Trouble in the Big D

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95XL883

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Sorry this is so long but it was an intense few minutes.

That this happened in Dallas is insignificant. It could happen in any town, big or small. It’s just where it happened to my wife, my child and I. So please no negative comments about Dallas. (I like Texas. :))

I have three purposes in writing. First is cathartic. Human life is precious, even that of evil doers. They were pushing to a bad end. I was willing to do anything to protect the lives of my wife and child and that included giving my life or taking the lives of the bad guys. (Luckily, they were over-confident, I gained a tactical advantage and they took a few dollars and ran.) I’d make similar decisions in a heartbeat but it is unsettling to realize how deadly the encounter could have been. Second is to improve. While I did a lot of things right, there are things I could have done better. Please feel free to make suggestions. Third, is to give others one more situation to think about and as, I believe it is, Fred says, “The mind is the most important weapon.” So here goes…

My wife, 13 year old son and I were traveling to a wedding. On June 5, we stopped in Dallas for a little in-route sightseeing. We got to the hotel (4 blocks from Dealey Plaza) at 4:30 pm. Rested, ate a little and then my wife wanted our boy to see Dealey Plaza before we went to the museum the next day. It was 5:45 and sunny. Being so close, two plus hours to dark and with the number of people in the West End, we decided to walk.

The first two blocks were very pleasant. I was in condition yellow, just looking for, but not having seen, anything suspicious. Halfway through the third block, the crowd thinned and then I noticed a lone male approaching on our side of the street. Something about him just looked wrong. (In retrospect, it was his walk. It was too purposeful, too deliberate. It didn’t fit somebody leaving work and heading home.) I hesitated, thinking “Do we cut right through the parking lot or risk passing him on the street?” He made the decision for us as he abruptly crossed at angle towards where we would cut right. I looked back at him after we passed. He had a phone out and was texting, but he didn’t turn and follow us. We continued on and the crowd thinned so that we were alone when we got to the corner. As soon as we got to the corner we were approached by another man. His approach immediately put me on guard. He came directly for us and started talking. I immediately recognized a hustler’s pattern. He could be trying to just con us for “tour guide” services or he could be setting us up. I put myself between him and my family. A quick glance over my shoulder revealed no one coming. A scan of the area showed no one around, but this guy came out of nowhere. His approach and instant conversation seemed like he knew we were coming before he saw us. I remembered the other guy texting and wondered if it was a setup.

He talked like it was a tour guide services con but there was an edge in his voice that concerned me and then he said the alarming phrase “I know where the secret tunnel is that the policeman who really shot JFK used. I’ll take you to it.” My immediate thought was “You slime. Do you really think I’m letting you lead us to some secluded spot? How do I disengage?”

He had approached too fast for me to raise a hand and tell him to keep his distance. At this point, I suspected he was a predator and very dangerous. How do I protect my family? If I tell him no thanks or buzz off, I suspected a weapon would be out in a flash and I could only feel another accomplice. (Paranoid maybe, but I wasn’t going to take chances with my wife and child.) I smiled and said “Really? Well, we’re taking our boy to see Dealey Plaza. We want him to get a feel for the turn and the grassy knoll and the path of the motorcade.”

“Sure” he responded. “I’ll take you there first.” I looked around and saw no one within a block. I kept an eye on him and was relieved as he went back into his “tour guide” patter. I smiled. Only one more block to Dealey Plaza and the crowd. Still I watched his hands, looked carefully for somebody hiding along that last block and listened. As he turned to cross the street, I heard him mutter “Whitey!” He quickly apologized claiming to be talking about the white cross now signal but the apology was hollow. The exclamation was venomous. “Interesting”, I thought and smiled to put him at ease thinking “Just get to Dealey Plaza and be among all those people. There I can turn the advantage.”

That one block was a nervous walk. “How do I get my gun if necessary? Where’s the trap? Does he have accomplices? Thank God, he’s continuing that annoying patter and river of lies? He’s trying to get me to relax. No way, you are 56. Your skin has no wrinkles. You might be 25. I’m glad he talks with his hands.” Still I saw no one yet and kept suspecting this guy was very dangerous and probably not alone. “How do I disengage without provoking a fight? When he ups the stakes, I’ll have to be first on my gun. He is much younger and quicker than I. And he moves fast when he decides to act. Good, he thinks I’m buffaloed. That he can lead me anywhere. Stay ready, Greg. Your wife and child depend on it.”

Relieved at reaching Dealey Plaza and finding it crowded with people, I relaxed a little but still watched him carefully. I continued to smile and announced “We’re going to where the motorcade was when Kennedy was shot.” He didn’t seem to pick up that I was directing our path. He kept up his patter. As we crossed I noticed him acknowledge the paper vendor. “Interesting. What’s his part in this? He’s seated. Hmmm? Keep an eye on him. His hands are still out. When will I get my chance to disengage?”

We proceeded on the sidewalk close to the spot where the last bullet hit Kennedy. There were a lot of tourists about. “Good, he won’t get too violent here” I thought. There was one other guy getting a “tour guide” con. “Be careful, you don’t know him. At least you don’t look like you may have much money on you.” Our guy continued his patter. I glanced around. More thoughts, “That guy in the blue shirt and ball cap near the vendor is way out of place. He’s no tourist. I bet he’s in with this guy.”

Then he made his pitch. “Kennedy was really killed by a Dallas policeman. No way could Oswald fire three shots in five seconds with a crappy rifle. The policeman was on the other side of the plaza, dropped into a secret tunnel by that walk under the bridge, came out on this side and shot Kennedy with his revolver. Let’s go see the tunnel.”

I smiled, “We’re not going to the tunnel.”

He responded, “You have to. I have lots of friends here. You don’t want to be with them. There’s one now, the guy with the blue shirt.” I had kept myself between him and my wife and child. He had to step around and towards me to point at the blue shirt. His tone was now a little intimidating. I suspected he might grab my wife’s purse and run. I thought, “Get my hand on my weapon now but don’t pull it. Wait for him to make a blatantly aggressive move. Watch for a hand to his pocket and what comes out.”

My wife and child fell for the pointing and turned. He looked at me and realized I was staring straight at him. “I’ve got lots of friends around here” he repeated, this time with a little snarl and still pointing. I leaned forward a little, no smile, he hadn’t seen my hand under my shirt. I had a firm grip on my SR9 and loosened it slightly from its holster. “I’ve got my friend with me too” I responded. I was watching for a quick aggressive move. If necessary, I wouldn’t try to clear my shirt. We were very close. His eyes flashed to my right hand and rage erupted in his face. “Yep, he is very dangerous” I thought. Be ready he might move quickly. I clicked the safety off.

I pushed forward a little more and almost snarled “We’re not going anywhere with you. We’re done here. Leave us alone.” “You owe me a $100!” he exclaimed his eyes still raging. “You better settle for $10” I replied as I held up a mashed bill in my left hand. (I had gotten it from my pocket during that one block walk. I didn’t want him to see how much money I had. I consciously did it so nobody noticed. I wanted some surprise other than my gun.) The $10 surprise seemed to throw him off a little. “I’ve got to split with (short pause) the museum. That’s not enough.”

Calmly I asked, “Julie, do you have a $10?” I could hear her open her purse. “Why didn’t you just say no” I thought. To be fair, things were happening fast and she was just a little behind. I watched him closely in case he lunged for her. “I’ve just got a $20.” “Dammit. You’ve got a lot more than that and I don’t want him to see it” I thought. With my left hand I snatched the $20 she was pulling out, concerned that I had to take my eyes from him for a second.

“$30 is all there is. I suggest you take it.” It’s strange how time slows down at points. I thought that sounded familiar. He snatched the $30 and stormed off. I moved my wife and child up the knoll and into a crowd of tourists. I turned to scan the area. He and blue shirt were both gone. I took my hand from under my shirt. (I forgot to click the safety back on. :eek:) It was just a little past 6.

Writing this has been cathartic. My wife was pissed and has been taking it out on me, complaining about the $30. I’m not happy about losing $30 but I think we came out pretty well. One or more people could have died. We could have lost a lot of cash and credit cards. We’ve been talking about it; she’s calming down and getting more appreciative of what I was willing to do to protect her and our child.

I can see at least two, possibly three, things I could have done better. At seeing the very first guy, we could have turned around and gone back. Second, I should have paid more attention to behind me as I guided my wife and child up the grassy knoll. Third, one of us could have called 911 (although that could have provoked a violent response.) My wife did decide she could have exclaimed, “Oh crap! My tampon is leaking” and bolted for the hotel.

Any other thoughts or suggestions?
 
He had approached too fast for me to raise a hand and tell him to keep his distance. At this point, I suspected he was a predator and very dangerous. How do I protect my family? If I tell him no thanks or buzz off, I suspected a weapon would be out in a flash and I could only feel another accomplice. (Paranoid maybe, but I wasn’t going to take chances with my wife and child.) I smiled and said “Really? Well, we’re taking our boy to see Dealey Plaza. We want him to get a feel for the turn and the grassy knoll and the path of the motorcade.”

How about instead of smiling to the possible predator you grimaced and said sternly "No thank you, sir. I have no need for your services," and continuously cutting him off every time he tries to rebut. Why did you go with the man if you actually thought he was dangerous? I mean, that's crazy. If the man has the capability of producing a weapon and robbing you, he's going to whether or not you cooperate with his street hustle or not. You obviously had a lot of suspicious thoughts, but yet, you had every opportunity to cut off the interaction.
 
I agree with Risky....When you had him alone would have been the best time to attempt to break contact with him. Dallas PD has got to know about these hustlers, and a phone call to 911 might have backed him off without allowing him to get close to his backup. Other than that, I think you did very well.
 
It was a dynamic situation that you had never been in before, a situation that you and your family walked away from and a situation that you learned from. So, I say that it was a success. Now, you know a little more about situational awareness and how important it is to maintain this at all times, especially in big city settings. You also learned that it is imperative to be on the same page as far as personal security with whomever you are with when in these situations and it is even better to have a plan in the event that you find yourselves in a similar situation sometime in the future. You also have personal and up-close experience with "strong-arm" tactics, thus giving you an opportunty to develop a strategy to deal with this type of crime in the future. You could also encourage your wife to arm herself as backup just in case the wheels ever run off in your attempts to resolve a future encounter.
 
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You should have blew him off politely but firmly at the outset. Then there wouldn't have been any of this drwn out drama. As Risky says, why did you you go along with him when you thought him to be dangerous? That was foolish. You also paid him?
 
Thanks Risky. I have played it over in my mind, challenging him from the get go. My instinct was that he was a predator and any challenge short of overwhelming would immediately escalate the encounter. My instinct also told me he wasn't alone. Maybe I'm overcautious but I like to know what I'm challenging when the stakes involve my wife and child. As he hadn't made an overtly pulling my weapon could make me look like an over-reacting gun-toting kook.

As he was willing to go the direction I wanted to go, I wasn't going to make a big deal of going that way together unless I saw something (like accomplices) on the way. Realize that we were going to a crowded area. Certainly not to his advantage to go there unless his intent was to manipulate me into another area that was to his advantage.

Thanks again. I'll keep thinking about your suggestion.
 
First off, I'm glad you all made it out okay. That was an incredibly close call. I am going to give some suggestions and hopefully they'll come across as things to jog your thinking, not armchair QBing.

Okay...so, you are polite to a fault. You let the other guy have initiative. You may have felt he was going to pull a weapon if you didn't "play along," but from the way I see it, you gave him the impression of compliance without gaining anything from it. That is the biggest thing you did wrong - you let him dictate the terms of the encounter from start to finish, and you were constantly cognitively playing catch-up. He took advantage of your politeness and courtesy.

The biggest thing you did right was being somewhat ready to react, and keeping a wide field of awareness. However, you were less bold and decisive than you could have been. I like to think of it in terms of creating a situation that allows you to better judge his intent. This could start with things like - if you felt feigning compliance was the best strategy - asking him to walk in front of you. If he does, great! If he doesn't, that's a reason to slightly escalate your wariness. You could ask him where his friend went - sometimes you can glean meaning from a reaction even if he doesn't give you an honest answer.

Let's say for discussion, that at the moment he walked up with no-one around, and you felt he was suspicious, you were right to play dumb. Maybe that was the right decision with your wife and kid there. Now let's fast-forward to when you had your hand on your gun. Why did you? Can you articulate it? It sounds reasonable to me, based on the circumstances. It sounds like that was justifiable.

So let's say you make the decision, as you put your hand on the gun, to say "Leave right now - walk away and don't come back, because I'm worried you are going to harm my wife or child. I saw your buddy and I know what you're up to. Don't f*** around, get out of here. Now." Let's say while uttering that, you made it obvious that your hand was on your gun.

In real-time...

If he closed distance, let's say you drew and shot him. Could you articulate that as being reasonable based on your circumstances? I would argue yes. You were verbally threatened, called a racial slur, coerced, you had reason to believe the man had an accomplice, and you had a wife and child with you who were subject to serious bodily harm from two grown men whom you suspected were trying to rob you; moreover, you gave him a chance to leave, and based on his decision to assault you when you had articulated your reasons for wanting him to leave, you deemed it necessary to use lethal force.

If he left, great. Get out of there, then call the cops.

If he stood there stupidly, that's when you move. You arc out, keep a wide field of vision, and tell your wife and child what to do. "Walk toward the grassy area, I'm going to be 10 feet behind you. Go!"

Some people here will disagree with this. I feel that you would have been reasonable in doing these things, based on your assessment of the situation at the time, if the facts supported your claim as written in the post. The more actions you took that enabled you to assess the intent of the guy, such as I listed above, the more likely you are to know whether lethal force would be necessary, and the more likely you are to be able to provide articulation for an affirmative defense (i.e. self-defense claim). Of course, it's likely that he would have left if you had put the hand on the gun noticeably, but I would never advocate that unless you were actually strongly considering using it... and since you were, I think my stated strategy is valid.

Maybe something like OC spray could have worked, maybe not. Arguably the presence of the accomplice - if you had spotted him - would make a strong case against OC spray. Why? Because that escalates the threat to a much more likely lethal threshold, in my experience and according to my training. Since you suspected the accomplice was nearby, if you needed to use force, one requirement may have been that it be more decisive to end the situation more quickly than you could generate through non-lethal means.

Just a different perspective.
 
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I was born in Dallas, spent my early childhood there, still have family there, been back many times. Still a big city, but your problem,like you said, could've been anywhere... Atlanta, Detroit, Chicago, L.A.... or San Antonio, Houston, Waco, El Paso.
Hindsight's 20-20. I might not have given him the money, but that's me, not you. You did ok. Sounds like you discussed it with your wife afterward, so maybe the biggest lesson was one you figured out on your own.
I'm glad y'all are ok. Next time, try a Hill Country ranch resort. :D
 
You should have blew him off politely but firmly at the outset. Then there wouldn't have been any of this drwn out drama. As Risky says, why did you you go along with him when you thought him to be dangerous? That was foolish. You also paid him?

Going the way we did was the quickest way to a crowded area. And what I really haven't made clear is it was really him going with us rather than us going with him. Not that he gave us any choice. His approach was too direct. I suspect he would have followed us no matter which way we went. Thus, I was choosing the quickest way to a crowd.

I didn't like him giving him money but with the rage he showed it was unlikely he would go away without something and I still had to get my wife and child back to the hotel.
 
I didn't like him giving him money but with the rage he showed it was unlikely he would go away without something and I still had to get my wife and child back to the hotel.

That kind of unwarranted solicitation is illegal and most PD's in tourist areas try to put a stop to it when they can. I would have offered to call the police and let them sort it out if he feel he was being treated unfairly. Odds are he would have jetted.
 
Let's say for discussion, that at the moment he walked up with no-one around, and you felt he was suspicious, you were right to play dumb. Maybe that was the right decision with your wife and kid there. Now let's fast-forward to when you had your hand on your gun. Why did you? Can you articulate it? It sounds reasonable to me, based on the circumstances. It sounds like that was justifiable.

So let's say you make the decision, as you put your hand on the gun, to say "Leave right now - walk away and don't come back, because I'm worried you are going to harm my wife or child. I saw your buddy and I know what you're up to. Don't f*** around, get out of here. Now." Let's say while uttering that, you made it obvious that your hand was on your gun.

I'm taking that as a request to explain myself, so here goes. At that point, he was escalating the situation to go with him to someplace that was likely to be unsafe, he was much younger and quicker than I and thus waiting for him to pull a weapon puts my wife and child in an indefensible position, (Remember, I didn't pull my weapon, show it or threaten him. I could have been bluffing as it was still concealed.) he was becoming increasingly aggressive by getting very close and using his friends as a threat and his response of extreme rage to "I have a friend too" is evidence of ill intent. My mind was already made up that I was not pulling the gun from its holster unless he made a move that could produce a weapon. If his hand came out with a weapon, I would have then pointed mine at him. Basically it would be a sequence of events that he dictates by his actions. His moves were agressive; my moves were defensive of my child, my wife and myself.

If he stood there stupidly, that's when you move. You arc out, keep a wide field of vision, and tell your wife and child what to do. "Walk toward the grassy area, I'm going to be 10 feet behind you. Go!"

THAT is a great point. Basically I stupidly stood there after telling him to leave. I should have followed up with us moving up the grassy knoll loudly telling my wife and child to call 911.

Thank you very much!
 
I'm glad y'all are ok. Next time, try a Hill Country ranch resort.

Thanks. The wedding was in a Hill Country chapel. It was very nice. Our second time to the Hill Country. It's wonderful country. We'll be back.
 
That kind of unwarranted solicitation is illegal and most PD's in tourist areas try to put a stop to it when they can. I would have offered to call the police and let them sort it out if he feel he was being treated unfairly. Odds are he would have jetted.

That's a very good point and one I should have tried. I probably could have continued to smile (without mentioning my friend) while doing it. :) Thank you.
 
95XL,

Apparently I wasn't clear - I gave three hypotheticals, all of which to me were justifiable. I wasn't questioning you at all because I felt you have probably already done that enough. I did point out a few specific examples of mistakes, but the "let's say..." and "so let's say..." are ways you could have forced his hand and dealt with the possible outcomes.

Just a thought exercise. Wasn't asking you to explain yourself. Maybe if you read it after I explained this, it will make sense.

conwict said:
Why did you? Can you articulate it? It sounds reasonable to me, based on the circumstances. It sounds like that was justifiable.

The "reasonable" standard is the standard you need to meet if you want to use affirmative claim to self-defense, as a legal strategy.

I pointed out some ways you could have acted that would have allowed you to further assess the situation and act more decisively, and be able to articulate a justification based on reasonable decisions, should you have needed to defend yourself.

conwict said:
You were verbally threatened, called a racial slur, coerced, you had reason to believe the man had an accomplice, and you had a wife and child with you who were subject to serious bodily harm from two grown men whom you suspected were trying to rob you; moreover, you gave him a chance to leave, and based on his decision to assault you when you had articulated your reasons for wanting him to leave, you deemed it necessary to use lethal force.

(That too)
 
So... you paid him because you were afraid of him? He got mad so you tried to appease him with a reward? Doesn't make sense to me. I would have called his bluff. You never saw a weapon?
 
95XL, assuming you correctly perceived the situation, have you asked yourself why he chose you during the selection process in looking for someone to target? He apparently realized you weren't a local and correctly guessed your destination and purpose without ever talking to you. I've spent a fair amount of time in that area as it is not all that far from the courthouse. I ask because a good way to avoid this type of conflict is to avoid being selected in the initial victim selection process - either by blending in or by not being notice at all. Why do you think you got noticed?
 
GRIZ22 said:
You should have blew him off politely but firmly at the outset.

Bingo. Standard hustler/solicitor/panhandler response. Look him in the eye and firmly tell him you aren't interested. No debates, no battering or bargaining, just "we aren't interested". Don't give him an opportunity to start his bit.
 
The wife and I are older - 60 ish or so. Over the years we have developed and practiced a response to being approached.

FWIW here it is, YMMV.

We rarely get approached as we deliberately dont look like soft target. On the rare occasion when we do get approached.

I say nothing and wife says, No, not today, thank you, I say nothing but shift the cane to the non gun side, and hard stare, and move to his right side. Usually it ends there.
If he tries to vebally overcome the no with a second try, She says very stongly "what part of no dont you understand."
meanwhile I move behind him, still not talking Now he dont know which way to look BTW, Did I mention, I walk with a cane.:)
One more word out of him and I finally open my mouth and firmly say something like, "we are done here pal"

Never had to go any further but the next step involves the cane coming to port arms and her calling 911.
 
Glad your gtg

I am happy it worked out where no use of DPF was needed.

But I too agree with the first reply you got,you should have told him from the get go to piss off [ better choices of words might have done it too ].

I mention that I was LEO since I am very used to getting to the point REAL fast.

I would have not allowed him to 'lead me' anywhere,so as not to impune that he had a guiding hand at any time.

But after 26 years as LEO it is easier for me to be confrontational when called upon.

I d see that you are not as so ill mannered as I.

And did have a family to consider,I too would consider my wife.

But I believe that ending the confrontation faster would have been better for you.

Still happy that it ended as it did.

Sorry but I just read this from the OP
"My mind was already made up that I was not pulling the gun from its holster unless he made a move that could produce a weapon. If his hand came out with a weapon, I would have then pointed mine at him. Basically it would be a sequence of events that he dictates by his actions. His moves were agressive; my moves were defensive of my child, my wife and myself."

In my not so humble opinion that is the greatest mistake you would have ever made.

"point" your weapon at a man that has drawn his is a good way to meet your maker.

IF you really need to draw - it had better be to AIM and SHOOT your armed assailant.
 
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Conwict, thanks for your insights. I think I see your points.

Rhodco, yes I appeased him. Not something I wanted to do but I was scared and trying to avoid a fight especially in front of my wife and child. At that point, we were in a crowd and I was anxious to get rid of him. I probably should have had my wife or child call 911 instead.

BR, thanks for your insights. Yes I have been questioning why I was chosen. I think it was a combination of we wound up alone, we're both older and I walk with a noticeable limp and we obviously didn't know the area well. When I saw the first guy, I should have turned us around. At that point, we were close to a crowd and we could have blended back in.

Thank you. Obviously I made some mistakes. I did do enough things right that we got out with minor damage. Hopefully there won't be a next time because I keep us blended in with a crowd and in a position where I can safely tell the hustlers to buzz off. Thanks again.
 
Bikerdoc and Scaatylobo, thanks for your input. I'm getting the point. I'm still too timid. And I do need to get my wife to assume some responsibility in our defense. And I understand not to draw on somebody who already has a gun in the fight. You make a good point. My hesitancy to use force could get me killed. The best course is to avoid being chosen. Thanks again.
 
Your more than welcome

Its nice to see that a OP can actually learn and be a bit humble here.

Too many already know it all.

I pray that you dont get in that situation ever again.

But it seems to me that you have a better handle on it than before.
 
Glad you are ok. I have lived in DFW for 30 plus years. This sort of scenario happens in even the nicest neighborhoods just like any big city. However, I rarely ever feel unsafe in DFW. Hope you enjoyed your visit minus your experience at The Plaza. In the future come to Fort Worth. It's much safer in Sundance Square.
 
I am glad you made it out ok ! I believe you made the mistake of allowing the continued engagement . Should have ended it sooner , be more direct ! Tell him to get away from you and your family , if he continues ,( with your hand on your gun and weak hand raised palm out in a stop motion ) tell him to keep his hands in plain sight , dont make any sudden moves and walk away or you will kill him ! Then call 911 and tell them you are under duress , please send police ! I also concur with idea that your wife also be armed and trained ! Kevin
 
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