Two theoretical questions about home defense

[Grey_Mana]

I was watching that video from a few threads down where the lawyer and the cop say never speak to the police. That seemed over-the-top to me, but I got to thinking:


1 - if in self-defense I shoot a dangerous intruder in my home, do I need to call the police or can I claim 5th amendment privilege? If I hide or lock up the gun before the police arrive to prevent it being taken as evidence, am I within my rights? If the BG is bleeding on my stuff, can I move the body to protect my property?

2- When cops arrive and enter my house to deal with a shooting, what are the limitations on their movement / seizure of property to collect evidence? Do I have any legal right to restrict where they can go and what they can take (and will they listen to me)? Do cops need a warrant, and if so how frequently do they get one?

(Anyone who happens to know where these types of things are addressed in Maryland statute, please drop me a link.)

 

[M1911]

1 - if in self-defense I shoot a dangerous intruder in my home, do I need to call the police or can I claim 5th amendment privilege? If I hide or lock up the gun before the police arrive to prevent it being taken as evidence, am I within my rights? If the BG is bleeding on my stuff, can I move the body to protect my property?

Call the police immediately. You were the victim. Give the dispatcher the minimal information required: "He tried to kill me, I had to stop him. Send police and an ambulance." After that, stop talking and ask for a lawyer.

If you don't call the police, what are you going to do? Hide the body? That's a felony.

Are you kidding about hiding your gun? Your gun is evidence. They are going to take it. If you hide it, they will assume that you are hiding something else and they will turn over your house until they find it.

Move the body? No, don't do that. That would be considered tampering with evidence and is a felony. You are going to have far bigger things to worry about than a carpet that has to be replaced.

2- When cops arrive and enter my house to deal with a shooting, what are the limitations on their movement / seizure of property to collect evidence? Do I have any legal right to restrict where they can go and what they can take (and will they listen to me)? Do cops need a warrant, and if so how frequently do they get one?

It is a crime scene. Either you committed a crime, or the perp did, or both of you did. They will secure the scene and search for evidence. I don't think they need a warrant for that, but if they do you can be sure they can get one.

 

[comp^2]

Good questions. I wish I had some answers, but I only have more questions.

When you call the cops, what should you say? Should you say you were acting in self-defense and then ask for a lawyer, or say absolutely nothing about the reason for shooting?

 

[TAB]

There is a very good chance they are going to "clear" the house looking for other threats... So they are going to look anyplace some one maybe hiding. There is nothing you can do about that. Now when it comes to the investagation, they are only allowed to look at relavent things. If they go over board on searching, you make them pay for it later, in court.

 

[another okie]

Opinions differ. I think everyone needs to analyze themselves first. Are you the kind of person who cannot shut up once you start talking, especially under stress? If so, the less said the better. My plan would be to say something like "he tried to kill me, I defended myself, over there is his gun, etc." In other words, establish the basic facts, then shut up.

 

[TallPine]

When you call the cops, what should you say? Should you say you were acting in self-defense and then ask for a lawyer, or say absolutely nothing about the reason for shooting?

My plan - if such a situation should ever come about - is to call the sheriff's office and tell them someone broke into my home, and request a deputy and an ambulance.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Hi M1991,
Yes, those are the questions I'm asking. I'm sure if a disaster happens in real life I'd be more concerned about stopping or at least slowing the post-traumatic diarrhea; I might get to the point of thinking about changing my underwear before the police arrived. That's why these are all theoretical questions.

Essentially - what actually consitutes tampering with evidence. 'Don't touch anything' is great advice and obviously the best decision to make, but is it a legal requirement? Say I decide to flip the breaker and cut power to my house while I'm waiting, to make it more difficult to search my place at night? That's jackassery and ridiculous, but do I have the right to do it and would the police have the right to flip the switch back?

Regarding my theoretical gun - in theory, if I'm willing to stipulate in court that I shot somebody, they have no need of my gun. 4th amendment prohibition on takings, and it seems like a prima faciae case should be necessary before it is collected as evidence. For example: if I have 5 guns, are they going to take all 5 automatically and leave me with nothing? If I say, this is the gun, take this one and they leave the other 4, and I had misled them and they took the wrong gun so I could hide the actual gun before they figure it out, then they would feel mighty silly. So it seems like police would want to take every firearm in the house to prevent such nonsense, which is bad news for me. So what is supposed to happen / what actually happens?

 

[M1911]

Essentially - what actually consitutes tampering with evidence. 'Don't touch anything' is great advice and obviously the best decision to make, but is it a legal requirement?

You'll need a lawyer for that, and it will depend upon your state. But here's one definitions from Montana law:

45-7-207. Tampering with or fabricating physical evidence. (1) A person commits the offense of tampering with or fabricating physical evidence if, believing that an official proceeding or investigation is pending or about to be instituted, he:
(a) alters, destroys, conceals, or removes any record, document, or thing with purpose to impair its verity or availability in such proceeding or investigation; or
(b) makes, presents, or uses any record, document, or thing knowing it to be false and with purpose to mislead any person who is or may be engaged in such proceeding or investigation.

Say I decide to flip the breaker and cut power to my house while I'm waiting, to make it more difficult to search my place at night? That's jackassery and ridiculous, but do I have the right to do it and would the police have the right to flip the switch back?

If you do something with the intent to hinder police in the legal prosecution of their duties, nothing good will come of it and quite possibly legal complications will follow.

Regarding my theoretical gun - in theory, if I'm willing to stipulate in court that I shot somebody, they have no need of my gun.

There is not a chance in the world that you would get away with that. Your gun is evidence. They need it. They will get it.

What they know is that someone is injured or dead and appears to have been shot. You say you shot him. But they don't know that you did nor do they know what gun was actually used to do the shooting. People often lie to them.

They don't know where you were with respect to the deceased when he was shot. They may know where you say you were (or not, since you're probably not talking). They need your gun to determine whether 1) it was the actual weapon used, and 2) your location and orientation and the perps location and orientation at the time of the incident. To determine that, they need to do ballistic testing. To do ballistic testing, they need your gun. The ballistic testing will allow them to match the gun to any spent cartridges at the scene, possibly to a bullet recovered from the scene or the perp. In addition, matching powder residue and/or powder burns on the perps clothing against powder residue testing performed in the lab with your gun and ammunition can give them an idea of your distance from the perp at the time of the shooting.

For example: if I have 5 guns, are they going to take all 5 automatically and leave me with nothing?

Depends on the state and the circumstances. In most states, I suspect not. In MA, they will most likely take your license to carry and since you can't possess a gun in MA without a license, they will take all your guns too. MA is a worst case state in this respect.

If I say, this is the gun, take this one and they leave the other 4, and I had misled them and they took the wrong gun so I could hide the actual gun before they figure it out, then they would feel mighty silly.

If you mislead police during the investigation of a shooting, they will believe that you are hiding something because you know that you committed a crime by shooting the victim. Congratulations. You just turned a possible self defense case into a murder investigation.

 

[Jeff White]

Grey_Mana, if you shoot someone in your house, there will be a complete investigation. That investigation will be conducted, with or without your cooperation.

The best advice I can give you after 22 years as a police officer is, call 911 and report the crime. When the police arrive, they will secure the area. You will be asked to make a statement. Tell the officers that you were the victim, and that you feared for your life. Then ask for medical attention. You may actually need it, people have dropped dead in the aftermath of a deadly force encounter because of the adrenalin dump. Tell them that you want to talk to your lawyer and that you will give them a complete statement once you've been medically cleared and your lawyer is present.

Forget the rest of of your ideas, like keeping your gun or hiding it. They are not only stupid ideas, they are criminal. If the police want to search your house, they will simply get a warrant (that's routine in a murder investigation, because they don't want to lose any evidence they acquired in a motion to suppress because of a doubt about your consent to the search) they will most likely look very closely for any prior relationship between you and the person you just shot so the warrant will likely give them permission to look through your papers and computer files unless it's very clear that there was no connection between the two of you.

Things like cutting the power to your house aren't going to stop them from searching. If you don't want to be part of the inevitable investigation, I'd suggest that you never shoot someone. Messing with physical evidence to include trying to delay it's discovery like cutting the power will just get you charged with obstruction or worse. You may be cleared for the shooting and do 3-5 years for felony obstruction.

Jeff

 

[rainbowbob]

Tell the officers that you were the victim, and that you feared for your life. Then ask for medical attention...Tell them that you want to talk to your lawyer and that you will give them a complete statement once you've been medically cleared and your lawyer is present.

That seems like good advice and is essentially what I was taught in a "Personal Protection" course (taught by a couple of LEOs). I notice however that you do not suggest admitting to actually shooting the perp lying on your living room floor. Should you? Would you?

 

[Jeff White]

I notice however that you do not suggest admitting to actually shooting the perp lying on your living room floor. Should you? Would you?

It's going to be pretty obvious with the bad guy laying dead in your house. I wouldn't go any farther then I was in fear for my life and shot him. The request for medical attention gets you away from the scene and the inevitable questions from the investigating officers. You have to remember not to repeat your story to the medical people. You may be wanting to tell somebody, sometimes adrenalin affects people that way. But save your story for your attorney.

Jeff

 

[rainbowbob]

^^^

Excellent advice, thanks Jeff.

 

[CWL]

I would go so far to limit my comment to LEOs to:

"I was in fear for my life, I'd like to speak to my lawyer"

Leave it at that and repeat as often as necessary. Saying anything else such as "he tried to kill me so I had to shoot him" can be twisted around. What if an aggressive attorney can show doubt that the BG "tried to kill" you? Then your 'need to shoot' defense goes out the window.

Keep it simple & short and let your lawyer make the statements.

 

[TallPine]

ask for medical attention

Trouble is, I dislike and fear doctors almost as much as home invaders

 

[TexasRifleman]

Trouble is, I dislike and fear doctors almost as much as home invaders

Then don't let them do anything but give you a drink of water. It's just a good excuse to buy time and wait for the lawyer.

They would be crazy to try to deny your request for medical attention.

 

[OldCowHand]

One of the things that happens during a high-adrenaline situation is auditory and visual exclusion. An ex-cop whose class I attended suggested wording along the following lines: "Officer, I want to help with the investigation in any way I can, but I'm a little shook up now. [brief description of the situation], I was in fear of my life and pulled my weapon. Shots were fired, and he ceased to be a threat. Now as I said, I'm a little shook up; I'm going to need one of those medics to check me out, I'll consult with my lawyer, then I'll be glad to give you a more complete statement."

Who's to say that a passing policeman didn't stumble upon the incident in progress and take a shot through the window? Maybe it wasn't even your weapon that sent the perpetrator on his way. Your awareness of what was going on away from the threat axis may not be complete. "Shots were fired", not "I shot him."

 

[M1911]

I notice however that you do not suggest admitting to actually shooting the perp lying on your living room floor. Should you? Would you?

I would say "He was going to kill me/us. I had to stop him. I'll answer all of your questions, but first I need to speak with my lawyer."

The first part, "he was going to kill me", tells them you were in fear for your life. The second part, "I had to stop him", indicates that all you were trying to do was stop the attack; your intent was solely to protect yourself and your loved ones from the perpetrator's attack. The third part is your request for lawyer. After that, ****.

The request for medical care is a good one. You will likely be on a huge adrenalin surge and you really will not feel well. I've had adrenalin dumps a couple times, and they are not fun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

GM,

Take a look at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm .

Then read it again.

Talk to a criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction regarding what the self defense laws in your jurisdiction say- and what they really mean. Talk to your local prosecutor or ADA. This is stuff you need to KNOW, not hear fourth hand from someone who thinks they know what the deal is.

In the aftermath of a self defense incident, most folks tend to run off at the mouth. So learn to tell responding LEOs enough to demonstrate you are the good guy/victim, and then shut up till your attorney arrives.

Do everything you can to avoid having to shoot someone, but if you have to, then don't try to move anything, hide anything or cover anything up in the aftermath.

lpl/nc

 

[ROVERMAN]

Question for Jeff White... Will the police hall you to jail once you have been cleared by the medical staff and book you?

 

[Jeff White]

Question for Jeff White... Will the police hall you to jail once you have been cleared by the medical staff and book you?

Maybe....it just depends on the circumstances and what they think they have discovered. If you are involved in a defensive shooting and it's not the internet gun forum standard of totally unrelated/unconnected bad guy enters your home, naked and covered in peanut butter and announces his plans to do vile things to you and yours, then consider yourself lucky if you aren't detained or even arrested.

The internet gun forum standard for a defensive shooting is really pretty rare. Most defensive shootings occur under much more murky circumstances. You may be arrested and later released without charges being filed. Depending on the state, you may be detained while the investigation is going on.

My point is, that unless the exact circumstances of what happened are very clear, don't be shocked if you are detained or arrested.

Jeff

 

[M1911]

My point is, that unless the exact circumstances of what happened are very clear, don't be shocked if you are detained or arrested.

+1

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. I suspect that if you are in an anti-gun jurisdiction that you are more likely to be arrested than if you are in Bugscuffle, TX.

 

[ROVERMAN]

Thanks Jeff.

 

[M1911]

If you are involved in a defensive shooting and it's not the internet gun forum standard of totally unrelated/unconnected bad guy enters your home, naked and covered in peanut butter and announces his plans to do vile things to you and yours, then consider yourself lucky if you aren't detained or even arrested.

On minor correction. It isn't peanut butter. The preferred urban camo is BBQ sauce:

APPLETON, Wisc. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - A couple in Wisconsin telephoned police in the middle of the night after finding a man in their basement covered head to toe in barbecue sauce.

"He told the officers that it was urban camouflage," said the homeowner.

The homeowners say they woke up to whistling sounds. The husband grabbed his shotgun and headed toward the basement where he found the sauced-up intruder. He held him at gunpoint until police arrived.

The guy told officers he had covered himself in barbecue sauce because he wanted to hide from the government.

http://www.wwmt.com/news/sauce_1350893___article.html/basement_covered.html

 

[bdickens]

I can't believe someone would even ask questions like "should I move the body" or "should I hide evidence or otherwise hinder a police investigation?"

Seriously, someone who would entertain such ideas probably shouldn't have a gun in the first place.

 

[rainbowbob]

...someone who wouold entertain such ideas probably shouldn't have a gun in the first place.

Yeah...Why should they get to excercise their Constitutional rights and be able to defend themselves from criminals?