Trading in a .45 for a 10mm
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gunfan
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You must understand, and ultimately remember...
The .45 Auto is a wonderful cartridge. Its versatility, however, is limited by its "power band." Unfortunately, that's the way physics has arranged for it to remain.
Scott
The .45 Auto is a wonderful cartridge. Its versatility, however, is limited by its "power band." Unfortunately, that's the way physics has arranged for it to remain.
Scott
Pat,
I agree with you that the .45 will do a majority of the jobs most shooters are likely to ask of a standard format semiauto. (I carried an HK USP Compact .45 for a couple years and it's still one of my favorite pistols.) I also agree that the .45 is much, much more popular and therefore there are more platforms available and ammo is cheaper and easier to find.
I think what most 10mm supporters here are saying though is that the 10mm is a much more versatile cartridge. When pushed to it's true power potential it ranks with mid-range .41 Magnum loads, and yet can still be downloaded to .45 +P, standard .45 and .40 S&W loads. As for recoil, more power is going to translate into more recoil when all other variables are kept equal. If what you're looking for is a hot hunting or "woods" load then the power that's pushing that bullet harder and faster down the barrel is also going to be pushing harder and faster at you. If you don't need that much power and would prefer something that is similar in performance to a .45 or .40 S&W then you're going to also get a similar amount of recoil.
When it comes to ammo and gun availability you are correct about the .45 being much more popular and therefore much more common. The 10mm can be found (either new or used) in a lot of the same platforms as the .45, but there are definately some guns that are not currently available in 10mm such as the Sig 220, Beretta Cougar, Ruger P90, etc.
When it comes to ammo the "big three" (Winchester, Remington & Federal) all continue to load the 10mm, but these loads do not take advantage of the 10mm's power potential and use relatively antiquated bullet technology. These marketing decisions that are being made by the major gun and ammo manufacturers has created a niche market for the 10mm which companies like Dan Wesson, Tangfolio, Double Tap, Texas Ammo, Pro Load, etc. are now capitalizing on. I assure you though, the "big boys" are watching and if interest in guns and ammo for the 10mm continue and they see there is money to be made then they will not hesitate to introduce new offerings for the caliber.
I hope to keep this discussion objective and "even tempered." I do not agree with a lot of your assertations, but I understand where you're coming from and you definately have the right to share your opinions and experiences. Regardless of what you say though, I will continue to be an unrepentent 10mm fanatic!
I agree with you that the .45 will do a majority of the jobs most shooters are likely to ask of a standard format semiauto. (I carried an HK USP Compact .45 for a couple years and it's still one of my favorite pistols.) I also agree that the .45 is much, much more popular and therefore there are more platforms available and ammo is cheaper and easier to find.
I think what most 10mm supporters here are saying though is that the 10mm is a much more versatile cartridge. When pushed to it's true power potential it ranks with mid-range .41 Magnum loads, and yet can still be downloaded to .45 +P, standard .45 and .40 S&W loads. As for recoil, more power is going to translate into more recoil when all other variables are kept equal. If what you're looking for is a hot hunting or "woods" load then the power that's pushing that bullet harder and faster down the barrel is also going to be pushing harder and faster at you. If you don't need that much power and would prefer something that is similar in performance to a .45 or .40 S&W then you're going to also get a similar amount of recoil.
When it comes to ammo and gun availability you are correct about the .45 being much more popular and therefore much more common. The 10mm can be found (either new or used) in a lot of the same platforms as the .45, but there are definately some guns that are not currently available in 10mm such as the Sig 220, Beretta Cougar, Ruger P90, etc.
When it comes to ammo the "big three" (Winchester, Remington & Federal) all continue to load the 10mm, but these loads do not take advantage of the 10mm's power potential and use relatively antiquated bullet technology. These marketing decisions that are being made by the major gun and ammo manufacturers has created a niche market for the 10mm which companies like Dan Wesson, Tangfolio, Double Tap, Texas Ammo, Pro Load, etc. are now capitalizing on. I assure you though, the "big boys" are watching and if interest in guns and ammo for the 10mm continue and they see there is money to be made then they will not hesitate to introduce new offerings for the caliber.
I hope to keep this discussion objective and "even tempered." I do not agree with a lot of your assertations, but I understand where you're coming from and you definately have the right to share your opinions and experiences. Regardless of what you say though, I will continue to be an unrepentent 10mm fanatic!
spartacus2002
Member
How does .400 Cor-Bon compare to 10mm?
turbonatr
Member
Only using Cor-Bon's advertised velocities for the .400 and 10mm do they compare. For anyone else loading the 10mm to potential, the .400 doesn't come close.
From Cor-Bon's site...
400COR-BON 135gr JHP 1450fps
400COR-BON 150gr JHP 1350fps
400COR-BON 160gr FMJ 1200fps
400COR-BON 165gr JHP 1300fps
From Texas Ammo's site...
10mm 135 Grain JHP 1450
10mm 165 Grain JHP 1350
10mm 200 Grain JHP 1250
10mm 200 Grain FMJ-FP 1250
From DoubleTap's site...
10mm Gold Dot 155gr. 1475fps
10mm Gold Dot 165gr. 1400fps
10mm Gold Dot 180gr. 1300fps
10mm 135gr. Nosler JHP 1600fps
10mm 165gr. GSHP 1425fps
10mm 180gr. GSHP 1330fps
10mm 200gr. XTP/JHP 1250fps
10 mm 200gr. FMJ 1270fps
10mm 220gr. FP Cast 1125fps
From Cor-Bon's site...
400COR-BON 135gr JHP 1450fps
400COR-BON 150gr JHP 1350fps
400COR-BON 160gr FMJ 1200fps
400COR-BON 165gr JHP 1300fps
From Texas Ammo's site...
10mm 135 Grain JHP 1450
10mm 165 Grain JHP 1350
10mm 200 Grain JHP 1250
10mm 200 Grain FMJ-FP 1250
From DoubleTap's site...
10mm Gold Dot 155gr. 1475fps
10mm Gold Dot 165gr. 1400fps
10mm Gold Dot 180gr. 1300fps
10mm 135gr. Nosler JHP 1600fps
10mm 165gr. GSHP 1425fps
10mm 180gr. GSHP 1330fps
10mm 200gr. XTP/JHP 1250fps
10 mm 200gr. FMJ 1270fps
10mm 220gr. FP Cast 1125fps
Why are there so many people out ther with a velocity envy? .45 is good but 10mm is better. I shoot both. If you dont have a 10mm you will survive. It realy isnt a big deal. I just love my 10mm. I just think its to bad to see someone badmouth Doubletap. McNett is such a cool guy and he realy is one of us. I think he deserves our support. It cant hurt to have a few decent people out there that are willing to take a chance to give us what we want. Sigfan will always say what he does because he has no idea what he is talking about.
BTW I forgot who it was who posted the picture of that BrenTen but I would like to say SAWEEEEEET!
BTW I forgot who it was who posted the picture of that BrenTen but I would like to say SAWEEEEEET!
Sykokinesis
Member
The Glock is awsome. Yeah it's plastic, I get the tupperware jokes alot from Ruger p90 carrying fools but the G-20 is no joke at all.
I've shot many Glocks and the 10mm is like no other. It's very accurate, not as accurate as a 1911, but it's not as heavy either.
The reason the 10mm is not as accurate is because the rounds are packed with powder. They are kinda like .41 magnum. I don't know mm conversions without a chart.
I've shot many Glocks and the 10mm is like no other. It's very accurate, not as accurate as a 1911, but it's not as heavy either.
The reason the 10mm is not as accurate is because the rounds are packed with powder. They are kinda like .41 magnum. I don't know mm conversions without a chart.
The guys supporting 10mm saying it's like a mid powe 41 Magnum are comparing 10mm exotic cocktail rounds to garden variety factory in the 41 Magnum, in other words apples to oranges. Rest assured if both rounds are loaded to their potential with equivalent bullet weights and pressure the 41 Magnum will smoke the 10mm. And I am a Ten mm Colt Auto fan. Just want to inject a little truth into the discussion. 
BTW, I like both the 10mm and the 41 S&W Magnum, but they are niche cartridges that have not sold all that well. Somebody who wants more than a 357 Magnum moves straight to the 44 Magnum. The 41 has been intentionally castrated by the ammo companies as it was the great hope of Elmer Keith to get a police revolver with 210 gr bullet at 900 fps, iirc. The 41 was originally available in two loadings, the one I mentioned and a barn burner 210 jacketed. A few of the hard core loadings and police complained about the recoil. So because of weak sales they combined the prissy and the jacketed and came up with a compromise load that didn't kick as much. You can look it up.
Of course, the 10mm has a similar story. People are agog when they read the ballistics charts and see 600 fpe but once they light off a 200 grain at 1200 fps they are through shooting for the day. Hence the wimpy factory ammo except for the designer boutique brands. Look up the FBI, there's plenty of stuff about their adoption and the birth of the 40 S&W. Cheers!
Of course, the 10mm has a similar story. People are agog when they read the ballistics charts and see 600 fpe but once they light off a 200 grain at 1200 fps they are through shooting for the day. Hence the wimpy factory ammo except for the designer boutique brands. Look up the FBI, there's plenty of stuff about their adoption and the birth of the 40 S&W. Cheers!
Sykokinesis
Member
When I compared the 10mm to the .41mag I meant the size of the bullet. Like I said in my post I don't know conversions to metric without a chart. 10mm equals around the same size as a .41 round. Probably closer to a .38
10mm I guess is like 13/32 of an inch...
10mm
30 points
2.5 picas
13/32inch.
10mm I guess is like 13/32 of an inch...
10mm
30 points
2.5 picas
13/32inch.
Why are we comparing a revolver and an autoloader? We all know that there are more powerful magnum revolvers out there. You wouldnt compare an AR-15 and a hunting rifle would you? Obviously they have different purposes. The 10 mm has about the best velocity I know of for an autoloader. I'm not sure what the big Desert Eagles are capable of though.
Because somebody started saying a 10mm is like a mid power 41 Magnum. Don't know any 41 Magnum autoloaders right off hand.
I'm just saying compare boutique rounds with boutique rounds or anemic Big 3 factory loads with anemic Big 3 factory loads.
Sean Smith
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It is perfectly accurate to say something like: "The hottest 10mm Auto loads match intermediate .41 Magnum loads from equal barrel lengths." Or, "The hottest 10mm ammo is on par with the hottest .357 Magnum ammo from equal barrel lengths, but with the advantage of a bigger bullet to punch a wider hole."
.400 Cor-Bon is competitive with most (but not all) 10mm factory ballistics with bullets <180gr. .45 Super is in the same ballpark as 10mm out of equal barrel lengths. .460 Rowland approaches .44 Magnum ballistics, but doesn't have the variety of sutible hunting bullets in heavier weights like .44 Magnum does. All of the above make 10mm look like 9x19 in terms of ammo availability.
Perfectly adequate but hyperbolic, if not to say intellectually dishonest. You aren't in the ad business by any chance?
If you take a fully stoked 10mm and a fully stoked 41 Magnum the ten mm will be completely and totally outclassed. That's the long and short of it. What I said is the Big 3 ammo firms make neither, so you have to go the a ammo boutique like Cor-bon or whomever to get the ultra stoked ammo for either. Saying Cor-bon 10mm is as good as Win white box 41 Magnum is an invalid comparison and you know it.
I am also a fan of the Ten mm Colt Auto but it ain't the be all and end all of every handgunner's wet dream. Neither is the 41 Magnum, although to hear some guys' gushingly laudatory comments, it is the next thing to the Second Coming. Different strokes for different folks.
If you take a fully stoked 10mm and a fully stoked 41 Magnum the ten mm will be completely and totally outclassed. That's the long and short of it. What I said is the Big 3 ammo firms make neither, so you have to go the a ammo boutique like Cor-bon or whomever to get the ultra stoked ammo for either. Saying Cor-bon 10mm is as good as Win white box 41 Magnum is an invalid comparison and you know it.
I am also a fan of the Ten mm Colt Auto but it ain't the be all and end all of every handgunner's wet dream. Neither is the 41 Magnum, although to hear some guys' gushingly laudatory comments, it is the next thing to the Second Coming. Different strokes for different folks.
ny32182
Member
Saying that hot 10mm is on par with mid range 41 magnum isn't "dishonest", nor is it an "invalid comparison". Its a fact. If someone reads that statement and assumes that the writer is trying to imply that the 10mm and 41mag are on par as far as maximum power potential goes, then the reader needs to work on reading comprehension, IMO... No such implication is made.
No, but it is inaccurate (or we end up in all sort of hair-splitting as to what is a "mid-range" load). Generally speaking, .41 Magnum loads will outclass the the 10mm loads except those downloaded to ".41 Special" specs. The revolver load the 10mm is closest to in terms of energy is the .357 Magnum (not the .41 Magnum), and even with the .357 Magnum, the hottest revolver loads are slightly (very slighter) hotter than the 10mm. The best you can about the 10mm is that it gives you .357 Magnum performance (and about an extra .037" in diameter) in a bottom-feeder.
"***but once they light off a 200 grain at 1200 fps they are through shooting for the day."
Not any people I know - ones who've actually fired a 10mm pistol. They usually want to shoot it more, not less. And typically their first question after shooting it is: "Where can I get one of these?"
Why assign "wimp" status to a whole class of shooters? It must be that all that hypnotic myth-making from the gunrags of the 1980s still hasn't worn off after 20 years of recycling.
Also, why is it that people who have no hesitation shooting .41 & .44 magnum revolvers suddenly get the sweats and start quivering when handed a 10mm autoloader?
Must be another myth ....
Not any people I know - ones who've actually fired a 10mm pistol. They usually want to shoot it more, not less. And typically their first question after shooting it is: "Where can I get one of these?"Why assign "wimp" status to a whole class of shooters? It must be that all that hypnotic myth-making from the gunrags of the 1980s still hasn't worn off after 20 years of recycling.
Also, why is it that people who have no hesitation shooting .41 & .44 magnum revolvers suddenly get the sweats and start quivering when handed a 10mm autoloader?
Must be another myth ....Sean Smith
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This is extremely silly. And your post is the one engaging in hair-splitting about what "mid-range" means. I mean, really, who cares? Nobody is claiming that 10mm matches .41 Magnum at the top end, so why do you constantly get your t-back panties in a bunch whenever 10mm comes up?
If we go by .38 and .44 Special, a .41 Special would be maybe 400 ft-lbs at the muzzle. The popular .41 Magnum Silvertip is about 650. Maxed-out .41 Magnum is about 900. The hottest 10mm is in the high 700s from a 4.6" barrel and over 800 from a 6" barrel. Again, since nobody claimed that 10mm matched the .41 Magnum top end, what is the basis for your grousing? Autoloader envy?
powderific
Member
Didn't Triton make some crazy 45 ammo that was quite a bit more powerful than even 45 super but still fit in a regular 45? I think it was 45smc or something like that. I remember because they sent me a box of it for free back when TFL was up. I can't seem to get onto Triton's site right now, does anyone know how it compared to a good 10mm load?
Hey, Sean, why are you getting your knickers in knot. Sure, the upper end 10mm and lower end .41 Magnums (".41 Specials") are close, but that is where it stops. The .41 Magnum is in whole another league for the most part.
BTW, the "maxed-out .41 Magnum" is a whole lot closer to 1100 fpe (usually around 1070 fpe) than 900 fpe--who are you trying to fool?
In energy terms, the 10mm remains solely in the .357 Magnum league (and even there, it comes in just a tad lighter).
Like I said, the best thing about a 10mm is that it gives you .357 Magnum power in a bottom feeder. Of course, you do have chase brass . . .
The 10 is fine, and I like it. For my money, it (along with the .357 Magnum) is probably one of the most verstile cartridges available.
BTW, the "maxed-out .41 Magnum" is a whole lot closer to 1100 fpe (usually around 1070 fpe) than 900 fpe--who are you trying to fool?
In energy terms, the 10mm remains solely in the .357 Magnum league (and even there, it comes in just a tad lighter).
Like I said, the best thing about a 10mm is that it gives you .357 Magnum power in a bottom feeder. Of course, you do have chase brass . . .
The 10 is fine, and I like it. For my money, it (along with the .357 Magnum) is probably one of the most verstile cartridges available.
I like the .357 magnum quite a bit. But typical .357 mag loads only retain parity with the 10mm AUTO when fired from a long barrelled revolver (5"+), which, except for bullseyes or handgun hunting, is not the barrel length usually seen in CCW or home defense use.
Factoring-in for barrel length, which in common 10mm pistols runs between 4.25" - 5", the .357 magnum simply can't keep up. But that doesn't mean I'm throwing away my 4" models 13 or 66.
Most medium-hot to hot 10mm loads, when compared against .41 mag energy numbers (fpe), show parity with .41 mag loads up to the 600fpe- mid-700fpe range. (Again, you have to factor-in for barrel length in these revolver-vs-autoloader comparisons).
Listings for some factory .41 mag loads (no barrel length given) show a 170gn JHP @ 1420fps/761fpe, a 175gn JHP @ 1250fps/607fpe, and a 210gn JHP @ 1300fps/788fpe.
While admittedly those aren't top-end .41 mag loads, and certainly aren't as hot as an experienced reloader could produce, a number of 10mm factory loads are available which generate 700+ fpe from a 4.6" barrel and up to 780fpe from a 5" barrel.
Factoring-in for barrel length, which in common 10mm pistols runs between 4.25" - 5", the .357 magnum simply can't keep up. But that doesn't mean I'm throwing away my 4" models 13 or 66.
Most medium-hot to hot 10mm loads, when compared against .41 mag energy numbers (fpe), show parity with .41 mag loads up to the 600fpe- mid-700fpe range. (Again, you have to factor-in for barrel length in these revolver-vs-autoloader comparisons).
Listings for some factory .41 mag loads (no barrel length given) show a 170gn JHP @ 1420fps/761fpe, a 175gn JHP @ 1250fps/607fpe, and a 210gn JHP @ 1300fps/788fpe.
While admittedly those aren't top-end .41 mag loads, and certainly aren't as hot as an experienced reloader could produce, a number of 10mm factory loads are available which generate 700+ fpe from a 4.6" barrel and up to 780fpe from a 5" barrel.
nvrquit
Member
Tomato, Tomatoe...
It basically comes down to personal choice.
Though, while I might have to chase my brass, should I want it, a few spare mags(2 or 3) are considerably easier to conceal or transport than the number of full moon or speed-loaders required to provide the equal number of rounds desired if a roundie is being carried. Then again, if required, isn't it only supposed to take just one .
Siggy Baby & BigG
In a word, analogous. 10mm hot to .41 Mag mid; analogous, not equal. Grab the Webster or Random House.
On the recoil issue, all other variable factors on a given platform being the same(read equal), velocity and mass control the recoil equation. It is not "caliber specific". Sorry I didn't make it more plainly stated, but the .45 Super and 460 Rowland are both on par(roughly equal) or exceed(greater than) the 10mm in that area, dependent upon the loading being used.
Perceived recoil is a bit more individual, to both the platform(rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc.) and the shooter involved. As always, YRMV .
It basically comes down to personal choice.
Though, while I might have to chase my brass, should I want it, a few spare mags(2 or 3) are considerably easier to conceal or transport than the number of full moon or speed-loaders required to provide the equal number of rounds desired if a roundie is being carried. Then again, if required, isn't it only supposed to take just one
.Siggy Baby & BigG
In a word, analogous. 10mm hot to .41 Mag mid; analogous, not equal. Grab the Webster or Random House.
On the recoil issue, all other variable factors on a given platform being the same(read equal), velocity and mass control the recoil equation. It is not "caliber specific". Sorry I didn't make it more plainly stated, but the .45 Super and 460 Rowland are both on par(roughly equal) or exceed(greater than) the 10mm in that area, dependent upon the loading being used.
Perceived recoil is a bit more individual, to both the platform(rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc.) and the shooter involved. As always, YRMV
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