JohnBiltz
Member
What bad guy? I just shot him. Reread the first post.
What should you do with your gun after a justified shooting?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Shot guy may be dead, though that's not by any means a sure thing. Most gunshot wounds are not only survivable, but are not even immediately life-threatening.
May be unconscious (temporarily).
May have fallen in shock, and then discovered that his wounds were not so compelling as first believed, and so is now waiting for an opportunity to resume hostilities.
And, as said several times before, his buddy is very probably waiting for the perfect moment to make good his own attack.
Until the police have arrived and taken over, don't let down your defenses.
TimM
Member
I can see possibilities for this going sideways. If you shoot the perp first (before cuffing him) I can hear this scenario coming up in court... "He hand cuffed me. And while I was cuffed he shot me."
xcgates
Member
I'll be the either fully-naked scrawny white guy, or only wearing pants, that will necessitate a liberal dosing of the poor LEOs with eye-bleach.
Really? I'm not going to be attempting to detain anyone, if they are still around it's because they have had the crap scared out of them, or they are to injured to move. Don't have a handgun for home defense currently, so when the cops show up, it is time to drop the shotgun. One way or another, they can open the door, and I would really NOT be holding a gun when they see me. I know how fast decisions have to be made, and it is way to easy to mis-read a situation.
If they ask, (I don't know) I'll open the front door very, very slowly, show my hands, and inform them that I am the only legitimate resident in my house, so anyone else should be viewed with suspicion.
Not sure about what to do with the shotgun in that last case though. Safe it, then tuck it away in the closet? Probably not a good idea to leave it inside, but I really would not want to walk out of house with a gun in front of adrenaline filled cops.
Really? I'm not going to be attempting to detain anyone, if they are still around it's because they have had the crap scared out of them, or they are to injured to move. Don't have a handgun for home defense currently, so when the cops show up, it is time to drop the shotgun. One way or another, they can open the door, and I would really NOT be holding a gun when they see me. I know how fast decisions have to be made, and it is way to easy to mis-read a situation.
If they ask, (I don't know) I'll open the front door very, very slowly, show my hands, and inform them that I am the only legitimate resident in my house, so anyone else should be viewed with suspicion.
Not sure about what to do with the shotgun in that last case though. Safe it, then tuck it away in the closet? Probably not a good idea to leave it inside, but I really would not want to walk out of house with a gun in front of adrenaline filled cops.
Old krow
Member
FWIW, I asked the PD (this specific scenario) where I live and was told that it's SOP here.
Yeah, me too, but, I don't see that being the most likely event in my case. Perhaps the best thing that I could do would be to go over this with the kids.
I don't mean to put a morbid spin on this, but, there are 2 people that don't want me to have a gun. There are 2 people that I am worried about killing me. The BG is worried about 2 people killing him/her. The cop doesn't want anyone to have a gun. Seems like there's too many people at this party. It would appear that we're creating, or have created, a scenario where reducing the number to 2 is in everyone's best interest.
armoredman
Member
People survive multiple bullet wounds regularly, and as for cuffing, I have done cuffing on violent felons on the yards, and TRUST me, that is the LAST thing you want to try to do by yourself, especially trying to keep your sidearm from being taken from you. BAD juju, don't try it.
leadcounsel
member
Have the gun handy in a nonthreatening manner. When the LEO get there, communicate with them and take all directions slowly and deliberately from them.
Prior to the LEO arriving, don't leave the gun unattended even if think the threat has been neutralized or left.
Once I heard a gunshot behind my urban home in Aurora Colorado. I *foolishly* grabbed the 12 gauge and went to investigate. Some punk had shot the neighbors dog (which they had stupidly kept penned up right next to the sidewalk) with a .22. I was standing on the porch with my 12 gauge talking to the neighbors when 3 police cars pulled up and 3 officers exited the cars and drew down on me!!! I communicated and slowly laid down the shotty and kept my hands up. One officer came up and retrieved and unloaded the shotty. I was asked a few quick questions and eliminated as a threat and they gave me the shotty and shells, told me not to load it and they went about with their investigation.
Prior to the LEO arriving, don't leave the gun unattended even if think the threat has been neutralized or left.
Once I heard a gunshot behind my urban home in Aurora Colorado. I *foolishly* grabbed the 12 gauge and went to investigate. Some punk had shot the neighbors dog (which they had stupidly kept penned up right next to the sidewalk) with a .22. I was standing on the porch with my 12 gauge talking to the neighbors when 3 police cars pulled up and 3 officers exited the cars and drew down on me!!! I communicated and slowly laid down the shotty and kept my hands up. One officer came up and retrieved and unloaded the shotty. I was asked a few quick questions and eliminated as a threat and they gave me the shotty and shells, told me not to load it and they went about with their investigation.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Bad idea. Real bad idea.
Pointless, and an invitation to make a bad choice. (See above!)
Eh, I'd rather keep it in my hands where I need it -- in the event that Bad Guy 1 decides he's not hurt badly enough to stay put, or Bad Guy 2 decides to pop in from the side room or out of the closet or whatever.
Now THAT's a good idea. Either you or someone on your side should be talking to the dispatcher right up until the officers are entering the room. If you can't keep a hand on the gun and phone, put them on speaker-phone. Communication goes a long way to establishing yourself as the invaded party, and toward not getting shot.
788Ham
Member
What to do with your gun after justified shooting? Pretty simple, reload if empty! Seriously, wait until PD shows up, if they announce themselves, tell them you're the homeowner and are armed, if you haven't already informed dispatcher to let them know. As officers approach the front door/whichever door, lay your piece down and step away from it and raise your hands.
I'm fortunate in that regard, 3 years ago I attended a Citizens Police Academy for 6 weeks, there is a lg sticker attached to the front door attesting to that, they have graduates home addresses, phone#'s in their computer, it shows whenever I contact them for anything. This might allow me some latitude when they arrive, I don't know for sure, nothing cast in stone!
I'm fortunate in that regard, 3 years ago I attended a Citizens Police Academy for 6 weeks, there is a lg sticker attached to the front door attesting to that, they have graduates home addresses, phone#'s in their computer, it shows whenever I contact them for anything. This might allow me some latitude when they arrive, I don't know for sure, nothing cast in stone!
In this situation, I would reholster, concealed, if I feared other threats. And I'd try to meet police outside the house, maybe standing/sitting on the porch with both hand clearly visible and facing the direction the police would approach from.
Just last year a homeowner was shot in Maricopa County in a similar situation. In this case, the homeowner was in the house, gun in one hand, phone in the other. The intruder wasn't dead; apparently he ran into a bedroom and was staying put. Homeowner was on the phone with 911 and had described the situation well before the police arrived. Not only that, the wife greeted the police outside the home to describe the situation and to stress to the police that her husband had a gun.
Well, apparently the police who entered had been chasing a suspect earlier whose back of the head looked similar enough to the homeowner's that one of them started shooting first and asking questions later. IIRC, he was shot 6 times in the back, and the officer's own words (recorded by the call) made it seem like he hadn't even seen the gun at that point. The whole encounter, including a lot of the aftermath, was recorded on the 911 call.
Just last year a homeowner was shot in Maricopa County in a similar situation. In this case, the homeowner was in the house, gun in one hand, phone in the other. The intruder wasn't dead; apparently he ran into a bedroom and was staying put. Homeowner was on the phone with 911 and had described the situation well before the police arrived. Not only that, the wife greeted the police outside the home to describe the situation and to stress to the police that her husband had a gun.
Well, apparently the police who entered had been chasing a suspect earlier whose back of the head looked similar enough to the homeowner's that one of them started shooting first and asking questions later. IIRC, he was shot 6 times in the back, and the officer's own words (recorded by the call) made it seem like he hadn't even seen the gun at that point. The whole encounter, including a lot of the aftermath, was recorded on the 911 call.
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mustang_steve
Member
About handcuffs....why do you wish to approach a wounded yet violent indivudual?
What makes you think that the criminal won't try to pull you in and shank you when you get close? What if he had a "get off me" gun hidden somewhere?
Honestly, I'd leave him be, but if he gets up, so long as he does not face me AND leaves, no problem. If he tries to be difficult, I'll have to deal with that obstacle as it happens.
What makes you think that the criminal won't try to pull you in and shank you when you get close? What if he had a "get off me" gun hidden somewhere?
Honestly, I'd leave him be, but if he gets up, so long as he does not face me AND leaves, no problem. If he tries to be difficult, I'll have to deal with that obstacle as it happens.
SAM1911 said:
em..... no. If you've been involved in an emotional upheaval (like using your gun on a live human being) the last thing you want is a word by word recording of whatever comes out of your mouth. How do you know what you are going to say? And how do you know how that will be interpreted later? Obviously you don't and what you say (or don't say) immediately afterwards can be extremely important. Tell the 911 dispatcher 5 things:
1. Your Name
2. Address
3. Shots Fired
4. Send Police
5. Send Medical Attention (VERY IMPORTANT to establish your lack of culpability)
Then hang up the phone
When police are involved in a shooting they are cautioned not to say anything until they have talked to legal council. It seems obvious that you should avail yourself of the same strategy. What you say cannot help you - but it can hurt you significantly.
Not necessarily the best idea, but the subject has been discussed extensively here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=532286 .AZ_Rebel said:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Certainly raises some important points, but misses a few others. You do need to give them as much identifying info as possible so they have some idea of which gun-totin' guy is the "good guy" when they show up. Etc. etc. All that was covered in post 2.
If you want to hang up so they don't hear the event take place or your thoughts on it, that might be a reasonable worry. What they hear over the phone can help collaborate the evidence on scene, too, though. Of course, you don't want to be giving the dispatcher a statement about the crime. Just help them get to you and know who you are when they do.
HorseSoldier
Member
That may or may not pay dividends legally speaking -- but it radically increases the risk to you from law enforcement officers arriving on scene and would raise suspicions.
Having been in this scenario on the other side of it as an LEO rolling into the situation, I can tell you the way it normally goes down is when a 911 call comes in involving one or more weapons you don't have the full story and you're making decisions based on whatever partial story you have. And you're doing it while racing towards the scene with dispatch putting out information as fast as call takers can collect it, but the stories already may be contradictory and sometimes the supposed victim or good guy when the call comes in turns out to be the aggressor. All you know is that the situation already has one or more firearms in play.
Now, while that is going on, the call taker working the 911 line will keep the caller on the phone so they can continue to develop information about the situation to feed to responding officers (and paramedics if they're en route). At the same time, the call taker is feeding information to you -- like telling you officers are arriving, they need you to come out, or they're coming in, or whatever.
If you hang up, they'll recall immediately. If you've just called in about a violent encounter and can't be reached on recall, the collective pucker factor just went up dramatically. Without communication, the arriving officers have no way of knowing what's going on -- for all they know you may actually be the aggressor who's now gearing up for suicide by cop, or your assailant may have just gotten back into the fight and overpowered you, just to name a couple of the million possible scenarios. But your silence definitely means officers are now not only coming into a call involving weapons but intelligence about the lay of the land and situation just went south.
Uncertain situations involving firearms are a nasty recipe for lethal force to get used -- for better or for worse. So, I don't know -- you can hang up if you think that's the right thing to do, but do so with the knowledge that by doing so you're increasing your risk of some sort of tragic situation developing. By going silent you're also creating a span of unaccounted for time that an over zealous DA or a plaintiff's attorney can project any number of action into. Hanging up and then not answering on recall looks pretty sketchy and is very unusual for the way things usually go and I'd think a good lawyer could make a whole lot of that silence in a wrongful death suit.
sidheshooter
Member
^^^That strikes me as a very good post.
black_powder_Rob
Member
I have allways thought that staying on the line with 911 is the best idea. they will let you know when the police have arrived and can take important details like who else is in the house with you (ie. other family members and what not). Also as far as being shot by the cops coming into the house while you hold an intruder at gun point is not likley if you follow their instructions.
ColdDeadHand
Member
IMO,
What to do with your firearm after a justified shooting: top off the magazine.
Then you should probably holster, if you feel it's safe enough. When Blue shows up they are going to be screwed up pretty tight either way, so I'm betting your chances of getting shot are about even, whether the gun's in your hand or on the ground.
Don't make any sudden movements, hands in plain sight...
What to do with your firearm after a justified shooting: top off the magazine.
Then you should probably holster, if you feel it's safe enough. When Blue shows up they are going to be screwed up pretty tight either way, so I'm betting your chances of getting shot are about even, whether the gun's in your hand or on the ground.
Don't make any sudden movements, hands in plain sight...
Reloaderharry
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So someone else has called the police, and reported gunfire in your home, where you have just shot someone.
Assuming you cannot make it to a phone to call 911 and tell them whats going on, I still don't see any situation where your getting shot by the police.
The police are not going to enter your house like a ninja. They are going to be making ALOT of noise, pulling up with lights/siren going, and entering the house yelling "police" and whatnot. At the point where the police enter, I would have the firearm holstered/down and my hands where they can be seen. Your going to be asked to get down for a cuffing, and you should do it immediately.
If your in a room where you cannot be seen when they enter, I would be stating loudly where you are and what the situation is (I'm in the back, I need help back here"). In fact, even if you can be seen I would be stating the obvious (I'm over here, I need help) Surprising a police officer at this point would be a very bad idea, and they arn't shooting someone asking for help, gun or no gun.
Edit: I have a real hard time seeing the police simply coming in with guns blazing. This is simply not procedure, and from the complete lack of stories in the news of homeowners being shot after a situation like this should be evidence enough. Unless your simply trying to get shot by being stupid I would say your chances are nearly zero.
Assuming you cannot make it to a phone to call 911 and tell them whats going on, I still don't see any situation where your getting shot by the police.
The police are not going to enter your house like a ninja. They are going to be making ALOT of noise, pulling up with lights/siren going, and entering the house yelling "police" and whatnot. At the point where the police enter, I would have the firearm holstered/down and my hands where they can be seen. Your going to be asked to get down for a cuffing, and you should do it immediately.
If your in a room where you cannot be seen when they enter, I would be stating loudly where you are and what the situation is (I'm in the back, I need help back here"). In fact, even if you can be seen I would be stating the obvious (I'm over here, I need help) Surprising a police officer at this point would be a very bad idea, and they arn't shooting someone asking for help, gun or no gun.
Edit: I have a real hard time seeing the police simply coming in with guns blazing. This is simply not procedure, and from the complete lack of stories in the news of homeowners being shot after a situation like this should be evidence enough. Unless your simply trying to get shot by being stupid I would say your chances are nearly zero.
IBEWBULL
Member
I see a lot of good advise on this thresd and hope no one ever needs deal with these problems.
In the past when I called the sherriffs office if I were armed it was with a holstered weapon. Niight encounters when roused from sleeping can be a problem.
An IWB won't work with a pair of skivies. slipping a shoulder holster on can be an option but reholstering is not a 1 handed operation.
So much depends on the community you live in, I am in the country and my last call was over the Scottish Highland bull which charged me on our property.
After a warning shot to scare him off a bit he just looked at me unimpressed. He did change his path and retreat.
I am glad he did as I felt underarmed with a 629 S&W.
I will stay in the country and pray for you city folks.
With our poor economic conditions the crime wave has reached more into the country than before. I still like the SS 12 gauge the sight from the front can be a determining factor in someone deciding to do the right thing, LEAVE.
Well I guess I woll stop beating this dead horse,most things were covered here by now.
In the past when I called the sherriffs office if I were armed it was with a holstered weapon. Niight encounters when roused from sleeping can be a problem.
An IWB won't work with a pair of skivies. slipping a shoulder holster on can be an option but reholstering is not a 1 handed operation.
So much depends on the community you live in, I am in the country and my last call was over the Scottish Highland bull which charged me on our property.
After a warning shot to scare him off a bit he just looked at me unimpressed. He did change his path and retreat.
I am glad he did as I felt underarmed with a 629 S&W.
I will stay in the country and pray for you city folks.
With our poor economic conditions the crime wave has reached more into the country than before. I still like the SS 12 gauge the sight from the front can be a determining factor in someone deciding to do the right thing, LEAVE.
Well I guess I woll stop beating this dead horse,most things were covered here by now.
Carl N. Brown
Member
First three hits on homeowner police shooting 2009 "Maricopa County"
I would not say it does not happen.
I have handled firearms around local cops without being shot. After reading a lot of stories about how cops have reacted in other jurisdictions, I do not know what to think. I will say this: (a) half of the self-defense incidents recounted to me by individuals were not reported to police, and (b) people tell me calling the cops can cause more harm than good. The cops were called when my sister detained a car burglar at gun point; family members described the situation to 911 so the responding officers did not arrive into an unknown situation.
I would not say it does not happen.
I have handled firearms around local cops without being shot. After reading a lot of stories about how cops have reacted in other jurisdictions, I do not know what to think. I will say this: (a) half of the self-defense incidents recounted to me by individuals were not reported to police, and (b) people tell me calling the cops can cause more harm than good. The cops were called when my sister detained a car burglar at gun point; family members described the situation to 911 so the responding officers did not arrive into an unknown situation.
Reloaderharry
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Edit: Found the incident on google.
I would like to hear what was happening on the 911 tape as the police entered, you can only hear the first part of the call, and then after the guy has been shot (minutes later). Gonna go out on a limb here and say he was not being as vocal when they entered the home as after he was shot, espcially since the reports say he was in a "back bedroom" and they had to search the house "for about a minute" for the suspect and homeowner.
So far as the police not making noise, they ALWAYS identify themselves as they enter. Even on a no knock warrant being served, as the door is coming down they are yelling "Police, get down" etc etc. This is evidenced by all the no knock videos released by lawyers in cases suing departments over no knock incidents.
Police don't creep into your house and sneak around corners looking for someone to shoot. The theory is to hit it like a hurricane, both in noise and speed, and clear the sucker.
So you will KNOW when the police arrive. If your not LOUDLY making yourself known to them as they arrive in LOUD and plain english, then yes I suppose there is a chance your getting shot. If your being obvious as to what is going on and complying with orders? No. A officer enters the house, hears someone telling them where they are, that they have a gun on the intruder, and they need help, and he decides to shoot first and ask questions later anyway? I don't think so.
I would like to hear what was happening on the 911 tape as the police entered, you can only hear the first part of the call, and then after the guy has been shot (minutes later). Gonna go out on a limb here and say he was not being as vocal when they entered the home as after he was shot, espcially since the reports say he was in a "back bedroom" and they had to search the house "for about a minute" for the suspect and homeowner.
So far as the police not making noise, they ALWAYS identify themselves as they enter. Even on a no knock warrant being served, as the door is coming down they are yelling "Police, get down" etc etc. This is evidenced by all the no knock videos released by lawyers in cases suing departments over no knock incidents.
Police don't creep into your house and sneak around corners looking for someone to shoot. The theory is to hit it like a hurricane, both in noise and speed, and clear the sucker.
So you will KNOW when the police arrive. If your not LOUDLY making yourself known to them as they arrive in LOUD and plain english, then yes I suppose there is a chance your getting shot. If your being obvious as to what is going on and complying with orders? No. A officer enters the house, hears someone telling them where they are, that they have a gun on the intruder, and they need help, and he decides to shoot first and ask questions later anyway? I don't think so.
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The 911 operator might be great and relay information to the responders quickly and accurately. Worst case, the 911 operators might be two-job working college students who were napping until you called. Your operator might just have woken from a vivid dream, and might be getting your problem confused with the last one. Assume the worst, that a few facts will be forgotten or mixed up in the retelling.
If you say "I'm polka-dot, the bad guys were in camouflage" and the cops are told "the good guy is in camouflage and the bad guys are polka-dot", if you're holding a gun near a bleeding corpse that is also holding a gun, the Sun will rise and the Sun will set before everything is sorted out and you are free to go.
If you say "I'm polka-dot, the bad guys were in camouflage" and the cops are told "the good guy is in camouflage and the bad guys are polka-dot", if you're holding a gun near a bleeding corpse that is also holding a gun, the Sun will rise and the Sun will set before everything is sorted out and you are free to go.
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