Training with airsoft

[DRMMR02]

I just thought of this, so forgive me if this is already something people do. But does anyone here train for encounters using airsoft weapons? Reading that thread about "what would you do if got mugged by a man with a cocked revolved who was ready to shoot" got me thinking. That kind of situation, and other types of muggings, home invasions, etc would be good to actually simulate with airsoft guns. I know a lot of people go to the range and shoot sitting down, wearing different clothes, and other types of variations in order to more accurately simulate how you would have to fire in a real encounter with a BG. But what about taking it a step further? Get a few airsoft guns and simulate stuff with your wife or another person. Have one of you come in through the front door, or even a window and start making noise while the other is in the bedroom. Get better at moving through your house without making noise, find good places to shoot from with cover, etc. And also take turns with muggings. See if you can draw and maneuver to fire without getting hit yourself. It seems like with the amount of accurate-to-real-weapons airsoft guns that are out there, it would be pretty useful to actually simulate common BG encounters instead of just working on your aim at the range. SWAT teams and the military train at shoot-houses and combat towns with their trainers acting as bad guys. Would it be good for civilians to do as well?

Thoughts?

 

[Cromlech]

I'd rather not have an airsoft gun pointed/fired at my face, 300fps is bad enough. *stinging*

 

[DRMMR02]

300? I think(I may be wrong) that is more CO2 bb/pellet gun power. I mean the spring powered ones. I have been hit with those more time than I can count and it didn't hurt for more than a few seconds.

 

[Cromlech]

I have a gas (NOT CO2) BB gun, that is between 300-320fps.

Here in the U.K there are a large number of electric airsoft rifles that fire at 320fps (the limit for commercial airsoft skirmishes).

 

[Solsys]

Personnaly I think Airsoft weapons are giving BAD REFLEXES to the users.

One shot of a real weapon can change your life (and that of your family / your town) permanently. You need to have a good situational training before engaging any target.

I don't think this "load saved game" attitude is doing any good, it gives you the idea that any shot is somewhat reversible in its consequences. It's not.

If you know you're not going to be killed, or bleed to death, if you're being hit, you WILL take stupid risks. You WILL end up playing Cowboys & Indians (or Counterstrike for that matter).

It pays more to go to a dedicated range where you can train your shooting with your actual weapon. I can shoot around a corner with an airsoft... not with a real gun (maybe you can, I don't). The handling of the weapon isn't the same either. Most airsofters I know are scared of real weapons anyway.

It seems many airsofters are doing indoors "tactics", well it's the worst situation I can think of tactically (but I'm not an expert), it's more of a nightmare than a game. I don't think I want to be "trained" at that, and let other people in because I believe to have an edge in that kind of fighting.

I'm not saying that real shooters will become stupid if they train with airsoft, I just say it will give you bad reflexes. As for myself I am extremely cautious not to point a weapon (even unloaded) at anyone, just to create the appropriate reflex.

Pointing a weapon towards anyone is something that should be very earnest, and it should never cease to be. This is what must be trained.

 

[TXGunGeek]

SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY

Find yourself a reputable force on force instructor and get some training. You need to have the proper safety equipment and prcedures in place before doing any force on force role playing.
Done properly this is an excelent way to train. This will give you the experience of being in a lethal encounter without actually having to be close to dying. What it does is give you the chance to be in various situations and have to make the decisions under pressure and find out if that decision was right in a traininng setting instead of when it happens on the street. That along with the danger of someone getting shot for real is the reason you need to find an experienced instructor and school. To keep thing from devolving into a game and to keep the scenario on track as well as to keep things safe.
Civilian CCW and law enforcement use various role playing exercises with either simunitions or airsoft for training and done right it is a great addition to square range training.

That said, stay away from "airsoft games" that is game playing and is not real world training. Look for a self defense school that does force on force training and learn to do airsoft tactical training right.

 

[DRMMR02]

Personnaly I think Airsoft weapons are giving BAD REFLEXES to the users.

One shot of a real weapon can change your life (and that of your family / your town) permanently. You need to have a good situational training before engaging any target.

I don't think this "load saved game" attitude is doing any good, it gives you the idea that any shot is somewhat reversible in its consequences. It's not.

If you know you're not going to be killed, or bleed to death, if you're being hit, you WILL take stupid risks. You WILL end up playing Cowboys & Indians (or Counterstrike for that matter).

It pays more to go to a dedicated range where you can train your shooting with your actual weapon. I can shoot around a corner with an airsoft... not with a real gun (maybe you can, I don't). The handling of the weapon isn't the same either. Most airsofters I know are scared of real weapons anyway.

It seems many airsofters are doing indoors "tactics", well it's the worst situation I can think of tactically (but I'm not an expert), it's more of a nightmare than a game. I don't think I want to be "trained" at that, and let other people in because I believe to have an edge in that kind of fighting.

I'm not saying that real shooters will become stupid if they train with airsoft, I just say it will give you bad reflexes. As for myself I am extremely cautious not to point a weapon (even unloaded) at anyone, just to create the appropriate reflex.

Pointing a weapon towards anyone is something that should be very earnest, and it should never cease to be. This is what must be trained.

Well I wasn't talking about play 'airsoft games" teenager style. I mean serious cover and maneuvering through your house or in a mugging situation. Of course get real training from pros, but you can always use more practice. Why not go over the stuff you learned in class at home in the real enviroment you would face the BGs in, just with weapons that will give you a might welt instead of death. A classroom or range is always going to be more sterile. At home you could even turn off all the ligths, or even set you alarm for 3am and do the simulation in your pajamas while your still trying to get your bearings.

And make sure to use eye protection.

 

[Wesker]

Eeh, no. Would you practice your driving skills in golf carts? Didn't think so. So logically practicing with airsoft guns aren't going to help you any.

 

[DRMMR02]

You also don't practice driving at the arcade. And as much as professional training is worth, and it is worth LOTS, training in a well lit room that is nothing like your house when you have been awake in the daytime for hours is not the same as doing it at home, at night, when you just woke up. I really think a combination of classroom time and home simulation would be a smart way to go.

 

[Coronach]

Eeh, no. Would you practice your driving skills in golf carts? Didn't think so. So logically practicing with airsoft guns aren't going to help you any.

Of course, you also cannot actually shoot a live opponent in a force on force scenario with a real gun, so by that logic live fire training at targets that don't fight back won't help you any, either.

The truth of the matter is that airsoft training, like live-fire training and dry-fire training, can be done right or it can be done wrong. Doing it wrong will mean that, in the best case scenario, it is of little benefit. In the worst case scenario it will teach bad habits that will get you or someone on your "side" killed.

Done properly, however, it can be a very valuable tool. There are a lot of police departments and training facilities that incorporate force on force training in their curricula. Simunitions is the premier way of doing this (actual guns are used, with special ammunition and spring modifications), but it is potentially dangerous (high FPS, potential for screw-ups with ammo/weapons) and is VERY expensive. Quality airsoft training with realistic replica weapons (they exist) would seem to be a viable alternative.

Again, no one is saying it is perfect, nor that it is a replacement for actually shooting your weapon. It's just another piece of the puzzle. You can do things with Airsoft training that you absolutely cannot do with live fire (like shoot someone and be shot yourself).

Mike

 

[normbal]

This has GOT to be one of those things that are going to be argued over in excrutiating expert detail especially by those who know very little about a lot, and undoubtedly someone will blast me for it, so to them I say #%*!! you and the horse you rode in on and here's MY two cents on the subject:

I train upwards to 50 people a year as an NRA-certified instructor in pistol/personal protection, many of them women (45 this past year).

For ANYone who has never shot a pistol, or is having trouble shooting a pistol, one of the BEST ways I have found to teach the ergonomics of shooting (hand-eye coordination and operation of the gun's controls, magazine changes, etc) is with airsoft guns; I own several that use "freon," Tokyo Marui brand.

I used to just switch over to a .22 revolver or semi-auto when I noticed new shooters flinching or jerking the gun down early against recoil but found over time that there are still many people who develop flinch and have an aversion response to ANY loud sound. Ball and Dummy works to an extent, but I find that Airsoft pistols help immensely in training to systematically desensitize future shooters. They don't weigh much, don't recoil or go bang, and you get 25 rounds per magazine. By the end of the day I often have them shooting .357 magnums. Really.

Here's where it gets REALLY interesting and counters the BS a lot of folks here are posting:

There are a number of shooters matches here in the US every year like the Bianchi cup, someone or other's steel challenge, none of which I follow but I see on the shooting programs on the outdoor channel from time to time.

For the past two or three years there's been this little japanese dude whose name I can't pronounce much less remember who has WON these contests while shooting against guys like Rob Leatham, Jerry Miculek, Todd Jarrett, Doug Koenig and other lightweights

What's interesting about this is in his home country he practices all year round with airsoft (Tokyo Marui brand IIRC) and leaves maybe once or twice to places like Guam or Phillipines where he can shoot real guns.

Most competitors in these matches shoot upwards to 1,000 rounds a week (really) to prepare.

His form is terrible, both elbows bent, but his accuracy and time leads him to wins year after year.

Airsoft guns aren't toys, but serious training tools for those who know how to use them.

-Norm
Family Medicine, Firearms Counseling
socialist occupied Maryland

 

[Geno]

Best Practice & Alternate Practice

The best method for practice is live-fire, in a controlled environment. But, what does one do when he or she lives 2 hours, or more, from the place where they usually practice?

Second best is to use an alternate, less dangerous means, i.e. C02 BB pistol, or C02 air soft. Specifically, the benefit is to become smooth in the process of shoot while you scoot (shooting on the move). Less dangerous do not mean no protection for eyes, and I would add if using C02 pistol, add a mouth guard in case a round bounces back and takes you in the teeth.

I do exactly this, because it is what I was taught to do in my first tactical shooting course about 7 or 8 years ago. In fact, we were told to set up a course in our home and to practice there as a means of being prepared to defend the home front. For fact, one with common sense is not going to pull out their 45 or 9mm to practice such tactics in their own home. Only the most-wealthy people can afford to build a replica of their home in which to practice, but common sense tells me that they don’t. Point well-made, I believe.

In the most recent Advanced Tactical course that I completed, there were about 20 students. Most walked the shooting range (course) and nearly all stopped moving to fire. Big mistake!!! Only one student went through entire shooting properly, hit all targets center-of-mass. That one student was the one who for the past 7 or 8 years has practiced these same exercises with C02 bb pistol and C02 air soft pistol in his basement, and other parts of the home.

I do not use the spring powered air soft pistols, because they have to be actuated each firing. That removes the fluid realism. Also, find an Airsoft pistol on which the slide moves (just like a real one). Now, is this set up the same as using your center-fire pistol? Of course not, nor is it adequate for 100% of your practice time. But, when faced with driving 2 hours to get to the family farm to practice, it's a great alternative for off-weeks. It's cheap; it's fun and when done properly it works.

My 2 cents.

Doc2005

 

[BullfrogKen]

Its hard to add to what Mike (Conorach) said.

Solsys and Wesker, I can't disagree with you more. I don't know what kind of exposure you have to training and airsoft, but those insights tell me you haven't seem them used to their potential. Let the boys play video games, paintball, and airsoft tag. We can, and do, use them to train.


Most people cannot obtain simunitions. Airsoft is a very viable alternative.


If you're not incorporating some kind of force on force training into your regimine, you don't know what you're missing.


I live 3 miles from my range. We still use airsoft there in Force on Force at study group, and red gun training as well. I'm not concerned about clearing my house. I train for the personal interactions. You can't do that with live weapons.

 

[Solsys]

Its true I thought more about "self-instruction" when I wrote my post.

Any training made with an instructor is of course the right thing to do. (and this is the sense of the last sentence in my last post, but agreed, it wasn't very clear)

What I had in mind was that neophyptes, who often never fired a real weapon in their lives, actually think that whatever they do with airsoft gives them a tactical training. DRMMR02 understood it correctly, I think.

In France, very few people actually go to real weapons training (which is quite seldom in Europe, except for professionals). Among the few non-licensed shooters who could own a weapon until this year (for defense purposes : bankers, jewelers, known personalities etc.), many (between 30 % and 50%, I don't recall the exact figure) haven't had any practice in using them.

In France the gunsmiths only keep afloat financially by selling non-lethal defense systems - and airsoft. (gun restrictive laws directly destroy the distribution system...)
A lot of people buy them (you should see them at the gunsmith store...), believing they are going to aquire sufficient shooting knowledge with it.
First, of course, in training without an instructor they are going to take a lot of bad habits, and will not correct some of their mistakes. But due to the nature of airsoft, they may get some more bad reflexes.

A lot of self-defense situations ended badly because the armed persons couldn't cope with the stress of life or death issues (and also information deficit, since "bump in the night" can be anything). It's difficult enough for the trained, but when all you did was plinking at your friends (fast shooting), you may fire too soon or wait too long (because this time it's real). You CAN'T possibly gain psychological experience from self-practice, you HAVE to get it from a professional trainer.

So to put it short :
Airsoft as a part of professional training : YES
Airsoft for the amateurish self-training guy : NO

I hope I made my point clearer this time (I realise my english isn't that good either).

 

[TXGunGeek]

+'s and -'s of airsoft and FoF training

I'm glad to see more sensible heads prevail here. A few notes to add to the discussion on both sides of the coin;

FoF training with Airsoft is a great way to train for the real world in addition to other training. One thing to keep in mind that is VERY important, DO NOT trainin yourself into the position that every scenario is a shooting scenario. One thing that role playing allows is for the action to branch into several possible outcomes. Often time not shooting and using other less or non leathal alternatives is the correct answer. If the bad guy is just inside your front door and holding your TV with both hands, he can't be shooting you now can he?

Simunitions are only available to LEO. The Simunitions folks know how dangerous it is and they do not allow non LEO traininers to get certified and only trainers who have been through their course can buy their products. Some of the products are even treated as title 2 firearms (NFA). At one time (well before 9/11) they allowed a few non LEO trainers in who had stellar reputations to go through the instructor courses. I have the good fortune to have been associated with one of those since '96 and have become "designated bad guy" for the force on force training classes. We have since converted over to almost exclusively AirSoft for FoF classes for a whole variety of reasons. Safety, Cost, Safety, availability, Safety and ease of use. As DBG I get shot ALOT and have a vested interest in making sure no live weapons or ammo make it into the scenario. This is easier to do when AirSoft is involved. Also, with the availability of very realistic and high quality guns we are able to have an assortment that covers pretty much anything a student might show up for a class with.

Another plus for airsoft is students can get their own and practice at home in bad weather. My wife and I have a wardrobe box with the front folded down in our front bedroom. We put a paper target on the front of it and can shoot down the hall for practice. I have also modified ours since a number of factory parts actually ft the higher quality guns. Specifically I have put a seriously extended trigger in my SV Infinity AirSoft gun and a short flat trigger in my wifes Caspian. This makes the guns handle exactly like our real steel and can be used with most of our holsters. One side not is that by and large, the airsoft guns are just ever so slightly fatter than real steel so Kydex holsters often stick.

Now to downsides, Our little Japanese friend (I think his name is Nagata) DQ'd this year and last at the steel challenge for ND's. Specifically he put a round into the dirt about a yard from his foot on the SAME STAGE as last year. Basically he got used to drawing the gun and started pulling the trigger almost as soon as it cleared leather. His real steel trigger broke a bit sooner than his airsoft one and he DQ'd. Granted up to that point, he was pretty much kicking everybodys butt.

For tactical training at home, get good safety gear as well as quality guns. You need to pay attention when you go to class. Tell the instructor your intentions to run scenarios on your own. They can get more into the safety gear that your really must have for scenarios. Also, be forewarned that airsoft pellets can/will damage walls, light fixtures and other items in the house. You need to be aware of that before you start shooting up the place. The wife and I often practic eclearing the house from various places with our airsoft guns as well as practiceing trigger control and site alignment when we can't get to the range. We do this despite the fact that we have access to a very private training facility where we can practice shooting multiple types of targets around a wide variety of obsticles and situations.

Second for home tactical training is you need to make sure it doesn't devolve into games. Keep the goals in mind and have soomeone who is not participating in the scenario to run/ref the action and watch for potential safety hazards and keep things in check. We use an instructor in full safety gear with an orange highway safety vest on to make sure you know they are not part of the action. It will be eye opening to you once you start training FoF how much stuff you miss or don't pay attention to. Tunnel vision is a bad thing and can bite you in training as well as the real world.

Third, you need to pay attention to who your antagonist is. (You don't want to train yourself to shoot your spouse or kids or neighbor for that matter) I often shop out to local PD's needing bad guys for their training so that they don't use another officer as the DBG. They want a relatively unknown as the bad actor. I just try to drive very carefully through their towns as the officers know me as someone they often shoot at. (HAHAHAHAHA) Actually they are pretty cool about it and most of the time are very attentive to feedback on ther performance from the bad guys point of view.

Whew,
I think I need to stop as my wife wants to go eat and shop now.
Stay Safe,
TXGunGeek

 

[Kankujoe]

I think that it is a useful tool for a different aspect of training. Just like "paintball" shooting is also useful.

As we all know, defensive shooting practice is much different than standard target shooting. But target shooting also benefits defensive shooting.

The more tools in your toolbag the better.

 

[quiettype]

My problem with this is related to safety.Thou shalt not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.I think that rule is very important.

 

[GEM]

TXGunGeek - right on the money, friend. I really can't add more to conversation. I think that untrained folks alone can have fun but the use of FOF and Airsoft is much, much better with well trained folks, well supervised and well planned. The debrief is crucial with an expert's eye. Esp. - when you do something silly, have a hissy and then are corrected.

Airsoft, paintball and Code Eagle can hurt enough that in a well designed exercise, it is a sobering realization about a gun fight.

 

[strambo]

Thou shalt not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy

Yes, so take that to it's logical conclusion. What can an airsoft gun destroy? Unprotected eyes as far as humans are concerned and it can put dents in other stuff. Always point them in a safe direction relative to what it is. You would be violating that rule big time with a Barrett if you pointed it at safe backstops for pistols.

A human with eye protection is a safe backstop for an airsoft pistol, it just hurts a little. In order to do force on force training you have to point either a real (blanks or simunition modified) firearm or a replica of some sort (airsoft/paintball) at another person. If you aren't willing to do this, then you can't do force on force training. Provided the scenarios all meet the legal use of deadly force before you shoot, then you aren't making yourself more likely to shoot unecessarily or building trigger-happy habits. Some scenarios should be no-shoot ones as mentioned by others. If you build bad gun habits with airsoft guns, then it is 100% your fault for not handling it like a real firearm with the exception of what "safe" means in relation to it's power.

The key word in the posts above regarding this is "amateur". If you have done this on a professional level and/or are an instructor yourself airsoft FOF is great, inexpensive realistic training. If not, seek out the pros, go to a FOF class or 2, then you could do some on your own using the safety methods and the types of scenarios you learned.

 

[Coronach]

My problem with this is related to safety.Thou shalt not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.I think that rule is very important.

This means that you can never do FoF scenarios. Period. It also means that you're missing a very large piece of the training puzzle.

I'm completely in agreement with you when we're discussing real guns. That is why I tend not to like training scenarios where you simply unload a real gun and do stuff (for the record, my agency does not do this, but I've seen it done elsewhere). There is waaaaaay too much of a possibility of an "oops" in that.

However, we're talking about building good gun habits. And, if you're trying to develop a good defensive skill set, part of that involves knowing at an instinctual level how to point a gun at and respond to a live human.* The only safe way to do that is with a training gun.

Mike

*That sounds silly, but until you have done FoF, you cannot appreciate how different it is to aim and fire on a target that is 3-dimensional, clothed, moving, threatening, talking, etc. You can get nonhuman targets to do some of those things...but not all. And it's just not the same.

 

[TXGunGeek]

FoF realism and training

The whole reason for doing FoF training is to get more realistic in your activity. It is amazing how incoming fire (even airsoft) can screw up your shooting and thinking. Turning someones OODA loop into an OhDuh loop. The stresses of FoF training are a real thing and are good to experience if you are going to have a firearm around for personal protection. Bad guys do not stand square on and wait for yout to shoot them. (most of the time)

Safety rules, "Always keep the gun pointed in the safest direction" "keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot" "keep the gun unloaded unless it is being used" forget all that stuff about willing to destroy and such. If a bad guy is threatening grave bodily harm to you or your loved ones, 1) the gun is in defensive use so it should be loaded, 2) you better be ready to shoot so your finger should be on the trigger and 3) the safest direction for the gun to be pointed is at the bad guy.

Way side note, when someone who has had a near death experience whether from trauma or otherwise, they sometimes talk about seeing their life flash before their eyes. I know, I've seen it and it was in fact boring, then I started laughing afterwards because I was still alive. This is the brain going "Oh Poop, what have I experienced that might help in this situation?". Having been through FoF scenarios gives you the experience of maybe not that exact situation but similar enough to not poop and hopefully try to remain somewhat in control of your faculties. Or at least not turn into a pile of goo. The human brain can get the body to do some amazing things without you being aware of it. We had one student in particular that wrote up his experiences during FoF training and he said that he didn't even realize he had the gun in his hands until about the third shot. Despite the fact that he had hit me center mass with each shot he fired. Everything went automatic when the situation turned to poo, he then had a chance to catch his breath and figure out what to do next after he had shot me (the bad guy who was waving a gun around the "store") and dashed behind the cheetos.

As far as training, take at least a few FoF courses and better take a FoF helper/train the trainer class before trying to do this on your own. Onc eyou have taken a class, ask the instructor about coming back and helping out as an extra. Get the experience of how to setup and run scenarios so there is a lesson to be learned and things can be directed in a controlled manner. Do not let them deteriorate into games or "You need to learn what it is like to get shot" mentality. If you are the good guy in the scenario, even if you have been hit, keep going!!! Do not train yourself to give up the fight until you are physically unable to lift a finger.

 

[BullfrogKen]

quiettype said: My problem with this is related to safety.Thou shalt not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.I think that rule is very important.

Role playing exercises, by design, are run sterile. I see anyone using real guns not triple checked and isolated for use with sim rounds or live blades, I walk away. We need to have a way to do effective role playing exercises. Simunitions and Airsoft gives us that.

TXGunGeek said:

The whole reason for doing FoF training is to get more realistic in your activity. It is amazing how incoming fire (even airsoft) can screw up your shooting and thinking.

, I have to disagree with your rationale. The realism role playing introduces isn't the act of shooting and being shot at. Its the interaction between people, and at what point one reaches the decision someone has done something that makes it necessary they need shot.

The act of shooting at that point can be done with live fire on a Terrible Ted. The role playing element is vital. If you haven't done it, its akin to not being involved in fistfight. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[TXGunGeek]

I have to disagree with your rationale. The realism role playing introduces isn't the act of shooting and being shot at. Its the interaction between people, and at what point one reaches the decision someone has done something that makes it necessary they need shot.

Ken, If you'll go back to my first post on the topic where I said;

What it does is give you the chance to be in various situations and have to make the decisions under pressure and find out if that decision was right in a traininng setting instead of when it happens on the street.

and

FoF training with Airsoft is a great way to train for the real world in addition to other training. One thing to keep in mind that is VERY important, DO NOT trainin yourself into the position that every scenario is a shooting scenario. One thing that role playing allows is for the action to branch into several possible outcomes. Often time not shooting and using other less or non leathal alternatives is the correct answer.

I think this is exactly what you are pointing towards. However, I take issue with your comment that dealing with incoming is not the rationale. OK it is not THE rationale but it is part of the entire experience. Bad choice of words on my part. Making the right desicion under stress then dealing with the results of that decision including the consequences of the situation becoming a shoot scenario. It also reenforces the fact that getting your shots off is not as important as not getting shot. Forcing the student to think the situation through further and understanding all the variables. This is why professional after action debriefs are important and why a seperate person to critique the action is so important.

I also disagree that you can use a tactical or terrible ted on the range to simulate a real gunfight. Ted ain't shootin back and if he is and you're shooting live ammo at him somebody is doing something on the range I wouldn't want to be around. Like I added, trying to shoot while somene is shooting at you is exactly like your comment on fistfighting, if you haven't done it you don't know what you don't know.

I think we are dancing around both of us agreeing with each other in different terms or priorities. It really is all part of a total package. Getting all of it is best, getting some of it can be helpful and getting none of it sucks but is where most of the armed population is.

 

[Coronach]

The act of shooting at that point can be done with live fire on a Terrible Ted.

I think this is a viable alternative, in the sense that it should also be done. However, I think being able to fluidly go through the whole scenario from start to finish, without any pause between the stimulus (the roleplayer's action) and your response (gunfire, if appropriate) is very valuable, and should be done as well. Obviously that cannot be done with live fire, so Simuntions, Paintball or Airsoft is the answer to that part of the training.

Mike

 

[BullfrogKen]

TXGunGeek said: I think we are dancing around both of us agreeing with each other

Yes, you're right, we are. In retrospect, I did single out a comment apart from the whole of your posts.

TXGunGeek said: Ted ain't shootin back and if he is and you're shooting live ammo at him somebody is doing something on the range I wouldn't want to be around.

Would it surprise you to find out we've found ways to make Terrible Teds shoot non-lethal round at practitioners? The team at the NTI have had this as a part of the NTI since before I became a team member; I'd venture to guess its been a technique used in some form in the event since NTI #1.


Mike, absolutely it should be a fluid series of events. I don't disagree. I've reached the conclusion that the value of role playing is not the act of shooting. I DO SEE strange, wierd things happen. I didn't say its of NO value. I think the incremental value is overshadowed by the unique interaction only achieved by role playing. The role playing can be done with drones (red/blue guns), and still not be dimished.

The act of shooting is different in force of force. Absolutely. But, the stressors, the movement, can be replicated outside Sims. The role playing cannot. The process of reading an unfolding situation, interacting with role players, experiencing the ebb and flow of a confrontation as it becomes a lethal encounter, and finally, reaching the decision - whatever point that is for us as individuals - to use (simulated) deadly force on another cannot be replicated elsewhere. Teds are armed, or they aren't. They comply, or they don't. The decision to use deadly force is a much less complicated affair.

As I mentioned, the act of shooting does not add much incremental value. Otherwise, we could all simply don paintball gear, and go out and play coybows and indians to learn how to shoot and not be shot. The value in role playing is in the interaction. Good force on force understands that lesson and develops scenarios to teach that lesson. Poorly run force on force is a game of tag.


I don't intend to create an arguement, and I'm in agreement with you both. Frankly, I think this needed to be explored more for the others reading this, than for us. I've seen really poorly run role playing exercises that aren't much more than capture the flag, and yes, those offer no training value.