is not a manstopper round, and that is what the troops are given. If they were given 125 gr 9mm +P HP, they would be just fine.
 
Why would anyone want to be armed with an inferior cartridge?

Because he is from Western Europe, is all I can think...:D

http://assistantvillageidiot.blogspot.com/2007/02/stehpinkeln.html

article_image2.php
 
The 1911 and the .45ACP have proven themselves over and over but still people insist that they're "out of date" or "old fashioned" or whatever. The combination is reliable, works when it has to work and is effective. It ain't broke and it doesn't need to be fixed.

Not saying the 1911 is BAD, though its magazine capacity is most certainly a relic of another era. However, there are other ways to lug .45 slugs at the enemy now, including 1911-inspired designs, and a few good modern striker pistols, that deserve a look also. I like the 1911, but I think the XD45 is a helluva good shooting tool.

What doesn't deserve a look is what we issue: a full-size DA/SA 9mm pistol loaded with FMJ. At the very least, it should have a capacity of 25 rounds, anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top