When the Police Arrive....

[BullfrogKen]

We face much more danger from the person that caused us to draw our gun than from the police. And I still maintain criminals don't work alone. There are probably people with him you don't even know about. If you don't see them yet, assume +1.


I have the impression that folks here really don't understand how chaotic these sorts of situations are.

I don't want to still be in the middle of sorting out the problem when the Police arrive. That's far too long. If we're at my house or some place these people have no right to be, either he - and his friends - have to leave. If I'm in a public place, I'm leaving. Otherwise known as escaping the problem.


No good can come from hanging around, and the likelihood of something bad taking place increases with each second. Have you even seen a criminal's family suddenly "show up" from out of the woodwork at the scene? Believe me, you don't want to be anywhere in the vicinity.


Rethink your premise, folks.

 

[Deanimator]

Put it in your holster!

Somebody else has already posited that the police would shoot you for doing THAT.

Hold onto your gun: get shot.
Drop your gun: get shot.
Place your gun on the ground: get shot.
Holster your gun: get shot.

It seems that the only way to not get shot by the police is to not have a gun and let the criminal maim or murder you.

 

[Six]

It could be, that there is no good answer.

I don't understand the insistence in S&T that there is a "right" answer for every possible situation. Which is why we see so many threads being nitpicked to death, even when everyone lived to tell the tale. People insist that if the person had only performed one particular specific action, every event after that was 100% predictable and would result in an optimal outcome.

Sometimes, the best you can do is hope for once the dies are cast might be to minimize the damage.

That might mean that you get shot by a cop.

It's still better than your whole family being wiped out by the bad guy.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Six,

There is no right answer. There are poor choices, and better choices. But as you correctly pointed out, there is no right one.


The best advice for situations like this is one people don't like to hear:

Look the least like the type of people the Police have become accustomed to associating with "the bad guys".


That requires a change in appearance. And appearances are personal, outward representations and images of ourselves that people don't like to change.

It won't guarantee you won't get shot by the friendlies. The best it might do is buy you a few seconds.

Like jscott mentioned a few days ago-

From the law enforcement side, let me take a bit of pressure off of you. Experience has proven that I can almost always tell the moment I arrive on scene who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Demeanor, actions, stances, dress, age, prior contact with suspect, citizens pointing, who appears out of place, and the tell tale running away are all what experienced law enforcers call "clues."

Police have an idea of what they expect to see. From experience they know how most bad guys look, act, and behave. If you look, act, and behave like someone who was a decent guy who became a victim, most of the time they'll pick up on it before you get a chance to say a word.

He doesn't look like the bad guy.

That few seconds of contemplation on their part is what you want. If you achieve it, your chances of not getting lit up by the first responders increases dramatically. If you don't get it, sorting out who's who becomes much more difficult.

 

[sidheshooter]

I'm no pro trainer or expert, so I ultimately defer to the folks above who are known to be such authorities.

That said, I'm one of the guys who first made a comment about reholstering, and the need for being able to do so one-handed. I also made the statement that some training might be good, and that there were courses out there that include sections on interacting with ROs.

Let me clear; the time to reholster is before the cops get there. Leaving aside the fact that it is indeed likely more prudent to let perps get away for a sec, if you are holding someone at point, the best way, as others have posted, (proned out, ankles crossed, palms up, etc...) should allow you to reholster and keep your hand on your gun. Cops show up, all you have to do is gently let go and your hands are empty, no sudden moves or noises required.

If you can't do this, you need to rethink your carry gear. If you don't think that you could react with your hand on your sidearm to an assault cue by a perp who is properly positioned (face down, crucifix, knuckles down, etc. etc...) you need to practice the draw some more.

Again, I'm no expert, but the classes that I have take from folks that are have given some good advice on how to mitigate a lousy situation. It's a subject worth talking about with folks who know what they are doing.

Again, JMO.

 

[GEM]

And I still maintain criminals don't work alone. There are probably people with him you don't even know about. If you don't see them yet, assume +1.

Ken, is that why the nice blonde lady at the NTI shot me in the back after I had so smoothly center punched the bat wielding BG? Who was her boyfriend?

Ouch - it was a lesson.

Also, there is a tendency for folks to want the world to be dichotomous when situations are multicausal and complex. I'm dropping the gun. However, I've been 'shot' by an LEO just because I was moving around as an innocent in a rampage shooter simulation.

GEM

 

[super b_AK]

Just a suggestion from a noob. It seems that different departments all train differently, why not call the local authority and ask? Even if there are different departments (state vs local) there will likely be some local similarity's.

I am sure they wouldn't mind the question.

Also IMHO you shouldn't be drawing your weapon to diffuse a situation. If you feel the need to use force it should be deadly. If you draw and they back down both parties should be slowly retreating in the opposite directions, when you are safe call the police and give a description of the incident and perpetrator.

All trying to hold them does is give more opportunities for the situation to go wrong.

I am assuming you are not in your house, that would be the only place I would think to try holding them in the first place.

 

[mbt2001]

Asking sounds great, but remember cops talk to all kinds. For instance, my neighbor is one of those guys who has "trespassers will be shot, survivors shot again" stickers all over his house. You don't want to sound like one of those or come off that way. Calling and asking police what their SOP is for a gun scenario / shooting scenario is likely to draw an unpleasant response.

If the cops respond, obey their commands. They will cuff you. Be quite, wait for them to talk with you, when they do stick with the facts. You have the right to have an attorney present in all dealings with the police. You have the right NOT to answer questions. You need to know that anything you say, will go into a report and possibly and indictment. Bearing that in mind, don't assume anything.

"I came home. There was a man in my house. I drew my weapon, ordered him to the ground. I contacted police. I covered the suspect and waited for your arrival. I did not see anyone else in connection with this, so I do not know if more people were involved."

They will ask some other questions, but the above are the facts. No opinions, no inferences, no statements that can be taken out of context. Fate will decide the rest.

 

[Gouranga]

First, know the laws in your state. In NC you absolutely cannot legally hold the criminal at gun point for the police to arrive. You end the threat, after that using deadly force, is not longer legal. Deadly force includes pointing the weapon. SO in NC I would say he drops his weapon you point yours at the ground and tell him to scoot. Then call the police immediately if you have not. Let them know you are armed and have a CCW/permit.

If you can reholster the weapon before police address you WITHOUT pointing it in their direction, do so. If not point it in the air straight up (without point it at them or in their direction) until given the command in how to proceed. Repeat their instructions to them as you are complying (Officer: "Drop the weapon!", You: "I am dropping my weapon" calmly. Don't make fast sudden movements but make deliberate (not too slow movements).

 

[mbt2001]

In NC you absolutely cannot legally hold the criminal at gun point for the police to arrive.

Citizen's arrest is a traditionally usually respected. I am not sure what else you are supposed to do with a criminal if you can't claim self defense because he is complying, but you can't "hold him"... Seems like a paradox...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest

United States
Each state, with the exception of North Carolina, permits citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including but not limited to any infringement of another's rights.[32]

Though North Carolina General Statutes have no provision for citizens' arrests, detention by private persons is permitted and applies to both civilians and police officers outside their jurisdiction.[33] Detention is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property.[34] Detention is different from an arrest in that in a detention the detainee may not be transported without consent.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There may well be precedents in NC case law dating back to Sir Walter Raleigh. This state has a 400-year-old Fibber McGee's closet of legal tangles that I don't think has ever been cleaned out. No telling what you'd find if you rummaged around...

lpl

 

[Kleanbore]

Each state, with the exception of North Carolina, permits citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police. ....Though North Carolina General Statutes have no provision for citizens' arrests, detention by private persons is permitted and applies to both civilians and police officers outside their jurisdiction.[33] Detention is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property.

All true, but far more limited is the provision to use deadly force for the purpose of preventing escape. It is permitted in some jurisdictions under some circumstances, but in other circumstances, and in many jurisdictions, should the perp decide to leave, you may not shoot. If he has a lengthy record, he may well know the details better than most homeowners.

American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including but not limited to any infringement of another's rights.

Therein lies the rub. You could lose everything--that has happened. All downside, no upside.

 

[GRIZ22]

If I didn't have the opportunity to call in a description of myself and the situation, when LEO arrived I would yell things like, "I'm the homerowner and this guy broke in." "This guy tried to rob me." "This guy theatened to kill me and pulled a knife." Basically, I would explain what he did to provoke me to draw a gun. I would also inform them that I have a concealed carry permit. Not too many bad guys have those. Then I would follow every command without delay. I may not drop the gun for fear it might go off and that would lead to bad reactions. I know that's very uncommon with most modern weapons. I might be tempted to drop the magazine and lock the slide back, but that depends on the level of intensity shown by the officers.



If you try to do all this you will most likely be shot before you get half of your explanation out. I retired after 31 years as a LE firearms and tactics instructor. Most of that time I worked in plainclothes. Many of my coworkers have had to drop guns and get proned out when they were arresting someone and uniformed officers showed up at the scene. I would tell my students if uniforms arrive they are in charge until it all gets sorted out.

I might be tempted to drop the magazine and lock the slide back, but that depends on the level of intensity shown by the officers.


This may be construed as charging the weapon.

jscott has given some pretty good advice here which I won't rehash.

 

[zxcvbob]

You can do everything right and when the cop shows up he still shoots you -- it happened recently in Arizona. If you know the cops are on the way, and you haven't shot the bad guy, tell him the cops are coming and he better run.

 

[Kleanbore]

You can do everything right and when the cop shows up he still shoots you -- it happened recently in Arizona. If you know the cops are on the way, and you haven't shot the bad guy, tell him the cops are coming and he better run.

That's the incident I mentioned in Post #30--I had remembered it as having occurred in Colorado.

Actually, that incidence gives credence to the argument that holding a gun on someone when the police arrive is not "doing everything right." You said something similar in Post #3.

 

[dayid]

[...] North Carolina [...] Deadly force includes pointing the weapon.

What statute defines deadly force in this manner?

 

[strambo]

Local officers I know, including instructors, tell me that in their video training, if the gun does not drop immediately, the correct action is to shoot--instantly and repeatedly, or the trainee fails.

Have you seen or participated in, this training yourself? The reason I ask is because there is a detail not in evidence that is CRITICAL!

In this training is the person with the gun...pointing it at, or near the officer? Are the scenario(s) set up to get an armed suspect ("bad guy", "perp") to comply?

Armed citizens are rare indeed, it wouldn't pay to spend a lot of training time on officers dealing with armed good guys (though some is needed to avoid "blue on blue" and "blue on green" (citizen) incidents.

As Jscott put it so well, the actions of a "good guy" citizen are a lot different than a bad guy. Doesn't mean mistakes can't happen, but his advice of (if you didn't holster prior to arrival) slowly, but immediately complying, realizing you never pointed your gun at or anywhere near the cops to begin with, seems like sound advice to me.

If I'm in a training scenario and someone is pointing a gun at me and/or turning towards me with one, and/or obviously the bad guy, yes,not dropping it/complying post-haste would earn return fire.

 

[Deanimator]

SO in NC I would say he drops his weapon you point yours at the ground and tell him to scoot.

An EXCEPTIONALLY bad idea.

He's already threatened you with deadly force, so his malice isn't in question. At 52, my X-Ray vision isn't so good. I don't know how many other firearms or other weapons he might have on him. I haven't the slightest intention of finding out with my firearm pointed where it'll do me no good if that happens.

While I'm certainly not going to try to keep him around, I will keep my firearm trained on him until he's gone.