Trouble in the Big D

[Fremmer]

You are too nice.

That gun you were carrying was useless.

When he started getting nasty and telling you about his friends and demanding cash, you should have pulled that gun and pointed it right at his chest and told him to walk away while he still can walk. And pulled the trigger if necessary.

I think one of the best things I've ever read on here was tips from a police officer (?) Who said that if you're scared, pull the gun! Don't wait for someone to hit you or pull their own weapon first. Mr. Tour guide isn't gonna call the police, he's a thug who doesn't want to be involved with the police. He wants money from a victim, which is what he got. And you're not going to jail for brandishing, you were being threatened.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm irritated because a fellow member essentially got robbed right in front of his family. I'm sorry about that, my friend.

Reconsider your ccw, maybe you shouldn't carry. Nothing wrong with that, lots of people don't want to ccw. But my point is, if you are going to wait until someone kicks your ass before you are willing to pull that gun,what good is it?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fremmer: I think one of the best things I've ever read on here was tips from a police officer (?) Who said that if you're scared, pull the gun!

Bad advice indeed.

Don't wait for someone to hit you or pull their own weapon first.

Good advice.

Mr. Tour guide isn't gonna call the police, he's a thug who doesn't want to be involved with the police.

Anyone can call.

He wants money from a victim, which is what he got.

OK....

And you're not going to jail for brandishing, you were being threatened.

Was the use of force justified?

 

[bikerdoc]

FWIW, Im going to revisit an earlier point, not well covered.

Dont look like a victim.

Mas Ayoob, who is a member here, covers the topic in many of his writings and classes with the phrase "failure of the victim selection process"

If you dont look like a victim you wont be selected.

I cant tell you individually how to do it, you have to inventory your appearance , and presentation/perception, others have of you, and modify it to present a hard target not worth the trouble to approach, but I can tell you it works.

Anyone intersted I can start another tread, or you can google Mas.

just my .02

 

[Fremmer]

Lol if robbery doesnt justify the use of force in texas, nothing will.

He was robbed. Right in front of his boy. And his gun was useless.

 

[KTXdm9]

OP, thanks for sharing. There's always a fair amount of Monday morning quarterbacking whenever someone posts an encounter. I appreciate you posting despite those type of comments. Your post has lead me to think about what I would do in that type of situation, which is a good thing.

For a lot of us, I think the first attempt to deescalate a situation is to be polite or friendly. We have to remember that the normal rules of society don't apply to the type of turd that approached you. A-hole is the language he speaks. It's perfectly acceptable to be one too if you or your family feel threatened.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fremmer: Lol if robbery doesnt justify the use of force in texas, nothing will.

Okay.

He was robbed. Right in front of his boy.

I would not want to try to convince the charging authority that one who had made oblique referenes to "friends" and who exclaimed "you owe me a $100!” with his eyes "raging" had intentionally or knowingly threatened or placed another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.

And his gun was useless.

Seems to me that his reference to it may have saved the day.

 

[Fremmer]

I'm sorry, I know I wasn't there, but the op and his wife were scared enough by this thug to cause both of them to throw money at him. The thugs decision to be satisfied with 30 dollars is what saved the day. The gun did nothing. Well, other than have the safety flicked off while it remained stuffed down his pants.

Are the police going to be called? Good! Let mr thug try and explain what happened, if he sticks around long enough, which thugs usually don't do when the police are on the way. They can talk to mr thugs friends, too, if they stick around. Which isn't going to happen.

Nobody wants to have to pull a gun and or shoot a robber. But if you never pull a concealed weapon until you're being physically assaulted, which may be too late (its pretty hard to effectively defend yourself after you've been stuck 2 or 3 times with a knife or while your head is being slammed into concrete ), why even ccw? Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk and I'm no expert, but the op's gun did nothing for him. He could have been robbed for $30 without it just fine.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fremmer: The gun did nothing.

Guns "do nothing" in all kinds of situations--disputes over parking places, the monkey dance, road rage, dealing with panhandlers, dealing with trespass, and so on--and that's the way those who make the laws have decided that it should be.

Are the police going to be called? Good!

No, not good, if what people say they saw--and remember, they were not following the OP around and listening to everything--provides the authorities with enough to establish probable cause that aggravated assault had occurred.

One does not draw a gun unless one is legally justified--and even then, one may have difficulty providing adequate evidence in support of justification.

Now, in the OP's juridiction, the threshold for justification is lower than in most locations.

I cannot fault the OP in any way, based on what has been reported.

 

[Fremmer]

And, depending on ones perspective, $30 might be worth allowing yourself to be robbed and to not have to deal with the police and or to have to pull the trigger. I understand that.

But I can't accept the standard of having to be physically assaulted before pulling a gun while being robbed by a street thug because of the fear of the police. I understand he doesnt want to be arrested, but the police arent stupid, either, and i presume he will be more credible than a street thug. Especially with the eyewitness testimony of his wife and child.

The op was scared enough to deactivate the safety of his handgun while it was stuffed down his pants. But he never presented that weapon to stop the robbery or protect himself and his family. Bottom line is the op was robbed and his gun was useless.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The gun wasn't useless. It just wasn't used. BIG difference.

All things considered and after the fact, the outcome might not have been perfect but it seems acceptable given the possibilities. I imagine the OP learned a lot from it. It might have been better had some lessons been learned from someone like Southnarc (http://www.urbancombatives.com/sn.htm) before the encounter took place, and it might have gone better had the OP's spouse been better prepared to deal with the encounter as well, but all in all it could have gone a lot worse. Thirty bucks in 'mugger money' is a cheap ticket out of a bad situation IMHO. I see no reason for the OP to beat himself up... or for anyone else to do it either.

http://shivworks.com/

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fremmer: But I can't accept the standard of having to be physically assaulted before pulling a gun while being robbed by a street thug because of the fear of the police.

I'm not aware of that standard.

The op was scared enough to deactivate the safety of his handgun while it was stuffed down his pants

After the unwelcome pest said, with a "little snarl", “I’ve got lots of friends around here” , the OP reportedly decided that the man was "very dangerous", and he clicked the safety off.

But he never presented that weapon to stop the robbery or protect himself and his family. Bottom line is the op was robbed and his gun was useless.

Do you contend that the OP had reasonably concluded, based on what he now at the time, that the 'tour guide' had placed him in fear of imminent injury or death with his "raging eyes"?

So far, it is not clear that a robbery occurred.

Those who carry firearms will be well served to know (1) when they are justified in presenting them, and (2) how to avoid trouble.

It seems to me that the OP met those criteria.

Yeah, he could have done a little better.

 

[Fremmer]

I'm certainly not trying to beat the op up. I'm sorry if it sounds that way. If that outcome is acceptable to the op, then fine. But the ccw did absolutely nothing to stop the robbery.

And if you have to allow yourself to be robbed because you refuse to employ a cw to defend yourself because the police might not believe you and will favor a thug who committed a felony (the unlawful taking of money by the threat of force ) because you didn't allow yourself to be stabbed or beaten first, then ccw is indeed worthless.

And when that thug got in the ops face and demanded money and told the op that he'd better give the thug the money or his friends were going to help out, he was being robbed. The op and his wife knew that they had to give it up, knew they were being robbed,which is why each of them did.

Heck, its just a horrible incident and I'm sorry it happened.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fremmer: But the ccw did absolutely nothing to stop the robbery.

If there was a robbery, the OP didn't mension it.

And if you have to allow yourself to be robbed because you refuse to employ a cw to defend yourself because the police might not believe you and will favor a thug who committed a felony (the unlawful taking of money by the threat of force ) because you didn't allow yourself to be stabbed or beaten first, then ccw is indeed worthless.

In the OP's jurisdiction, had anyone presented an imminent threat of injurious force, he would have been justified in presenting his weapon.

Thresholds for presentation in other jurisdictions vary.

You will note from his account that he was ready to do so, had it been necessary.

And when that thug got in the ops face and demanded money and told the op that he'd better give the thug the money or his friends were going to help out, he was being robbed.

Likely not.

The op and his wife knew that they had to give it up, knew they were being robbed,which is why each of them did.

You are making an assumption.

If you carry a gun, it is incumbent upon you to learn everything you can about its safe, effective, and lawful use.

 

[mr.scott]

I'm going to have to agree with Fremmer on this. Even though the site is called The High Road, taking the High Road in real life can get you killed. I'm glad the op made it out with no injury, but having been down there many times taking out of town friends and family to see the JFK stuff, there are conspiracy nuts everywhere, and being downtown and close to the DART terminal, there are lots of thugs around. I am always direct and outright rude to anyone that approaches me. They want an easy score, not someone that will cause a scene.

You can justify to yourself that he wasn't "robbed", but he was.
http://law.justia.com/codes/texas/2005/pe/007.00.000029.00.html

He felt forced to give money to the individual out of fear for his and his families safety.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by mr.scott: You can justify to yourself that he wasn't "robbed", but he was.

He felt forced to give money to the individual out of fear for his and his families safety.

"Felt forced" doesn't cut it.

I do not need to justify anything to myself.

He or she who produces a weapon--and the OP did not do so--has the obligation to show that he had reason to believe that he been placed in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.

Could the OP have done that? We don't know, but the fact that he elected to not draw would seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[DFW1911]

OP,

I know that area of Dallas very well. I lived there for over 5 years.

FWIW, nice work! You and your family walked away from a situation - unharmed and able to carry on - for the measly sum of $30. H*ll, you would have (and may did ) spent 5X that on dinner alone in the West End!

Based on your post - and the THR mall-ninja haranguing - I'd bet you learned from the incident and probably won't let it repeat in the future. A good solid "get away from me" forcefully said will resolve a lot of issues. Then again, it may escalate them. Words can very dangerous indeed, so use as you see fit.

All too often many of us on this forum think that drawing our CCW and holding the bad guys at bay and / or engaging in other acts of derring-do (while we shuttle the family to safety AND call 911 to tell them why we're in the right AND prepare for the "statement to the news") is what having a CHL is for.

I disagree. Shooting another person just plain sucks - period. It's really, really, awful no matter how "justified." Mods: sorry about the "sucks," but it does.

The interaction with the culprit in this case (from what I've read) didn't justify drawing your weapon. $30 is sounding like a fair amount for the safety of your family and the lesson. YMMV.

You learned from the incident and you're alive to share it with us. That's definitely worth the dollars spent.

Thanks again for the post.

Take care,
DFW1911

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Ayoob presented a similar situation in one of his magazine articles, years ago. He gave the perp some money and walked away.
I like Fremmers solution better. Just my opinion.

P.R.

 

[Dean1818]

Remind me to never go to Dallas.

Having lived in the Dallas area for over 10 years, and visited the Plaza...... Many, many times............. I havent ever felt unsafe

I have been to many big cities here and around the world, other than Singapore, Dallas is probably the safest " big city" I have ever been to

In the plaza there are 2-3 professional beggers that try to come off as "official" tour guides. There is a museum right there.

These 2-3 guys look for tourists to get some money from. I have seen these guys a few times. If you are looking around with nervous looks they will be even more aggressive.

The best weapon is not a CCW, is a FIRM NO, I am not interested!

They wilt.

Who knows if the guy the OP talked to is one of the 3. My guess is yes.


Dallas, and Texas for that matter are awesome...........

I got here as soon as I could.


With any city, some bum is going to tweak an easy target.........

 

[Fremmer]

The best solution is exactly what happened. The op only lost $30, which is a lot better than possibly having to shoot somebody right in front of a kid, having to be handcuffed, having to be interrogated, having to hire a lawyer, and having to deal with a huge mess.

I was just pissed about what happened to our friend. Good thing emotion didnt trump reason with our op, unlike myself.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I would have been very Vocal and Blunt and We don't need your services. Glad you got out with only spending 30 bucks. I wouldn't have let it get that far.

 

[chrome_austex]

$30 is nothing, and giving it up like you did was smart and really disarmed the guy. You gave him a chance to save some face with his buddy, which forced him to drop it and controlled the situation. You might have been able to brush him off without paying OR showing the gun, but that's just nitpicking a successful endeavor.

Oh, and if the guy was trying to take me off somewhere quiet, I'd consider him a professional mugger, not a professional begger.

 

[bababooey32]

If there was a robbery, the OP didn't mension [sic] it.

That is ridiculous. OP had his property taken from under threat of force or intimidation. Robbed. If it wasn't robbery, are you suggesting no crime was committed? Why was op encouraged to call the police? To report that he gave money willingly to some guy?

I'm not sure he would have ever been justified in drawing on the thug, based on the description of the scenario I read, but it's a close call

 

[checkmyswag]

The ideal move would have been to shut it all down at the beginning.

But that being said...you were there not any of us. You thought on your feet and did what you had to do to keep you and yours safe. Good on you. Good situational awareness at how organized they were. My God they had intelligence gathering and comms! Also good after action review. Thanks for sharing.

We have lots of panhandlers where I live and I had a far less aggressive version of your story not too long ago w a drunk homeless guy. Did the same thing. Put myself between him and the family...hand by the gun...then we ducked into a store and it was over.

Stay frosty.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bababooey32: OP had his property taken from under threat of force or intimidation. Robbed.

Under Texas law?

If it wasn't robbery, are you suggesting no crime was committed?

No.

But you have hit the question on the head.

Was there probable cause to suspect that the "tour guide" committed robbery? Did he do anything to place the OP in fear of imminent bodily injury or death?

Would the Dallas Police conclude that making references to "friends" and demanding money constituted the crime of robbery?

 

[JohnKSa]

He or she who produces a weapon--and the OP did not do so--has the obligation to show that he had reason to believe that he been placed in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.

I think that the standard was met.

The production of a weapon is considered force, not deadly force as long as the point of displaying the weapon is to create the apprehension that it might be used if necessary.

Force (and therefore the display of a weapon) would be justified if the defender believed that the other person was attempting to commit simple robbery. I believe that the circumstances of the situation would cause a reasonable person to believe that they were being robbed. Robbery is simply making a person to give up money or other possessions against their will by "intentionally placing a that person in fear of imminent bodily injury". The repeated threat that "I have lots of friends" and the statement "You don't want to be with them" would likely be enough to make a reasonable person fear imminent bodily injury if they did not cooperate.

Furthermore, if either the OP or his wife are over 65 and/or disabled, the crime is elevated to aggravated robbery.

The applicable TX statutes are quoted below.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.​

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;​

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.​

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.29.htm

Sec. 29.02. ROBBERY.
(a) A person commits an offense if, in the course of committing theft as defined in Chapter 31 and with intent to obtain or maintain control of the property, he:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.​