My question is simple. How many of you go out and only shoot at stationary targets from a stationary position? How many of you practice shooting on the move? How many of you practice shooting at moving targets? How many of you practice other combat shooting? There is not a poll because a lot of people vote and don't post. I am asking the question because I just finished the FBI Firearms Instructor School and learned a lot of my departments policies are inadequet as far as training and liability goes. We shoot one qualification course a year, which is a joke. Personally, I shoot at least 300 rounds of ammo through the Glock 20 and 300 through the XD .45 each month because those are my two duty weapons that I alternate between. I was just wondering how often people who are not in LE actually train combat shooting. I know it has to be more than the average LEO because those are what I work with.
Training
- Thread starter opd743
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The Bushmaster
Member
I have no idea how many...
odp743
Many people are stuck with a gun range. So no moving and shooting.
Many others can't afford that type of training.
So many people have the same training, or lack of training ( YOUR PHRASE )as your police dept.
However most civies. I know would take the training if given the chance. [ chance = money & time ]
Many people are stuck with a gun range. So no moving and shooting.
Many others can't afford that type of training.
So many people have the same training, or lack of training ( YOUR PHRASE )as your police dept.
However most civies. I know would take the training if given the chance. [ chance = money & time ]
you're probably not going to get a representative sample from THR. if you asked this question on lightfighter or brianenos' forums, for example, I suspect you'd get a pretty wildly different answer.
I for one, get to shoot while moving and shoot at moving targets probably one or two days / month, but i practice dry firing while moving etc probably one or two days/week. a lot more before a 3gun match, and a lot less during CMP season.
(edit: i'm also averaging about one class/year where this is taught)
I for one, get to shoot while moving and shoot at moving targets probably one or two days / month, but i practice dry firing while moving etc probably one or two days/week. a lot more before a 3gun match, and a lot less during CMP season.
(edit: i'm also averaging about one class/year where this is taught)
Bushmaster, WOW, just the answer I was looking for...... I was asking because not many shootings are stationary and was wondering how many train as such.
NDN-MAN, I agree with you 100% that most people are stuck to just shooting still targets. I am as well when at my dad's range. My FBI course was free also, thats the only reason I was sent by my department. I was mostly refering to not just shooting for marksmanship, but also shooting for what might happen in real life. Instead of standing at 7 yards and seeing if you can make 1 hole with 10 shots, try standing at 5 yards and draw on command and point shoot two rounds within a 5" circle.
NDN-MAN, I agree with you 100% that most people are stuck to just shooting still targets. I am as well when at my dad's range. My FBI course was free also, thats the only reason I was sent by my department. I was mostly refering to not just shooting for marksmanship, but also shooting for what might happen in real life. Instead of standing at 7 yards and seeing if you can make 1 hole with 10 shots, try standing at 5 yards and draw on command and point shoot two rounds within a 5" circle.
Steve in PA
Member
I've been doing non-stationary drills with my dept ever since I became a firearms instructor several years ago.
R127
Member
If you're not doing force on force you're fooling yourself. Very few people do force on force. Of those who do most only do force on force with the same small group of people, no surprises.
Brian@ITC
Member
What is your definition of combat shooting because it may not be the same as ours. We have found that “combat” has become a generic word even in the martial arts world. There is “combat” jujutsu that is sport oriented. So, to assume that all “combat” shooting is the same is a mistake. Innovative Tactical Concepts definition of combat shooting is different from most people because we don’t shoot “traditionally” in our Advanced Pistol Fighting course.
Also, are we referring to real life threatening situations that are likely to happen or some farfetched scenario? Another question is at what distance do you normally practice? For civilians, most confrontations take place within 10 ft. And most of that takes place within 6 feet. Approximately 90% of confrontations take place within 10 feet, so about 90% of your training should be done within that distance.
If you practice shooting and moving while shooting at moving targets, at what speed are you moving? Do you move “just fast enough” to hit your target? Or, are you at a running speed which is ideal if you are facing an opponent with a gun.
What directions are you moving? Lateral movement is not the “best” way to move in many situations. Are you moving in or away from the threat? What type of shooting stance are you using… one or two handed with your arms fully extended or from a retention format?
One thing that you want to make sure that you avoid doing is to fire a certain number of shots and then holstering your gun. You need to mix it up.
Personally, I shoot quite often. Of course, when you have your own personal range like I do just about 75 yards away from the house, you can shoot any time without any “rules”. My range is about 30 yards wide by 108 yards so I have a nice little playground.
http://www.right2defend.com/itc_range.htm
I agree, force on force training (when done correctly) is priceless. You will not experience anything like it on the square range regardless of all of the technology available. For those of you who cannot move and shoot on the range, get some quality airsoft guns to practice in your backyard! It is cheap to shoot and you can do it just about anywhere.
Also, are we referring to real life threatening situations that are likely to happen or some farfetched scenario? Another question is at what distance do you normally practice? For civilians, most confrontations take place within 10 ft. And most of that takes place within 6 feet. Approximately 90% of confrontations take place within 10 feet, so about 90% of your training should be done within that distance.
If you practice shooting and moving while shooting at moving targets, at what speed are you moving? Do you move “just fast enough” to hit your target? Or, are you at a running speed which is ideal if you are facing an opponent with a gun.
What directions are you moving? Lateral movement is not the “best” way to move in many situations. Are you moving in or away from the threat? What type of shooting stance are you using… one or two handed with your arms fully extended or from a retention format?
One thing that you want to make sure that you avoid doing is to fire a certain number of shots and then holstering your gun. You need to mix it up.
Personally, I shoot quite often. Of course, when you have your own personal range like I do just about 75 yards away from the house, you can shoot any time without any “rules”. My range is about 30 yards wide by 108 yards so I have a nice little playground.
http://www.right2defend.com/itc_range.htm
I agree, force on force training (when done correctly) is priceless. You will not experience anything like it on the square range regardless of all of the technology available. For those of you who cannot move and shoot on the range, get some quality airsoft guns to practice in your backyard! It is cheap to shoot and you can do it just about anywhere.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Brian, I'll second all of what you said, especially about force on force.
Except.
Buy protection, too. Safety glasses, faceshields and neck protectors are the minimum protection you need for force on force. And make sure, whatever you do, you make sure everyone is sterile. Check yourself, and check each other. No guns, no knives, no ammo.
Every officer shot in a force on force exercise was shot with an unloaded gun . . . . or one that wasn't ever supposed to be there . . . . or by someone who had ammo they weren't supposed to have on them.
I'd recommend going to Brian's, or anyplace that offers force on force before you try doing it at home. But if you insist, take those minimum safety precautions first. I don't want to come here and read about how one of us was shot while doing FoF at home.
Except.
Buy protection, too. Safety glasses, faceshields and neck protectors are the minimum protection you need for force on force. And make sure, whatever you do, you make sure everyone is sterile. Check yourself, and check each other. No guns, no knives, no ammo.
Every officer shot in a force on force exercise was shot with an unloaded gun . . . . or one that wasn't ever supposed to be there . . . . or by someone who had ammo they weren't supposed to have on them.
I'd recommend going to Brian's, or anyplace that offers force on force before you try doing it at home. But if you insist, take those minimum safety precautions first. I don't want to come here and read about how one of us was shot while doing FoF at home.
The Bushmaster
Member
opd743...I'm sorry you didn't like my answer. I will try again.
I have had all kinds of training with a handgun. Both in the military where I earned Expert. And I had to do it on a military combat range. I have also ran the pop up good guy and bad guy range (shot the lady with the shopping cart. Just knew she had a gun in there). And I have had some training in civilian life too. I, also, have my own pistol range just outside my back yard not far from my loading bench in the house. None of it is any good until you are really in a real gun fight and find out what you are made of...Unless you have commited the training to your subconscious it is of no use...I've been there in civilian life. Not fun...
My answer still remains..."I have no idea how many."
I have had all kinds of training with a handgun. Both in the military where I earned Expert. And I had to do it on a military combat range. I have also ran the pop up good guy and bad guy range (shot the lady with the shopping cart. Just knew she had a gun in there). And I have had some training in civilian life too. I, also, have my own pistol range just outside my back yard not far from my loading bench in the house. None of it is any good until you are really in a real gun fight and find out what you are made of...Unless you have commited the training to your subconscious it is of no use...I've been there in civilian life. Not fun...
My answer still remains..."I have no idea how many."
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I, fortunately, have a good relationship with the folks that run the range I frequent and can pretty much do what I want when nobody else is on the range. Alot of folks can't, and are forced to fire from static positions and can't live fire from the draw or do much more than slow aimed fire.
Amazingly enough, ALL those things you refer to, ie shooting and moving and engaging moving targets, can be done in competition, and is done in USPSA and IDPA matches every week all around the country. Those that don't have access to a range that allows them to move or draw, may very well have a club near them that runs matches. The shooting games WILL help you to become a better shooter, which can enhance one's "realistic" combat training.
I disagree with that completely.
The whole " X training is no good because in a "real" gun fight Y happens " is hogwash.
There isn't an armed service out there that trains by actually fighting with each other with live rounds, and amazingly enough, they generally do O.K. Training is training, and while there may be more efficient ways to accomplish a task, and perhaps more appropriate techniques in a given situation, ANY training is better than NO training.
There are NO training approaches or techniques that can 100% guarantee success when faced with a lethal force encounter. Sometimes the bad guys get lucky. All you can do is practice to the best of your ability and means, and hope your proficiency is a bigger factor than any luck the baddie may have...
30 cal slob
Member
i dry fire practice shooting on the move, because there are no public ranges in my area that allow it.
expvideo
Member
There aren't many opportunities to train out here in Western Washington, without spending a fortune. I try to practice marksmanship and weapon handling at the range. I practice communication, movement and tactics on an airsoft field. It's not the best kind of "training" available, but it's cheap and effective for learning communication and group level tactics without spending your life savings. I'm pretty poor, so going to Thunder Ranch isn't really an option for me, and I can only really afford enough ammo to keep my guns loaded.
Like I said, it's not the best method of training, but it's better than nothing. It's also fortunate that one of my team mates is part of a local law enforcement tactical team, so most of the stuff we train on is real tactics. Almost all of my team mates shoot military style rifles as well. If there were more places to move and shoot out here, we would practice more with our firearms.
Like I said, it's not the best method of training, but it's better than nothing. It's also fortunate that one of my team mates is part of a local law enforcement tactical team, so most of the stuff we train on is real tactics. Almost all of my team mates shoot military style rifles as well. If there were more places to move and shoot out here, we would practice more with our firearms.
mljdeckard
Member
I was fortunate enough to spend a weekend doing room clearing with my guard unit, taught by combat veterans. I have a few paintball welts, I gave a few. While I was out, I did seek out private training of this type, and I encourage everyone I know who carries to go to courses from Thunder Ranch or other institutions that offer advanced training. I advise them not to settle for training as good as police training.
No training is adequate. All any of us can do is what we can afford and have time for.
No training is adequate. All any of us can do is what we can afford and have time for.
1911 guy
Member
Count me in.
I had some training in the military, well beyond the standard "stand here and poke holes in that paper". Carried and used a handgun extensively as a backup. Got out in "04 and have continued my education with classes on my own dime. I don't have to be better than average, I have to be better than the person threatening my family. Since I don't get to pick them, I'd best train up.
I average about 200 a month on the square range, another 300 - 400 in moving drills and average one class a year. Dang, I'm glad I reload. Even that is getting spendy.
I had some training in the military, well beyond the standard "stand here and poke holes in that paper". Carried and used a handgun extensively as a backup. Got out in "04 and have continued my education with classes on my own dime. I don't have to be better than average, I have to be better than the person threatening my family. Since I don't get to pick them, I'd best train up.
I average about 200 a month on the square range, another 300 - 400 in moving drills and average one class a year. Dang, I'm glad I reload. Even that is getting spendy.
I practice shooting on the move at least 200 rounds per week, as well as at least 1 match per week. The ability to shoot while moving is critical to USPSA or IDPA- and I would imagine that it would help in the real world too. Moving targets are also a big part of USPSA, so I practice those whenever I can- and shoot them in matches pretty much weekly. The range where I shoot has private 50 yd bays with 15' embankments on 3 sides. I have started bringing 4" polystyrene target balls and throwing them up the embankment- drawing and hitting them before they get to the bottom. When you hit them they tend to bounce around a lot- so I just try and hit them as soon as they land. It is a lot less involved than setting up movers for practice. I got mine from Cheaper than Dirt.
I try to make sure that I have at least 3 target stands, set at different distances, for every practice. Try marking off "hard cover" and "no shoot" targets to help develop accuracy. Use a timer to push yourself on speed. Use your strong hand and weak hand and practice transitioning.
Find a local USPSA or IDPA match and you will have a better idea of what needs work.
I try to make sure that I have at least 3 target stands, set at different distances, for every practice. Try marking off "hard cover" and "no shoot" targets to help develop accuracy. Use a timer to push yourself on speed. Use your strong hand and weak hand and practice transitioning.
Find a local USPSA or IDPA match and you will have a better idea of what needs work.
"I was just wondering how often people who are not in LE actually train combat shooting. I know that it has to be more than the average LEO because those are what I work with..
Know what you mean.
Shortly, I'll be posting a link to a review of an advanced carbine training course taken in Sept. 2008. That was about 60% civilian (many were self-described "engineers," for some reason); the remainder various LEs and one or two military.
In fact, in the courses I've taken over the years, the student break-down generally consists of: (1) civilians who are "into it," for lack of a better description, although perhaps "more motivated" captures it; (2) with the remainder being LE (some actaully payed for their own training) and a few military.
I agree that "one qual" a year is a joke. It's especially vexing to hear cops say that they don't need further "training" (once they qualify), reasoning that annual qualification is "proof" of training. Why? Because their municipal attorney, who represents them in civil liability suits, said so. Plus, with a few exceptions, paying for training ("quals" ) beyond what the Dept provides is "expensive."
Then the public encounters natural disasters like Katrina, or man-caused conflagrations like the L.A. riots, and wonders why the local Gendarmes aren't there to save the day.
My sense is the civilians I've seen have it right: get good professional training initially, and sustainment training thereafter as you can afford; practice what you've learned when and where you can; develop a self-sufficient mind-set; don't trust the "gommint" to protect you - 'cause the probabilities are they won't.
Know what you mean.
Shortly, I'll be posting a link to a review of an advanced carbine training course taken in Sept. 2008. That was about 60% civilian (many were self-described "engineers," for some reason); the remainder various LEs and one or two military.
In fact, in the courses I've taken over the years, the student break-down generally consists of: (1) civilians who are "into it," for lack of a better description, although perhaps "more motivated" captures it; (2) with the remainder being LE (some actaully payed for their own training) and a few military.
I agree that "one qual" a year is a joke. It's especially vexing to hear cops say that they don't need further "training" (once they qualify), reasoning that annual qualification is "proof" of training. Why? Because their municipal attorney, who represents them in civil liability suits, said so. Plus, with a few exceptions, paying for training ("quals"
) beyond what the Dept provides is "expensive."Then the public encounters natural disasters like Katrina, or man-caused conflagrations like the L.A. riots, and wonders why the local Gendarmes aren't there to save the day.
My sense is the civilians I've seen have it right: get good professional training initially, and sustainment training thereafter as you can afford; practice what you've learned when and where you can; develop a self-sufficient mind-set; don't trust the "gommint" to protect you - 'cause the probabilities are they won't.
Agtman,
I tend to think that you see a lot of "engineers" at this type of training is due to the mindset of Engineer-types. "Skill at arms" is a skill that requires training, practice and dedication- just like Engineering. You can't learn it once and consider yourself set.
As for why more people that rely on firearms don't get as much training as possible with them, puzzles me as well. That being said, I would imagine that in the LE world (and military as well) there are still a lot of folks that just punch the clock and do the minimum needed to get by.
I tend to think that you see a lot of "engineers" at this type of training is due to the mindset of Engineer-types. "Skill at arms" is a skill that requires training, practice and dedication- just like Engineering. You can't learn it once and consider yourself set.
As for why more people that rely on firearms don't get as much training as possible with them, puzzles me as well. That being said, I would imagine that in the LE world (and military as well) there are still a lot of folks that just punch the clock and do the minimum needed to get by.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
agtman,
This might sound nitpicky, and if it does I really don't intend it to come across this way.
I recoil when I hear the term "civilian" used in the context of your post.
Officers with duties to perform are civilians, too.
We had a Marine Infantry Sergeant come through a couple years ago; had been in Iraq and by that time stationed at Quantico. At the end of the week we were all sitting around exchanging stories and smoking cigars. Only a very few of the people in the group of 50 gathered carried any current military credentials. As he was talking to us about the sort of respect he found for the men and women he spent the week with, he struggled to find an appropriate term.
He thought about it, and decided to refer to them as "Armed Citizens". When asked why he chose that term, he said somehow he felt referring to them as civilians just wasn't quite appropriate.
Again not being nitpicky, but cops are civilians, too. Military personnel are military. Cops have duties to perform, so their training reflects that duty obligation. But I would be sure not to lump them into the "military" group.
opd743,
Actually just from what I've seen, the ratio of ordinary gun owners that seek out training opportunities, or do dynamic shooting, are a lot less than the number of Officers that seek out personal training, or do dynamic shooting outside of mandatory minimums.
---------------------------------------------------------
As an exercise I once crunched the numbers of how many residents live in the area my gun club serves - York, Cumberland, and Dauphin County. I then took a look at how many carry licenses were issued in those 3 counties around me. We know not everyone who owns guns in PA has a carry permit, but PA's license is shall issue, quite cheap, and has no required training component. It was an inexact, but rough way to approximate of how many people in the area owned guns that were appropriate for self-defense, and not solely for hunting or sporting purposes. PA also has some of the highest rates in the nation of carry permits to total residents.
I compared those numbers with the amount of folks that are on the club's membership roster. Our club's dues are only $55.00 a year. Again, not very expensive. And I separately compared those numbers with how many folks I saw taking advantage of the club's training opportunities, dynamic shooting events, or just plain came out and did that kind of shooting on their own.
The number of total gun owners in the area that came out to do anything that approximated defensive training was so small as to be statiscially insignificant. The number of club members that came out more than a couple times a year to shoot in some fashion that approximated dynamic shooting or training seemed to come out at around 20%. Keep in mind this is at a club designed around dynamic shooting and built to facilitate training activities.
The number of area cops that I know who go shoot or train on their own represent maybe one in every 10-15 guys in a department.
Most gun owners don't put much more than a box or two of ammo downrange a year. Only a handful of gun owners seek out training. And even if they did, very few have the facilities to go back home and practiced what they learned. Most gun club have tight restrictions, or even absolute prohibitions on that type of shooting activity. Of the 10 or so gun clubs I know in my 3 county area, only a few of them have rules allowing any type of dynamic shooting at all.
I'd have to say that from my observations in my area - the percentage of cops that go do dynamic shooting on their own time and the number of armed citizen shooting enthusiasts that do dynamic shooting are about the same. If you compare those cops to the total number of gun owners here, there is no comparison. The numbers are too small to measure.
This might sound nitpicky, and if it does I really don't intend it to come across this way.
I recoil when I hear the term "civilian" used in the context of your post.
Officers with duties to perform are civilians, too.
We had a Marine Infantry Sergeant come through a couple years ago; had been in Iraq and by that time stationed at Quantico. At the end of the week we were all sitting around exchanging stories and smoking cigars. Only a very few of the people in the group of 50 gathered carried any current military credentials. As he was talking to us about the sort of respect he found for the men and women he spent the week with, he struggled to find an appropriate term.
He thought about it, and decided to refer to them as "Armed Citizens". When asked why he chose that term, he said somehow he felt referring to them as civilians just wasn't quite appropriate.
Again not being nitpicky, but cops are civilians, too. Military personnel are military. Cops have duties to perform, so their training reflects that duty obligation. But I would be sure not to lump them into the "military" group.
opd743,
Actually just from what I've seen, the ratio of ordinary gun owners that seek out training opportunities, or do dynamic shooting, are a lot less than the number of Officers that seek out personal training, or do dynamic shooting outside of mandatory minimums.
---------------------------------------------------------
As an exercise I once crunched the numbers of how many residents live in the area my gun club serves - York, Cumberland, and Dauphin County. I then took a look at how many carry licenses were issued in those 3 counties around me. We know not everyone who owns guns in PA has a carry permit, but PA's license is shall issue, quite cheap, and has no required training component. It was an inexact, but rough way to approximate of how many people in the area owned guns that were appropriate for self-defense, and not solely for hunting or sporting purposes. PA also has some of the highest rates in the nation of carry permits to total residents.
I compared those numbers with the amount of folks that are on the club's membership roster. Our club's dues are only $55.00 a year. Again, not very expensive. And I separately compared those numbers with how many folks I saw taking advantage of the club's training opportunities, dynamic shooting events, or just plain came out and did that kind of shooting on their own.
The number of total gun owners in the area that came out to do anything that approximated defensive training was so small as to be statiscially insignificant. The number of club members that came out more than a couple times a year to shoot in some fashion that approximated dynamic shooting or training seemed to come out at around 20%. Keep in mind this is at a club designed around dynamic shooting and built to facilitate training activities.
The number of area cops that I know who go shoot or train on their own represent maybe one in every 10-15 guys in a department.
Most gun owners don't put much more than a box or two of ammo downrange a year. Only a handful of gun owners seek out training. And even if they did, very few have the facilities to go back home and practiced what they learned. Most gun club have tight restrictions, or even absolute prohibitions on that type of shooting activity. Of the 10 or so gun clubs I know in my 3 county area, only a few of them have rules allowing any type of dynamic shooting at all.
I'd have to say that from my observations in my area - the percentage of cops that go do dynamic shooting on their own time and the number of armed citizen shooting enthusiasts that do dynamic shooting are about the same. If you compare those cops to the total number of gun owners here, there is no comparison. The numbers are too small to measure.
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Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Thanks for the analysis, Ken. It pretty well confirms what I have thought in the past. People who are willing to seek training beyond the basics are few and far between. Those who go to one class, seem to keep going to more classes, those who never start... well, they never start.
I for one wish it wasn't so far from here to WSSA. You'd get tired of seeing me... 8^).
lpl
I for one wish it wasn't so far from here to WSSA. You'd get tired of seeing me... 8^).
lpl
loneviking
Member
BullfrogKen, are you in or around a major metropolitan area? I just wonder if the results are skewed in that training areas around major cities are hard to find, folks are disinterested as a result of that, and since most of the population is in large cities--the results are skewed?
The reason I ask is that locally, for me, I have a range with bays that allow 'scoot and shoot' and they are used every week by IDPA; security companies; and occasionally cops. I was there yesterday (Friday) and the range was packed with folks waiting for a spot to open up!
The guys in the next bay over from me were Army National Guard Security...whatever that is?! I thought the Army had MP's, but these guys were really running a lot of movement drills. I put about 130 rounds through a 'new to me' S&W 65 to find out where it shoots since the sights are fixed.
Anyway, the two ranges near me are often very busy and I know of at least three, well attended IDPA clubs in the area. This is a rural area and maybe that makes the difference?
The reason I ask is that locally, for me, I have a range with bays that allow 'scoot and shoot' and they are used every week by IDPA; security companies; and occasionally cops. I was there yesterday (Friday) and the range was packed with folks waiting for a spot to open up!
The guys in the next bay over from me were Army National Guard Security...whatever that is?! I thought the Army had MP's, but these guys were really running a lot of movement drills. I put about 130 rounds through a 'new to me' S&W 65 to find out where it shoots since the sights are fixed.
Anyway, the two ranges near me are often very busy and I know of at least three, well attended IDPA clubs in the area. This is a rural area and maybe that makes the difference?
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Lee,
You know it's interesting . . . Guys who want to make the time to do it just make the time to go do it. It's not a slight against anyone, or meant to demean those who don't. We all have busy lives.
The Chair of my major at college once had a discussion in class about Clinton's proposal to offer 2 years of taxpayer-funded college classes to Americans. He stated it wouldn't make a difference if it were free or not; there would no statistically measureable increase in people signing up for college, free or otherwise. Those who make it a priority find ways to get it; those who didn't wouldn't go even if it were free. I doubted that claim then. I'm convinced he's right today.
I've seen guys from all over the country rave about the place when they come here, and wish they were closeby to take advantage of it. Some actually fly out every year to do just that. Then we have guys in our own back yard that have memberships here they never use. Some found out about the place when they took one of the classes, after having paid hundreds of dollars for the tuition and ammo, and joined the club but really never came back. In fact, I gave a tour to a fellow today that took an Insights Class back in 1995. Today was his first time back since.
That's just the way it is.
loneviking,
This is South Central PA.
I can list 10 gun clubs just off the top of my head within 20 miles of my house. Harrisburg is about 15 minutes north, but its not considered a major metropolitan area by a long shot. It's a city of about 50,000 people. And we're dug into the side of a mountain. The greater Susquehanna Valley area has pockets of dense population, but it's still quite rural.
We have 7 different outdoor shooting pits, two 360 degree shoot houses, a 200 yard rifle range, and an indoor pistol range. I've never been here and not been able to find a place to shoot. I've been here and seen people waiting for or sharing the popular ranges, like the plate racks or the rifle range the week before deer season. But no one has to wait for something to open up, unless they really want that particular range for some reason.
Currently 5 different township PD's use our facilities for quals and training. And the State Parole Board conducts 4 basic academies here a year now, plus refreshers. Insights Training and F.R.I. come out about 4 times a year each to rent a range, teaching classes to Armed Citizens. Tom Givens taught one a year, but he hasn't been out the past couple because we can't get enough students committed to fill them and make it worth his trip from Memphis.
Among other duties, I coordinate the calendar of activities that goes on at WSSA. And I speak with the Presidents of the other gun clubs here in the area from time to time. Most gun owners don't shoot. Very few actually train. Those that actually want to train usually have to go someplace special to do it, and they will seek it out. We have something special. Those who make it a priority in their life use it. Those who don't, won't.
What can I say? <shoulder shrug>
You know it's interesting . . . Guys who want to make the time to do it just make the time to go do it. It's not a slight against anyone, or meant to demean those who don't. We all have busy lives.
The Chair of my major at college once had a discussion in class about Clinton's proposal to offer 2 years of taxpayer-funded college classes to Americans. He stated it wouldn't make a difference if it were free or not; there would no statistically measureable increase in people signing up for college, free or otherwise. Those who make it a priority find ways to get it; those who didn't wouldn't go even if it were free. I doubted that claim then. I'm convinced he's right today.
I've seen guys from all over the country rave about the place when they come here, and wish they were closeby to take advantage of it. Some actually fly out every year to do just that. Then we have guys in our own back yard that have memberships here they never use. Some found out about the place when they took one of the classes, after having paid hundreds of dollars for the tuition and ammo, and joined the club but really never came back. In fact, I gave a tour to a fellow today that took an Insights Class back in 1995. Today was his first time back since.
That's just the way it is.
loneviking,
This is South Central PA.
I can list 10 gun clubs just off the top of my head within 20 miles of my house. Harrisburg is about 15 minutes north, but its not considered a major metropolitan area by a long shot. It's a city of about 50,000 people. And we're dug into the side of a mountain. The greater Susquehanna Valley area has pockets of dense population, but it's still quite rural.
We have 7 different outdoor shooting pits, two 360 degree shoot houses, a 200 yard rifle range, and an indoor pistol range. I've never been here and not been able to find a place to shoot. I've been here and seen people waiting for or sharing the popular ranges, like the plate racks or the rifle range the week before deer season. But no one has to wait for something to open up, unless they really want that particular range for some reason.
Currently 5 different township PD's use our facilities for quals and training. And the State Parole Board conducts 4 basic academies here a year now, plus refreshers. Insights Training and F.R.I. come out about 4 times a year each to rent a range, teaching classes to Armed Citizens. Tom Givens taught one a year, but he hasn't been out the past couple because we can't get enough students committed to fill them and make it worth his trip from Memphis.
Among other duties, I coordinate the calendar of activities that goes on at WSSA. And I speak with the Presidents of the other gun clubs here in the area from time to time. Most gun owners don't shoot. Very few actually train. Those that actually want to train usually have to go someplace special to do it, and they will seek it out. We have something special. Those who make it a priority in their life use it. Those who don't, won't.
What can I say? <shoulder shrug>
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