Trolls! another rant about this community by Zundy

[Zundfolge]

Lately it seems as though there have been several people show up in these forums, asking questions but clearly coming from the VPC/Brady/Anti-Gun side of the fence.

These people's threads are usually responded to with a bit of vitriol and the occasionally amusing "Don't Feed The Trolls" graphic.



Who cares if these people are indeed "Trolls"?

The facts are on our side and we are The High Road ... we should act like the name of this forum means something and engage these people in polite debate driven by the truth.


Certainly some of these people come here to poke the hornets nest with a stick, but there are many who come here who truly want to see "the other side" of the argument ... these people have a great likelihood of being "turned" to our side.

In addition, I understand that these same debates over and over again get tedious, but there's several thousand of us here so if you get tired of these debates, stay away from them and let another High Roader step up to the plate (if nothing else, these debates on our own turf are an excellent place to cut one's teeth and prepare one for gun rights debates on other forums.)


I may have the wrong member in mind, but IIRC Pax (one of our illustrious moderators now) came to either this forum or TFL believing the anti's dogma and NOW look at her ... she's moderating one of the more important gun forums on the internet and she has her own web site up to educate women on shooting ... she does more to further the cause of RKBA in a single day than many of us do all year!


How many other Pax's have we turned away because of the knee-jerk "OMG ITS A TROLL!!" responses?

 

[Old Dog]

Concur. "Polite debate driven by the truth." Yes.

I'm disheartened by the responses in those threads that mainly carry the implication, "Your opinion is not important to me" toward the trolling poster in question ... Or the message, "You wouldn't understand, since you don't now like guns and you're not a member of the gun culture."

Some of the responses to the thread started by "Lew Rodd" seem to indicate a total disdain toward anyone who doesn't share our point of view, and definitely indicate a lack of willingness to even attempt to advance, with calm reasoning and maturity, the history, the basis behind, and the necessity, for the right to keep and bear arms movement.

These types of responses do nothing whatsoever to advance our cause, and certainly, go a long ways in making us (continue) to look like an illogical bunch of knuckle-draggers.

Hey Rodd, go peddle your garbage somewhere else

Way to go, that's intelligent debate.

Anyone with sense knows that it isn't.

Always tell the OP that he has no sense. Good tactic.

You would have better luck trying to teach my dog spanish than getting people like this to understand the truth.

Ah, and the clever insults work well in convincing folks we're right, too ...

 

[hso]

Zundfogle,

I agree that even the Trolls are a chance to show undecided lurkers that the facts are on our side. We should never sink to their level.

BTW, as far as I can tell, all the way back to 2000 on TFL, Pax was pro RKBA.

 

[220_Swift]

Ah, and the clever insults work well in convincing folks we're right, too ...

If you were to re-read my post you would learn that I was not directing my comment to the original poster, but to another member here. It was not meant to be an insult to the OP, simply pointing out the obvious. This guy is not here to learn. He is also not a "fence sitter" trying to figure things out for himself. His mind is made up, and I was pointing that out.

 

[AJAX22]

We won't win any converts preaching to the choir.

Educate people while respecting them and logic will always prevail.

If we overreact or treat people poorly, we will just reinforce there misconceptions.

Someone who is vocally anti gun, once educated and informed, will probably be vocally pro gun.

Invite them out to a sporting shoot, engage them in a FRIENDLY debate.

But treat them with respect. This is the High Road

 

[JohnBT]

I think most of us are willing to discuss, or even debate, the facts and issues with anyone who comes forward with something more than a cut-and-paste blurb followed by a cut-and-paste question.

Trying to debate a hardcore gungrabbing troll is, IMNSHO, a nearly complete waste of time.

IOW, he did not ask "Why do all of you like guns since they're so dangerous?"

John

 

[AJAX22]

The manner in which we conduct ourselves, regardless of the debate being pointless or not, has an impact.

Let us keep emotion from effecting our actions.

 

[mbs357]

I agree.
If we just meet whatever argument the troll has in a clear, polite, and knowledgable way...then what can the troll do? Nothing...except keep on trolling calmly or get banned.
Editted to add: I forgot to say this, but Ajax reminded me. The more High Roadish we act the better image we create for us.
If a troll comes to this forum and makes a post that causes us to start yelling and he links that post to his fence sitting friends, what will those fence sitters think?
We've got to stop giving these people reasons to call us lunatics.

 

[thumbody]

While a thread starter may be a troll who's mind will never be changed someone who accidentally finds this sight may be teachable. So a rude impolite answer will reenforce the trolls feelings towards gunowners, and sour the attitude of the new reader who may be open to learning.

 

[Stickjockey]

Trying to debate a hardcore gungrabbing troll is, IMNSHO, a nearly complete waste of time.

No, it isn't. A huge part of the reason I signed up here was that, contrary to many places on the web, this is (was?) a place of reasoned, well thought-out debate and discussion whether "preaching to hte choir" or dealing with the other side. I signed up and have learned a load of stuff, tools I wouldn't have had otherwise. Helping our side get better at promoting our view falls smack in the middle of "RKBA evangelism", yes?

Then there's the recurring phenomenon of the "I'm an anti with questions"-type thread. This kind of thing does happen occasionally, and if one has the chutzpah to actually post and start a dialogue, how many more are out there that just lurk, learning in spite of themselves?

 

[fletcher]

Always tell the OP that he has no sense. Good tactic.

No offense, but please read the context of my reply to his comment. I did not tell him he had no sense, as he concurred with my statement.

 

[rbernie]

but there are many who come here who truly want to see "the other side" of the argument ... these people have a great likelihood of being "turned" to our side.

I disgree with this premise as it relates to recent events. I think that most of us can tell fairly quickly, based upon the manner in which a question is phrased, whether or not a question is sincere or simply a troll. In most cases that I've seen here lately, my judgement was that they were simply trolls.

Having said that, I do not disagree that even trolls should be dealt with politely. But you cannot expect me to take the time to rationally engage in discourse with these trolls when every fibre of my being is telling me that it's an abject waste of time.

My response is to simply ignore them, since I am not going to waste my time giving them the gratification of the attention that they so desperately crave.

 

[sm]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2468116&postcount=30

When all you have are lemons - make lemonade.

Tyranny, anti-guns and such : we can make lemonade with your lemons.

 

[mbs357]

I think a better saying is...
When life throws you lemons, genetically alter the tree to produce a super lemon and effectively take over the lemonade industry.

 

[Old Dog]

jrdean and fletcher responded to me

If you were to re-read my post you would learn that I was not directing my comment to the original poster, but to another member here.

No offense, but please read the context of my reply to his comment.

Sorry, guys. See how easy it is to misconstrue remarks, though? In a way, it does validate my position that we should also attempt, amongst ourselves, to keep the sarcasm and thinly-veiled insults -- even those directed to the truly stupid that are not part of the thread -- to a minimum ...

When attempting to educate, it seems better to maintain temperate language and use mature discourse techniques, rather than heavily trowel on the sarcasm and little digs ...

 

[Quo Vadis]

control da troll's

[quote="Zundfolge“]Trolls! another rant -- "OMG ITS A TROLL!!"[/quote]
Do you have to keep pounding on me!

she has her own web site up to educate women

This is one sharp wahine. Educate women? Troll's are sexless - and I will have to read more of her site, for she has good stuffs. Thanks for the link.

 

[Zundfolge]

I think that most of us can tell fairly quickly, based upon the manner in which a question is phrased, whether or not a question is sincere or simply a troll.

One of the main reasons for me starting this thread is that I disagree with that premise.


And even if its true, you're safe here and are not going to get flamed for having a pro-gun position so any troll that wanders into this forum is a good person to hone your debate skills on ... the net is full of trolls and full of places where our beliefs are not welcome. Take your "target practice" where you can comfortably.

 

[NineseveN]

Why should we treat the trolls any better than we treat each other? If you're gonna lock accounts for claiming someone is a troll, then time to start locking them when one calls another person "obtuse", "Rambo" or any other vulgar or non-vulgar derogatory or negative remark, right? Where does the list begin and end?

The fella in question is obviously a troll, calling a spade a spade is not the low road, it's being honest. However, if all one has to offer to the discussion is "you're a troll, shut-up", well, that's not really helpful.

People that think the anti's will accept us if we act like nice folks are somewhat fooling themselves. What happens when they come on over and find out we're just like every other group of human beings, different personalities and different ways of expressing ourselves? Does that make THR like church, on your knees in the pews saying "please" and "thank you" and then going on about your business outside of being greedy, having pre-marital sex and using vulgar language on occasion. This very hypocrisy turns a lot of the thinkers away from such institutions that leave no room for the condition called, well, "acting as human beings act"...the only thing you get with glossing over an image is perhaps a net gain in blind, mindless followers that cannot accept reality as it is and understand some common sense. The battle won't be won by armies of dull voters, it might be won by some smart folks in politics and some key legal battles. It’s not like the homosexuals went on a popularity campaign now did they? Look at how far they’ve moved in regards to their legal struggle. Look at the illegal immigrants as well; I don’t see them pretending to be something they’re honestly not, they’re saying, “we’re here, get used to it”.

I got news, we have plenty of gun owners and guns in this country, more won't help...it's not about guns, it's about control, and short of a revolution, the political tides won't change one bit...they're no longer working for us. I write them anyway, I let my thoughts be known, but I don't delude myself into thinking I'm any further in changing their minds than I was 10 years ago, and I don't think 10 more of me will matter either. Politicians may sway what they say based on polls or their constituents, but never what they do; otherwise, well, things would be rather different in this country.

Having said all that, none of this is an excuse for rabid attacks when the rules prohibit such, but I'd rather not see things get carried away to where merely mentioning that someone is a troll or saying they're being "obtuse" is gonna to get an account locked...that seems, I dunno, a little harsh.

 

[rbernie]

....any troll that wanders into this forum is a good person to hone your debate skills on ... the net is full of trolls and full of places where our beliefs are not welcome. Take your "target practice" where you can comfortably.

Y'all have fun with all that - I have no need to tilt at windmills.

It already takes all the energy that I have to deal with minds that are either open or at least provide the premise of being open, and the ROI is a lot better.

Edited to add:

Don't get me wrong - if y'all have the time and energy to line all this up for folks who're not likely to listen anyway, I think that's SUPERB. Good on ya, as they say.

In short - I respectfully decline Zun's challenge, but am pleased to see that there are others to pick up the slack.

 

[Offwhite]

There are a lot of people who come knowing why they are here & you can tell by their phrasing that they aren't "curious."

 

['Card]

You guys are all making a fundamentally flawed assumption, and it's screwing up your opinions on this.

You are operating under the belief that the trolls are "anti-gun" trolls. That leaves you with two options. Either you can belittle them since you know they are incapable of changing their mind, or you can try to have a rational conversation with them, presumably for the benefit of the silent (lurking) audience.

The problem is that most of the time trolls aren't honestly anti-gun, or pro-gun, or anything-gun, for that matter. Trolls do what they do because it gets a reaction out of people. Trolls are, almost by definition, people who do what they do out of a need for attention, plain and simple. If they wanted attention from an anti-gun forum, they'd be pro-gun. When they come here for their 'fix', they'll be anti-gun. Whatever it takes to stir the pot, get people worked up, and make them respond. The more long-winded, personal, or ugly it gets, the happier the troll will be, and the more likely the troll will be to keep coming back for more.

 

[bosshoff]

Don't be afraid to discuss issues calmly/poitely with trolls

"You would have better luck trying to teach my dog spanish than getting people like this to understand the truth."

F.Y.I. I actually DID teach my dogs Spanish. (I don't know any German )

 

[NineseveN]

ou guys are all making a fundamentally flawed assumption, and it's screwing up your opinions on this.

You are operating under the belief that the trolls are "anti-gun" trolls. That leaves you with two options. Either you can belittle them since you know they are incapable of changing their mind, or you can try to have a rational conversation with them, presumably for the benefit of the silent (lurking) audience.

The problem is that most of the time trolls aren't honestly anti-gun, or pro-gun, or anything-gun, for that matter. Trolls do what they do because it gets a reaction out of people. Trolls are, almost by definition, people who do what they do out of a need for attention, plain and simple. If they wanted attention from an anti-gun forum, they'd be pro-gun. When they come here for their 'fix', they'll be anti-gun. Whatever it takes to stir the pot, get people worked up, and make them respond. The more long-winded, personal, or ugly it gets, the happier the troll will be, and the more likely the troll will be to keep coming back for more.

Then the chorus of "polite discussion may change their minds" is a useless voice, because, as you admit, they're often only anti-gun because it gets a rise out of us...so again...what's the difference? Is it for the fence-sitting lurkers? How do we know they're mostly anti?

 

[hillbilly]

OKay then.

This thread strikes right at something I've been thinking about for quite some time now, but just didn't feel like bring up because of the reaction I figured it would provoke.

That being said, and this thread already being started, here goes.

On the one hand, I'm all for "Taking the High Road" in many, many cases.

However, I confess that I've seen several examples on this board where "Taking the High Road" has been downright counterproductive.

There are anti-gun trolls. There are true fence sitters with questions. There are people with minds that can be changed.

And then there are some juvenile idiots who need to be told to shut up and forced to get the Hell out of Dodge.

I've seen threads on this board go on for pages and pages and pages of "reasoned debate" when what really needed to happen was for the offending party to get the electronic equivalent of a good old fashioned spanking and get banned.

Sometimes, I think that certain "High Roaders" get so caught up in being "High Roaders" that they lose sight of the road.

And choices have consquences.

I personally know of at least three folks who used to be regular posters here, who are no longer regular posters.

The reason?

All three got tired of putting up with juvenile idiocy and for being lectured to by other "High Roaders" for telling the juvenile idiots that they were acting like juvenile idiots.

One man said to me in person, face-to-face, and I quote:

"I left The High Road because I got tired of being told by a bunch of snot-nosed 15-year-olds that the rifle I went through basic training with, and have been deployed to two combat zones with was no good because of this or that reason. And I got tired of being lectured by other members when I called out the little snot-noses."

I want to be completely clear.

In most cases I'm all for "Taking the High Road."

But "Taking the High Road" is not appropriate in every single case. It's just like anything else in life. There are exceptions to just about any idea or response or reaction you can come up with.

I do think there are real, identifiable situations wherein certain types of posts and posters do deserve to be electronically spanked and told what idiots they are being.

That's what I really think.

hillbilly

 

[Mannlicher]

come on Zundy........

The facts are on our side and we are The High Road ... we should act like the name of this forum means something and engage these people in polite debate driven by the truth.

Now really, do you honestly think for a one moment that one of THOSE people actually WANTS to engage in 'polite debate driven by the truth'? That whole concept is anathma to those folks. This is not about debate, its about culture war.

oh yeah, there is a difference guys, between being on 'the high road', and being on your 'high horse'.......