Using Airsoft for Self Defense Training/Practice

[Shadow 7D]

The value is in the training, it's like quick draw

whoop ti do, you can pull iron in .17 seconds, what good does it do if your first round is 2 inches from your big toe.

the military simunitions replaces the upper or slide with a blue barreled simunitons one.

Safety is always key, I'd go as far as saying that the airsoft would be kept with my cleaning supplies. You should have a system in place to maintain safety when you train, even in with dry fire.

 

[maskedman504]

The archives should carry extensive information on this exact topic.

I believe the aim of this forum community is not to simply be a reference of information, but, rather, to be a reference of knowledge. Sure, this topic may have been discussed before, but it is a bit more abstract than, say, "9mm vs. .40 vs. 45 whats the difference".

To me, atleast, training with an Airsoft seems beneficial because you can draw, aim and fire at a rapidly advancing live target without the safety concerns of using an actual weapon. Perhaps allow yourself to get over that moment of hesitation that could be so costly in a critical situation. I suppose we could handgun hunt charging lions, but I'd rather not.

 

[tegemu]

I use an Airsoft 1911 for target practice in my home. I have a target with three, reducing in size, targets that go down when hit. When you shoot the last and smallest target, they all automatically reset. I feel it is excellent home training just like dry firing. Several of the training centers use them in ther live fire exercises, where a danger to someone is likely.

 

[Elvishead]

Noted

 

[Extremely Pro Gun]

Why dont you save your money and just unload your real gun before you practice this? Or get a revolver and use those snap caps for dryfiring.

 

[jmorris]

When my minor brother in law shot IDPA with me I got him a "green gas" semiauto G17 to practice with at home. It was slightly larger (had to tweek the holster) and didn't have the same trigger pull. It did help him out though, mag changes, draw and such.

 

[conw]

mercop writes some stuff about this and uses it in his classes (from what I have read). It looks like good stuff. IMO everyone saying it's a stupid idea doesn't understand the purpose...the purpose is to get some experience pulling the trigger on a person in a semi-serious mindset, making decisions on shoot/don't shoot, etc. The purpose is not to totally supplant range time or dry fire practice, etc.

 

[G19x]

"Why dont you save your money and just unload your real gun before you practice this? Or get a revolver and use those snap caps for dryfiring."
That's not really the same. The purpose of buying an airsoft replica of your carry pistol is to have something that fits in your everyday carry holster and can be used to engage and hit and live moving target while you are moving off the x. Combine that with magazine that replicate weight and capacity of a normal pistol with the same manual of arms it leads to a great training experience. There's one article HERE that describes a little bit about the importance of FOF.

I'd rather spend a limited time I have firing away at a moving target than firing away at paper. They both have their importance I just think one is a bit more realistic.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's not a terrible idea, if you are willing to get the airsoft guns that look and function identically to the real ones you will be using. I have been in training where they were used to demonstrate how to twist away from someone who has a gun on you, and how slow a real reaction is against a charging attacker.

 

[conw]

G19x, exactly. You're the only person who seems to realize the importance of FOF on this thread (I only skimmed it a while back though).

To paraphrase mercop, even the best guys range-skills wise were point shooting on the way up from the draw when they had a guy charging them with a "knife" in his FOF class. Knowing you can draw and function under pressure is way more important than whether you get 6/10 or 10/10 in the X during slow fire at 25 yards.

 

[Mr. T]

I don't know, I think if you are going to train effectively you really ought to do it with the live ammo and real weapon that you intend to use for your SD weapon. I understand the need to find less expensive means to train and airsoft may provide even a safe venue to do that; however it is my opinion that training with one weapon and then using another, in a time of emergency is just asking for trouble. If you want things to become 2nd nature for you then you have to consistently train with that particular weapon. My opinion-- leave the airsoft stuff to the kids and wannabe's.

 

[Gryffydd]

I don't know, I think if you are going to train effectively you really ought to do it with the live ammo and real weapon that you intend to use for your SD weapon.

Let me know how that goes when you practice clearing your house with a friend playing the intruder, or practice draw and fire while moving on a moving target inside your house. The point of practicing with something like airsoft isn't marksmanship. I think it's a great way to practice shooting while being shot at. You my find yourself getting hit far more than you expect if you've only been shooting at paper targets.

 

[onlymeself]

I don't think it's such a bad idea. You can't practice with your real weapon, with some guy running at you. Even if they did make a suit, like to training dogs, the guy would be much slower. But then again with an airsoft you're still not going to have to adrenaline, and fear cuz everyone knows it's training.
And unless you are putting welts on your buddy you won't know if your shots would of been effective. "I hit you COM, no that hit me in the arm."
Personally I'm not going to play BG for my hubby to welt me with a green gas airsoft. And I don't think he'll let me do that to him.
Now maybe I could get the kids to do it... once. My youngest son got shot by my oldest son from about a foot away.(AD I'm told) It left a nasty welt that turned into a bruise. I don't think I could get him to do it. If you could figure out how to make sure your shots are effective it might be good training. Cuz if your shots aren't effective doesn't matter if you can clear leather fast.
So I'm on the fence, might be good, but....

 

[MisterMike]

I'll be honest and tell you that this idea freaks me out a little bit. In any training environment I've been in where the weapon is not capable of firing live rounds or had its firing mechanism disabled, it has always been very easy to tell it was a practice weapon--the "practice" gun is solid red or blue, or some bright-colored mechanism has been placed on the muzzle to identify it as disabled.

The Airsoft guns I've seen are pretty hard to distinguish from the real things, except for maybe a colored tip on the muzzle. If you're planning to use an Airsoft for training, I'd make sure that it screams "Practice Gun!" by painting it, placing colored duct tape around the grip, or taking some similar measure. It's too easy to screw up when you are dealing with two almost-identical guns, one operational and one fake.

 

[conw]

But then again with an airsoft you're still not going to have to adrenaline, and fear cuz everyone knows it's training.

That's why you have multiple buddies, and construct the situation carefully to resemble a real situation. Get in the proper mindset. If you do enough training sessions you will learn something, even though - as most people point out - you can't duplicate the real thing.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too...I don't see why it's so hard to understand; you practice with live ammo and a real weapon at a fake target, or you practice with dummy ammo or a fake weapon at a real target (person approaching you w/ intent to harm); why is one better than the other, why can't we do both?

 

[G19x]

I've done some FOF via airsoft with just the guys in the backyard and sim training is a more structured environment. In both cases I can assure you the thoughts of "this is just training and i can play" are not even in your head. The adrenaline is red lined and you're looking to not get shot and get the hell out of the area.
It gets the blood pumping in a totally different way than a flag football game would. Right there in that moment it feels like it's life or death even if they are
just playing like "kids and wannabes"
Hell I never been in a gun fight. maybe bad guys are really stationary black silhouettes .....

 

[ilbob]

Could using an airsoft reproduction of your carry/SD weapon for roleplaying training simulations yield positive results if an actual self defense situation arised?

A lot of things "could" help you out in an actual SD situation.

Personally I am not real fond of the idea of DIY training like you seem to be asking about.

Not much different than paintball.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Then you haven't played paintball with the right people, our local swat team used to make a day out of paintball and BBQ. After the first or second flashbang and the CS gas starts kicking, let me know how that adrenalin is going. Add to it a K9 that hates flash band and you as one of the few people out of uniform (I stopped and did not move, which the was what the handlers where yelling at me, the K9 still got a good grip on my pants, bad place, wrong time) Something I can tell you is that while I was playing the bad guy, when I got up and started shooting the cops again because they forgot to secure me and remove my weapon, I got bounced around and taken to the LT by a VERY angry officer that I had shot multiple times in the back.

Its the quality, when you dismiss a training opportunity, EVEN if it is friend in a back yard working though self created scenarios with airsoft. You deprive yourself the opportunity to look at how to make it a better experience

By the reasoning in the dismissals of using FOF, airsoft or self taught fire arms handling( most people call practice), then why do you bother to comment, after all we are all mall ninjas blathering away. And for those who would like live fire, HUH, what about the 4 rules?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Fully one half of the stages at the National Tactical Invitational event consists of Force on Force/roleplaying scenarios with Simunitions. Practitioners consistently comment on that portion of the event as some of the most enjoyable, challenging, and eye-awakening part of day.

Very few Practitioners have the opportunity to be exposed to well-run role playing events. Trainers have tried for years to offer opportunities for their students to take a class consistenting of nothing but role playing/Force on Force classes. They get very few students. Most want to take the classes that teaches them how to shoot the gun.


Role playing scenarios are vital to our study. The training most students take typically consists of teaching the students how to shoot. Simunitions/Role Playing/Force on Force scenarios - call it what you will - teach us when to shoot.

The real value in interactive training scenarios is not the act of pulling the trigger. The NTI Study Group uses Airsoft guns when we meet each month for our own personal study sessions. They're cheaper to use. But we've also used red guns, especially when the goal of the day is to focus on social skills and reading the ebb and flow of the scenario as it plays itself out. Giving the Practitioner a red gun removes the "shooting" part of the scenario. Nothing happens when he pulls the trigger. We let the scenario play itself out, and if it does reach the point where the Practitioner would shoot, the judge calls stop, and we do a debrief.


So yes, there is a value in using Airsoft and Simunitions for role playing scenarios. Since the average Joe cannot purchase Sims, the only alternatives are red guns or Airsoft. But even if you can get them, Airsoft is cheaper and easier to clean up. Sim rounds cost about $2.00 per round, and leaves paint behind.


Well-run role playing scenarios allow us the opportunity to interact with a criminal actor and read the situation. It develops our social skills, and gives us the chance to learn how to manipulate our environment - both the people and the structure itself - to our advantage. It helps us develop our social skills in the moments imminent to an assault or criminal act. It lets us learn to see how our behavior can affect another's - what de-escalates an encounter and what we do that escalates it. A good debrief will explore the nuances of that interaction.


I would NOT use real guns for this type of personal study. We use them at the NTI with Sim rounds. But sim rounds come with adapter kits that must be installed in the gun, and those adapters disable the gun from accepting live ammo. Whenever we get together the environment where we do our Force on Force scenarios is strictly controlled. We take any and all weapons off our body and put them away, then we thoroughly search each other. We use the Indoor Range at the club, and no one goes into that room without being searched, including any observers and the judge controlling the scenario.

I'd caution anyone who decides to participate in such training to follow the same procedures. Police Officers are literally accidentally shot every year in training with guns that everyone thought were unloaded.

 

[conw]

This is gonna cause a few to shake their heads in disbelief, but I think some basic character acting knowledge could help you play a bad guy effectively. And who knows, you might get something out of playing the bad guy too, like sm says "don't think like prey, think like a criminal."

ilbob, aren't most formal training classes geared at giving you at least *something* to practice on your own? If not seems like they're mightily overpriced. Mercop's classes are designed to do so with FOF according to his correspondence with me.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Good info Ken. However, you forgot to add stressful to the list of adjectives in the first paragraph.

I've said it before & will say it again. FOF is about THINKING not just shooting. Since we can't seek out potentially deadly force encounters for training SIMS/UTM/Airsoft are the best alternatives.

My wife ruined her favorite sweatshirt & took a Sims round to the nipple in ECQC & can't wait to go back. The lessons learned in sweat & welts will better prepare you for when blood & bullet holes are the order of the day.

The quality of the evolutions is dependant on the actors in the scenarios. If there is a well thought out & planned scenario & the actor(s) stick to that plan it can be an incredible learning experience. If you let it devolve to playing like the kids next door that is your failure, not the failure of FOF in general.

 

[ilbob]

ilbob, aren't most formal training classes geared at giving you at least *something* to practice on your own? If not seems like they're mightily overpriced. Mercop's classes are designed to do so with FOF according to his correspondence with me.

I don't see anything wrong with a structured training session run by people with at least some clue.

What I got from the OP did not seem to include much in the way of structure or clued in trainers.

If it is just a bunch of guys screwing around in their backyard, might as well just go play paint ball.

<added>
BTW, if you want to go in the back yard and play with air soft guns for the fun of it, I really don't have an issue with that. Fun is important. Just don't pretend it is a serious training session.

 

[Fred Fuller]

From the 'FWIW' department- I ran across this looking for some other information this morning. KR Training is in Bryan, TX.

lpl
=====

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/AirsoftFOF.html

Airsoft Force-on-Force Instructor

Course Description: This course trains instructors to design and safely run force-on-force training using Airsoft firearm replicas.

Topics: Force-on-force training concepts, safety issues, Airsoft equipment, developing roleplaying skills, scenario design and evaluation, use of Airsoft guns for marksmanship training, integration of Airsoft guns with unarmed force-on-force training.

Length: sixteen hours

Prerequisites: Any or all of the following: NRA, Texas CHL or other instructor certification. Prior force-on-force training experience and defensive handgun training. Texas CHL or other state concealed handgun license. Others admiited to course based on instructor assessment (email training history).

Required Equipment: none.

Optional Equipment: A holster suitable for a Glock or 1911 handgun is useful. If you own your own Airsoft gun(s) or safety gear, bring it. See the general policies page for suggestions on food, drink, clothing, etc.

Taught by: Karl Rehn

Facility: A-Zone Range

Additional information: This course is intended to teach pistol shooters and pistol instructors how to design and safely run Airsoft-based force-on-force training events similar to KR Training classes AT-2 and AT-5.

 

[GForceLizard]

Dryfire and .22 conversions are good accepted training techniques. Airsoft would fall in this same category like sim. guns used by Military and LE. They all have their limits, like no recoil. You can learn; draw, sight picture, target transitions, etc. Just don't think they replace live fire practice.

 

[GEM]

I've done the NTI and been a couple of KRTraining FOF classes. I second the idea that the best use of Airsoft is in well designed FOF simulations and scenarios.

The course of the scenario needs to be well laid out and scripted. The responses of the BGs have to be planned so as not to have a kiddie shoot-out. After action analyses have to be well thought out and not just WooHoo crap.

Having an airsoft and pieing around the house with a buddy - if you are both novices may give you some insights but it pales in comparison to a well supervised class or event like the NTI.

And your adrenalin does pound. I think Hersh told me to breathe as I was turned blue after one run.

You get the best info when you 'die'. Oops - I thought I was a champion or Bruce Willis. Airsoft and sims can also hurt a bit - they drew blood through my tee shirt - when Mr. Tactical genius here managed to get vaporized by the NTI grinning tormentators in a cluster mating eventing.

Karl Rehn of KRtraining is a pioneer in this usage. If you can get to one of his classes do so. Or if you can get to the NTI and can qualify do so.