Trigger control and sight alignment.

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d2wing

d2wing

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I have read many times that one should pull the trigger very slowly and when it goes off it is a surprise. Really. If this is so, why are fast lock times important.
In my opinion, one should be in a stabile position, have a firm grip on the firearm so it doesn't move when you pull the trigger, align your sights and squeeze or pull the trigger immediately when you get the sight picture you want before wobble sets in. Some shooters have commented on how quickly I get accurate shots off. I take the shot when it looks right and do not think about it or hesitate.
I have watched many shooters that take forever to get their shots off and don't shoot as well as I do. I wonder if they are going to turn blue from holding their breath. I admit to times when getting the proper sight picture takes longer than I like. When your gun goes off it shouldn't be delayed or a surprise. It should go off immediately when you are on target.
Just something I have observed.
 
d2wing said:
I have read many times that one should pull the trigger very slowly and when it goes off it is a surprise
Click to expand...

I only do this to see if the gun is shooting where it's supposed to and not me pulling the shot.
It's always me.

A snap cap in the mix will show it better though, no doubt it's you when it takes a nose dive on click, no bang.
 
When it comes to shooting I hate the word “squeeze.” It means “to exert pressure especially on opposite sides of.” Since the trigger only moves in one direction to fire then gun a shooter is not squeezing. If you were the trigger would not move. A shooter is pulling the trigger, that is, “to exert force upon so as to cause or tend to cause motion toward the force.”

When I trained on a 1911 in the Corps we were told to pull the trigger with one continuous quick stroke. Proper grip is important to good trigger operation because a from grip helps a new shooter to feel confident when pulling the trigger. On the other hand if you pull to slowly the likelihood is that you will jerk the trigger and that means jerk the gun. Let’s abolish the “squeeze” nonsense.
 
dweis said:
When it comes to shooting I hate the word “squeeze.” It means “to exert pressure especially on opposite sides of.” Since the trigger only moves in one direction to fire then gun a shooter is not squeezing. If you were the trigger would not move. A shooter is pulling the trigger, that is, “to exert force upon so as to cause or tend to cause motion toward the force.”

When I trained on a 1911 in the Corps we were told to pull the trigger with one continuous quick stroke. Proper grip is important to good trigger operation because a from grip helps a new shooter to feel confident when pulling the trigger. On the other hand if you pull to slowly the likelihood is that you will jerk the trigger and that means jerk the gun. Let’s abolish the “squeeze” nonsense.
Click to expand...
Good point. I agree.
 
I think focusing on the trigger is the crux of the problem. Your focus should be on your sight alignment and/or the target, not the trigger.

Its worrying about what the trigger is doing is what causes the trouble.
 
Chamber a laser bore sight and dryfire.

Focus on the laser dot projected on the target and ignore the sights.

Learn to work the trigger without moving the dot.

Practice by challenging yourself how quickly you can work the trigger and keep the dot steady on the target.

You can also do the same thing with a cheap laser sight from Amazon.
 
when dry firing, hold a low aim so you can see the front sight really well, and there should be no up/down or side movement when you pull the trigger. I tend to pull to the left a bit becuase I have big hands and my finger tends to go through the guard to the second nuckle. if I really try to do it correctly, I have to modify my grip, squeeze between my hands more, and I'm certainly pressing the trigger backward, and not pulling it. if I'm practicing - I can tell this makes follow up shots much faster and easier. I also like the natural point of aim, close your eyes and bring up to hold for a sight picture. Open eyes and see if you are high or low, left right whatever. Then adjust this by moving your feat ever so slightly that your actual stance matches your natural point of aim. I have to move my rear/right foot forward about 4 inches and lean in a bit.

what your referencing is just one - technique, to work through flinching issues. for me keeping both eyes open helps prevent flinching, also shooting a bunch of .22 or just dry firing. I don't do the excercise you are referencing - you're going to flinch, you have to catch the recoil and that is a flinch, so - what they are talking about is just one way to recognize and try to train out a bad flinch, but - there are other ways to do it I think are better, or worked for me. I'm not really flinching until I've just shot too much, and start to blink after every shot. Really, then it is just fatigue and I should take a break or pack it it.
 
Shawn I bought one of the laser bullets. when I started shooting carry optics. I got it more to help me "find the dot" on the draw. I have found it can actually cause some people to get worse with trigger control. they keep chasing the dot, get frustrated and give up.
 
jak67429 said:
Shawn I bought one of the laser bullets. when I started shooting carry optics. I got it more to help me "find the dot" on the draw. I have found it can actually cause some people to get worse with trigger control. they keep chasing the dot, get frustrated and give up.
Click to expand...
Focus on the dot on the target, not the sights. Just ignore the sights.

(You already know how to align the sights and acquire a proper sight picture.)

With the laser bore sight (or laser sight) you're learning to work the trigger. It allows you to focus on the trigger instead of splitting your attention between the trigger and the sights.

(Edited to add: A laser bore sight is constant "on", whereas a laser cartridge only turns on momentarily when it's struck by the firing pin. Don't use a laser cartridge for this training exercise, use a laser bore sight or a laser sight.)
 
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Shawn Dodson said:
Focus on the dot on the target, not the sights. Just ignore the sights.

(You already know how to align the sights and acquire a proper sight picture.)

With the laser bore sight (or laser sight) you're learning to work the trigger. It allows you to focus on the trigger instead of splitting your attention between the trigger and the sights.
Click to expand...
Bottom right, my answer to this was to either lose the irons entirely or to use the folding sight set as an emergency use only. The irons were distracting me to the point that my groups were a pattern. But when I was only focusing on the dot, amazing one jagged holes. A friend decided to fix the same problem I had was to get sights that were barely seen above the housing.

0JCy5tn.jpg


Dear Air folding sights if anyone is wanting to ask. They don't fall back down under recoil and have a spring tension.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
Focus on the dot on the target, not the sights. Just ignore the sights.

(You already know how to align the sights and acquire a proper sight picture.)

With the laser bore sight (or laser sight) you're learning to work the trigger. It allows you to focus on the trigger instead of splitting your attention between the trigger and the sights.
Click to expand...
This is where I think you benefit greatly by learning to shoot a DA revolver, DAO. You learn to smoothly stroke the trigger while not thinking about it and the focus is on maintaining your sight alignment as you do.

If you're going to put your focus anywhere, it should be on the sights, not the trigger. If your focus is on the trigger, its not on the sights and/or target, and the sights direct where the round goes, not the trigger.
 
trackskippy said:
This is where I think you benefit greatly by learning to shoot a DA revolver, DAO. You learn to smoothly stroke the trigger while not thinking about it and the focus is on maintaining your sight alignment as you do.

If you're going to put your focus anywhere, it should be on the sights, not the trigger. If your focus is on the trigger, its not on the sights and/or target, and the sights direct where the round goes, not the trigger.
Click to expand...
You have to learn to work the trigger without moving the gun.

A laser bore sight/laser sight allows you to focus all your attention on working the trigger instead of splitting your attention between sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control. This is the method I use with new shooters and it works very well in preventing common errors (jerking, milking, heeling, thumbing, pushing, etc...) because the feedback it provides amplifies small movements of the pistol. It's an efficient way to learn to work the trigger. When the student successfully learns to quickly work the trigger without moving the gun, then we progress to dryfiring with sight alignment, and then sight picture with a target. It separates and isolates the mechanics of each aspect of aiming and trigger manipulation.
 
I see what youre saying, and its basically the same thing, I just learned to do it with the sights, which keeps the focus on the sights.

I just think putting emphasis on the trigger is a bad thing, and so much the cause of people insisting on needing custom trigger jobs on what seems to be everything. I guess a lot of that is marketing too, playing on the gullible.
 
Bullseye Pistol is the most demanding sport for a perfect trigger pull, and no flinch, that I have participated in. And yet, I have asked several shooters with President 100 patches, and they claim they know when the trigger is going off.

Even though I diligently try not to know when the trigger will release, probably 99 times out of a hundred, I still flinch. Occasionally the trigger does surprise me by releasing and where the shot goes, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Bad being my normal state of affairs.

Other shooters have offered a drop technique. They start trigger pressure at the top of the bull and let the dot drop through the bull. Somewhere before the bottom the pistol goes off and they don't know when. Some of these guys have roll triggers, they can feel a psuedo second stage and that helps them.

The 50 yard bullseye target is just impossible, I don't think I have seen a clean on it, with a 45 ACP. A 98 or 99 is quite the achievement. I am happy to be in the 80's.

hi4HdlC.jpg


amazing the number of internet experts who can do this on demand

okgU2U3.jpg



I have given up trying a delicate trigger release in the timed and rapid fire stages. There, it is total monster grip, resolute hard body, expecting the pain of recoil, and pressing the trigger but not smashing the trigger. I totally know when the trigger is going off. Smashing the trigger always leads to low shots, can't be helped or stopped. My results timed and rapid fire are better with this desperation technique.

Smallbore prone, oh, I absolutely have to not anticipate the shot. This is one demanding sport. When I anticipate the shot, I push into the gun, and I see a 11 OC shot out in the white. Hard to believe that a person will flinch firing a 10lb 22lr, but there it is. Hitting the trigger too hard makes a low shot. I take up that trigger, add pressure, and try not to know when it will go off. Mostly I try to control the flinch reflex, by being determined not to flinch. I try to relax, be in la la land at the moment of trigger release, and let the rifle recoil, and observe what the recoil looks like. I can mentally distance myself from the firing event in smallbore, much better than I can with a pistol. I have more time, I have a very rigid position. If the sights go up and down upon firing, then everything is good. If the sights make a circle after firing, the bullet is going in the direction of the large part of that circle.
 
As far as training, As a certified instructor I started students with an air pistol shooting off hand to learn trigger control and sight alignment. Pulling the trigger without moving the sights is basic to all shooting. Stance, eye dominance and focus on target are all part of basic instruction. Repeated training with air rifles also helps with basic without flinch. Going straight to firearms with beginners often results in bad habits.
 
Slamfire said:
Bullseye Pistol is the most demanding sport for a perfect trigger pull, and no flinch, that I have participated in. And yet, I have asked several shooters with President 100 patches, and they claim they know when the trigger is going off.

Even though I diligently try not to know when the trigger will release, probably 99 times out of a hundred, I still flinch. Occasionally the trigger does surprise me by releasing and where the shot goes, sometimes good, sometimes bad. Bad being my normal state

I have given up trying a delicate trigger release in the timed and rapid fire stages. There, it is total monster grip, resolute hard body, expecting the pain of recoil, and pressing the trigger but not smashing the trigger. I totally know when the trigger is going off. Smashing the trigger always leads to low shots, can't be helped or stopped. My results timed and rapid fire are better with this desperation technique.

Smallbore prone, oh, I absolutely have to not anticipate the shot. This is one demanding sport. When I anticipate the shot, I push into the gun, and I see a 11 OC shot out in the white. Hard to believe that a person will flinch firing a 10lb 22lr, but there it is. Hitting the trigger too hard makes a low shot. I take up that trigger, add pressure, and try not to know when it will go off. Mostly I try to control the flinch reflex, by being determined not to flinch. I try to relax, be in la la land at the moment of trigger release, and let the rifle recoil, and observe what the recoil looks like. I can mentally distance myself from the firing event in smallbore, much better than I can with a pistol. I have more time, I have a very rigid position. If the sights go up and down upon firing, then everything is good. If the sights make a circle after firing, the bullet is going in the direction of the large part of that circle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that informative post. As I stated in my post, as an instructor I had my students; learn sight alignment and trigger control by shooting an air pistol. I think practicing that way might help you relearn.
I think you developed bad habits at the onset that are difficult to overcome. I don't agree with the slow trigger pull until it breaks because the anticipation is still there and it just gives more time to get off target. Shooting pistol is really hard. I have won some matches but it requires strength to hold the pistol steady while you pull the trigger, and a flinch really hurts. I no longer have the hand strength.
 
d2wing said:
Thanks for that informative post. As I stated in my post, as an instructor I had my students; learn sight alignment and trigger control by shooting an air pistol. I think practicing that way might help you relearn.
I think you developed bad habits at the onset that are difficult to overcome. I don't agree with the slow trigger pull until it breaks because the anticipation is still there and it just gives more time to get off target. Shooting pistol is really hard. I have won some matches but it requires strength to hold the pistol steady while you pull the trigger, and a flinch really hurts. I no longer have the hand strength.
Click to expand...

I am shooting expert class with a 22 LR, it all goes to hell in a handbasket when I shift to 45 ACP. The body don't like it.

And I really ought to lift weights, was doing it for awhile. Now I am working on the legs, found if you don't use them, you lose them. Building up the back of the legs has really improved my walk.
 
Slamfire said:
I am shooting expert class with a 22 LR, it all goes to hell in a handbasket when I shift to 45 ACP. The body don't like it.

And I really ought to lift weights, was doing it for awhile. Now I am working on the legs, found if you don't use them, you lose them. Building up the back of the legs has really improved my walk.
Click to expand...
pushups and squats help me toughen up for shooting the 45 bores.

luck,

murf
 
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