Tried offhand shooting... need advice

[Wanderling]

50 yards, AR-15 with scope, standing up, no sling.

I was trying to hit all bullseyes. You can pretty much see how I quickly got tired after the center spot... not a single hit in any of the remaining bullseyes.

I guess I did not hold the gun right. My left (supporting) jabs got tired pretty quickly and started to wander... and I am not at all dainty.

So, what’s the right way to do this ?

705FF787-FB57-407E-B197-94AA1806541A

• Wanderling
• Mar 26, 2018

50 yds scoped AR15 offhand Wolf Gold .223

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Have you tried reverse offhand grip.

 

[Slamfire]

Offhand shooting, be it rifle, or Bullseye Pistol, is the most difficult aspect of shooting that I have encountered. I do recommend trying it with a 22 LR, so you don't flinch!

I had to pork up my AR15's with lead weights, I think they weighed around 17 pounds, before I could shoot good across the course scores at 200 yards with the things. I installed under the handguard weights and weights that fit into the buttstock cavity. The AR just does not hang naturally, and it is so twitchy, that you need it to be heavier. You cannot snatch the trigger on a AR, like what we used to do with Garands and M1a's. You have to squeeze the things.

I did shoot a 99 with my M1a, at 100 yards!



I wear a quilted shooting coat, as do all NRA Highpower competitors, because the coat stiffens your mid section. I held my rifle high on the shoulder, you want your position to be such, that you are supported by bone, not by muscle. So, you basically adjust your feet and legs so the load path goes through the leg bones, not the leg muscles. The best shooters looked like contortionists the waist up. You have to find a position such that, if you relax, close your eyes, your body relaxes to a natural position where the rifle post stays in the middle of the target.

Then you practice. When you are physically tired, take a break. If you are wobbling around due to fatigue, you are not going to hit anything anyway. Practice shooting and not flinching! Easier said than done. Offhand takes years to get good at.

 

[marksman13]

Offhand shooting, be it rifle, or Bullseye Pistol, is the most difficult aspect of shooting that I have encountered. I do recommend trying it with a 22 LR, so you don't flinch!

I had to pork up my AR15's with lead weights, I think they weighed around 17 pounds, before I could shoot good across the course scores at 200 yards with the things. I installed under the handguard weights and weights that fit into the buttstock cavity. The AR just does not hang naturally, and it is so twitchy, that you need it to be heavier. You cannot snatch the trigger on a AR, like what we used to do with Garands and M1a's. You have to squeeze the things.

I did shoot a 99 with my M1a, at 100 yards!

View attachment 783285

I wear a quilted shooting coat, as do all NRA Highpower competitors, because the coat stiffens your mid section. I held my rifle high on the shoulder, you want your position to be such, that you are supported by bone, not by muscle. So, you basically adjust your feet and legs so the load path goes through the leg bones, not the leg muscles. The best shooters looked like contortionists the waist up. You have to find a position such that, if you relax, close your eyes, your body relaxes to a natural position where the rifle post stays in the middle of the target.

Then you practice. When you are physically tired, take a break. If you are wobbling around due to fatigue, you are not going to hit anything anyway. Practice shooting and not flinching! Easier said than done. Offhand takes years to get good at.

All of this is good advice. The standing, unsupported position is the most difficult shooting position. You can use a sling to improve your steadiness, but it will never be as easy as prone. Bone structure plays an important role as does fatigue. An AR-15 w/ a 30 or even a 20 round magazine is awkward to shoot in a proper off-hand stance, (or at least it is for me). Flush fitting mags cause less interference. Shooting from the standing position is even more difficult in body armor because in order to keep your plates turned towards the enemy, you are relying strictly on muscle to keep the rifle steady. Stay after it and find a good coach locally. You'll at least become proficient.

 

[warnerwh]

Only squeeze the trigger when the sights are on target and hold as they drift off target. Theoretically the gun should go off when sights are on the target. Our bodies aren't rigid so you have to find the most stable off hand position for you personally and use that. The above pictures are the best ways to shoot off hand accurately for myself and many others. Another thing to do is practice. It takes a lot of practice to shoot off hand accurately and consistently with any gun. A .22 is a great way to get that practice.

 

[Laphroaig]

I'm by no means a good standing shooter. Lots of good advice above. Two things that I have found help are:

1) natural point of aim. The sights need to be aligned as close as possible with your stance/hold. Move your feet sideways to adjust windage and spread more or less to adjust elevation. If you try to muscle your rifle to the target, the outcome is seldom good.

2) trigger squeeze. You must squeeze the trigger to get an accurate shot. Sometimes we wait until the sight picture looks good and jerk the trigger, or snatch the shot. That is usually a bad shot. Accept the wobble, and squeeze. I've been primarily focusing on the target (not as much on cross hairs) and concentrating on the trigger squeeze.

Both of those things seem to help me.

 

[bihj]

And use a sling...

 

[Klint Beastwood]

50 yards, AR-15 with scope, standing up, no sling.

I was trying to hit all bullseyes. You can pretty much see how I quickly got tired after the center spot... not a single hit in any of the remaining bullseyes.

I guess I did not hold the gun right. My left (supporting) jabs got tired pretty quickly and started to wander... and I am not at all dainty.

So, what’s the right way to do this ?

705FF787-FB57-407E-B197-94AA1806541A

• Wanderling
• Mar 26, 2018

50 yds scoped AR15 offhand Wolf Gold .223

Do you do tobacco?

 

[Art Eatman]

Back in 1977 I began working out with a barbell set. Worked up to ten reps of each exercise with 100 pounds. My offhand shooting improved quite positively.

Drawback: Friends kept wanting me to help move furniture and appliances.

 

[MrBorland]

Good advice given here, but I'll add a few thoughts...

Shoot one round at a time. Fatigue can quickly set in if you shoot multiple rounds in succession, at which point, you'll start rushing your shots and putting your mind where it shouldn't be. When shooting while standing in High Power Rifle competition, it's one shot at a time. Get a good position and sight picture, release the shot, lower the rifle, reload, get your head together if need be, and repeat.

Scope - too much magnification isn't a good thing. I wouldn't add any more magnification than you need to see the bull. At 50 yards, that means very little (maybe even none). More than that amplifies your "wobble" and strongly tempts you to time the shot (a fool's errand), yank the trigger, and/or put your mental focus on how unsteady you think you are.

Use an appropriate target. IIRC, the High Power Rifle target used in the standing portion has a black bull that's about 6.5MOA. At 50 yards, that'd obviously be a little over 3". And, importantly, the black bull should be contrasted against a light background. Your target lacks that contrast, which makes life tougher than it should.

As mentioned, use your bones (not your muscles) to support yourself. Whether you use a shooting coat or not, try assuming a position like in the pics above. Note how the shooter leans back, gets the buttstock high, and supports the rifle via his weak arm rested on his hip or side.

As far as a sling, use it if it gives you a mental boost, but a sling is generally meant to be used when your support arm is supported by something solid, as in the prone or sitting positions.

Finally, be patient with yourself and understand what you're trying to do isn't easy and takes a lot of practice. A regulation-sized bull might look and sound easy to hit offhand, but it ain't. Experienced and/or Master-level HP shooters put all their rounds in there, but they've got a lot of practice behind them. For most shooters, it's quite a challenge.

 

[The Earl o Sammich]

Are you shooting in competition or just want to be a better shooter?

Keep the rifle close to your chest and grasp the hand guard close in, the rifle's balance should hold it into your shoulder. Look at the photo Gunny' posted. Either way you put your left hand, notice that it is right up to the receiver. And as mentioned get your natural point of aim. I did quite well in competitions off hand by practicing this. Get your rifle and MAKE SURE IT IS NOT LOADED AND THERE IS NO AMMUNITION NEAR YOU! Take a black thumb tack and place it on a white wall. Step back 15 feet or so. Feet shoulder width apart, rifle to your shoulder, focus on the tack, close your eyes and aim the rifle at the tack. Open your eyes. With out moving the rifle adjust your stance, your grip, your position until the sights are on the tack. Don't hold the rifle up for more than 4 or 5 breath cycles. Remember breathing. Take a couple of full breaths as you get the rifle up to your shoulder and on target and press the trigger towards your shoulder as you get to the bottom of your third breath. Don't hold your breath. Keep breathing and try for the bottom of the next cycle. If you don't get it by the 5th breath relax let the rifle down and rest for a few seconds.

Once you get this down start dry fire practice on that thumb tack. Do this for just 20 minutes twice a day and watch your hits climb.

 

[Poper]

Are you shooting in competition or just want to be a better shooter?

Keep the rifle close to your chest and gasp the hand guard close in the rifle's balance should hold it into your shoulder. Look at the photo Gunny' posted. Either way you put your left hand, notice that it is right up to the receiver. And as mentioned get your natural point of aim. I did quite well in competitions off hand by practicing this. Get your rifle and MAKE SURE IT IS NOT LOADED AND THERE IS NO AMMUNITION NEAR YOU! Take a black thumb tack and place it on a white wall. Step back 15 feet or so. Feet shoulder width apart, rifle to your shoulder, focus on the tack, close you eyes and aim the rifle at the tack. Open your eyes. With out moving the rifle adjust your stance, your grip, you position until the sights are on the tack. Don't hold the rifle up for more than 4 or 5 breath cycles. Remeber breathinging. take a coupe of full breaths as you get the rifle on target and press the trigger towards your shoulder as you get to the bottom of you thrid breath. Don't hild your breath. Keep breathing and try for the bottom of the next cycle. If you don't get by the 5th breath relax let the rifle down and rest for a few second.

Once you get this down start dry fire practice on that thumb tack. Do this for just 20 minutes twice a day and watch your hits climb.

Excellent practice advise, this!

From a high power silhouette competitor's viewpoint, I would add: 1) Prior to shouldering the rifle for practice dry fire, (or live fire) take three deep breaths letting them out completely. This will purge your lungs and provide a steadier, smoother breathing cycle during the shot.
2) your "natural point of aim" cannot be over emphasized. Find it, know it and practice it until it becomes automatic in your setup.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The reverse offhand grip is a holdover from the days of the M1. If you held the rifle normally, with your hand at the balance of the piece, you'd get smacked by the operating rod.

There are three keys to offhand shooting.

First, hold the rifle at the balance of the piece -- with your left hand touching the trigger guard, if you can.

Second, try for a piece of the bullseye. Don't try to put every shot in the center, just increase your squeeze when the sights are on target.

Third, buy .22 ammo by the case, and shoot it all up.

 

[jmr40]

Dry fire practice is your friend. You can get in hundreds of thousands of rounds of practice in your own home without costing you a dime for ammo and range visits. Since there is no recoil you can concentrate on keeping the sights on a target during and after pulling the trigger.

 

[bluejeans]

50 yards, AR-15 with scope, standing up, no sling.

The advice thus far (edit: forgot to refresh page this morning... there are some great posts above ) is mostly along the lines of what competition target shooters do... good for scores but hard to master and no good if you might need to transition between targets and since you’re shooting an ar15 I’m guessing you might be.

I’m going to offer some advice based on what I’ve learned shooting light carbines. This is not a target stance... does not require a 17lb rifle.

Keep your shallow bladed stance
Shorten you 6-position stock as much as you can. Nose to the charging handle. Keeps to weight in close increasing control and lessening fatigue.
Move you support hand close in on the hand rail.
Elbows down.. no chicken winging
Turn you scope power down...
Now gentle lean forward and wrap yourself around the gun
Dry fire practice LOTS. Know your trigger.
Shoot LOTS. I never found 22 practice to help.. my brain knows it not the same thing. Just relax and shoot half a case of ammo and watch what you and your gun do
Once you know you trigger well, if your crosshairs are still bouncing around you might try a slow, steady drift toward the bullseye from about 8” out.. keep you rate of travel steady with the slack already out of the trigger and press just as your crosshairs enter the black

 

[doubleh]

Build a pile of bones. The better you can support yourself the steadier you will be. See if you can find some youtube videos to show you how to steady yourself in the offhand position.

You said you became fatigued. Exercise to build and tone muscles will help greatly with that. Not fun but the results will surprise you. Cut out caffeine if it affects you. It causes tremors in some people.

 

[MrBorland]

The advice thus far is mostly along the lines of what competition target shooters do... good for scores but hard to master and no good if you might need to transition between targets and since you’re shooting an ar15 I’m guessing you might be.

JMO, but @Wanderling seems to be trying to shoot teeny little bullseyes (and didn't say anything about transitions); so whether it's in the context of formal competition or not, the techniques of target shooters seem apropos. If @Wanderling is interested in something else, he should, by all means, clarify.

Keep your shallow bladed stance
Shorten you 6-position stock as much as you can. Nose to the charging handle. Keeps to weight in close increasing control and lessening fatigue.
Move you support hand close in on the hand rail.
Elbows down.. no chicken winging
Turn you scope power down...
Now gentle lean forward and wrap yourself around the gun
Dry fire practice LOTS. Know your trigger.
Shoot LOTS.

At any rate, except for the "lean forward" advice, this is pretty much in line with what others have suggested, so when it comes to hitting what you need to hit while standing up, the techniques are pretty universal.

 

[bluejeans]

@MrBorland i had this page loaded yeasterday evening and hadn’t seen the more recent posts when I replied.. there has been good advice since which makes much of what I said superfluous. I will edit.

I do think that the OP’s stated weapon is indicative of the type of shooting he intends to do and suggesting he add weights to it is misdirection (not you, I know)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'll go against some advice from others:

1. What kind of shooting you intend doesn't matter. Learn to shoot paper targets from the standing position, and you can easily transition to all other shooting styles.

2. Shooting a .22 certainly does improve your shooting -- because it's cheaper than centerfire shooting and it provides the classic learning environment. You try, you see the effect, and you try again.

 

[cp1969]

So, what’s the right way to do this ?

Start close. From the looks of the target, I don't see anything resembling individual groups.

Pick a group size that you wish to hold.
Get close, REALLY close to the target. How close will depend on what group size you chose.
When you can hold all your shots within that size group, back up 5 yards and start over.
Repeat until happy.

 

[illinoisburt]

Start close. From the looks of the target, I don't see anything resembling individual groups.

Pick a group size that you wish to hold.
Get close, REALLY close to the target. How close will depend on what group size you chose.
When you can hold all your shots within that size group, back up 5 yards and start over.
Repeat until happy.

It always amazes me how much people fight this great piece of advise! Nothing against dry firing to build technique, but only goes so far. I prefer to start folks on volume of fire with full size airguns at shorter ranges just because they can build good shooting form and trigger control with daily shooting. I do realize this may not be possible in all areas (spouses, limited space, and sometimes laws are weird). My advise would be invest a little in a CO2 gun which closely matches size/weight/shape of your rifle and shoot it every day in a basement or other safe local near home. Starting at 20-30 feet and work backwards until you run out of room. You will be amazed what can be accomplished in a couple months compared to less frequent rifle range visits for less than the cost of a couple hundred hundred rifle rounds.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you want to learn to shoot, there is no substitute for actual shooting -- and the more you shoot the better you get. A .22 or an air gun is the ideal training rifle.

 

[Wanderling]

Do you do tobacco?

Nope.

Back in 1977 I began working out with a barbell set. Worked up to ten reps of each exercise with 100 pounds. My offhand shooting improved quite positively.

Drawback: Friends kept wanting me to help move furniture and appliances.

I have decent muscle tone, but it never hurts to build it up.

Are you shooting in competition or just want to be a better shooter?

Just for myself.

Build a pile of bones. The better you can support yourself the steadier you will be. See if you can find some youtube videos to show you how to steady yourself in the offhand position.

You said you became fatigued. Exercise to build and tone muscles will help greatly with that. Not fun but the results will surprise you. Cut out caffeine if it affects you. It causes tremors in some people.

I think this was my biggest problem. I just let my left arm "float" with no support, relying on muscle strength alone.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Nope.



I have decent muscle tone, but it never hurts to build it up.



Just for myself.



I think this was my biggest problem. I just let my left arm "float" with no support, relying on muscle strength alone.

Looks like the issue was already identified but I only asked because caffeine and or tobacco (stimulants in general) causes floating in groupings often enough.

I dip constantly, when I haven’t had a pinch in awhile, my precision kind of becomes harder to control on a musculoskeletal level, especially off hand type shooting. That and I become a hateful dude.

 

[Jenrick]

I'll second an air rifle. For a one time investment of couple hundred dollars, your will have a rifle that is FAR more accurate then almost all of us are. I have a Daisy Avanti 753, which is a "sporter" class air rifle and a Walther LGM-2 which is an "precision" air rifle. The Walther LGM-2 is the same model that won actual gold medals back in the 90's at the Olympics, it will stack pellets on top of each other (I mean literal same hole accuracy) from a rest or vice, the 753 is no slouch and will only have a slightly larger group when rested or viced. Air Rifle is shot competitively at 10m, so in a normal backyard you can easily practice. Now Air Rifle shooting has nothing to do with calling the wind like High Power can, but it will absolutely make you a better offhand shooter. After the initial investment, it is about the cheapest shooting you can do. Just in case your wondering the National records for Juniors is a 192 out of 200 (20 shots) for sporter, and 200-19X for precision, on a target where the 9 ring is the diameter of the pellet, and the X is literally the size of the period at the end of this sentence.

-Jenrick