aka108
Member
Arsenal, Inc. out of Las Vegas or Vector out of SLC, UT. Arsenals will run 650 to over a grand and Vectors in the 500 dollar area.
Types of AK47s.
- Thread starter Rasputin747
- Start date
- Status
I love a good AK rifle. It is my preferred battle rifle since they are so incredibly reliable, reasonably light-weight, well built models are quite accurate, and the ammo (7.62x39, 5.45) is relatively cheap. These are certain things that will help you learn what you need to know about AKs. You can Google these items and learn much more about them by reading all the web pages that pop up.
1. milled vs forged receivers
2. chrome lined vs non-chromed bore (chrome is much, much better)
3. single stack vs double stack
4. varying quality of US made parts for 922r compliance
5. varying quality of different folding stocks
6. different calibers (7.62x38, 5.45, .223)
7. different mags types (steel, polymer, waffles, slab side, bakelite, 20-40 rounders, etc)
8. Methods for scoping AKs, if that is something you want to do. I don't, personally.
9. last but certainly not least, the US parts needed for forged and stamped receivers to be 922r compliant.
Here would be a great one to start with. I can't believe that they are up so high now. A few years ago you could have gotten this SAR for $300-350. But this is an excellent rifle to start with.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=272601
Just to give you an idea of what can be had, I've shown this off more than once, but here are my AKs.
http://www.jasonphillips.org/offsite/AKbros.jpg
The SLR-95 on the left hasn't been imported into the US in quite a while. It was brought in by Arsenal and has a Bulgarian milled receiver with a chrome lined bore. It came with a thumbhole stock originally. I put a K-Var stock set on it and I bought 4 sets of FSE mag followers and floor plates to get the required number of US Parts that I need (5). That way I didn't have to replace the trigger assembly, as the one that comes with the SLR-95 is very nice with a very clean trigger pull and break. I then replaced the K-VAR stock with an Ace folder and I replaced the stock sight with a Mojo peep sight. I love this thing. I bought it about 4 years ago from WildAlaska for $425 and the other costs were K-Var stock set: $100, Ace Stock: $150, Mojo sight: $45, FSE parts: $20. So I have about $730 into the rifle and it's worth every penny. Acceptably accurate for an AK (about 4-5 MOA), excellent fit and finish, excellent parts quality, and of course utter reliability.
The VEPR on the right is a typical VEPRk in 7.62x39. These were based on the RPK with a heavier forged receiver with walls that are 1.5 times the thickness of a normal forged receiver. It has a chrome lined barrel as well. Many of the parts are not standard AK parts though, so if one breaks, I will probably need to get it milled as parts availability is really up in the air now. But I have never heard of anyone having this problem, ever. The rifle hasn't been imported for a while now. Atlantic Arms was trying to start importing them again but I'm not sure if they have been successful yet. These rifles have a reputation for being very accurate for an AK. I can get 4 MOA consistently. The trigger has very smooth travel and breaks very cleanly. I picked this one up for about $400 two years ago with a PSOP scope (that I sold).
I don't scope my AKs. I shoot only slightly worse without a scope at 100 yards (like 1-2 more MOA) so I don't see the need for it. I would put a scope on a nice bolt rifle, I have never seen the benefit of putting scopes on battlerifles.
1. milled vs forged receivers
2. chrome lined vs non-chromed bore (chrome is much, much better)
3. single stack vs double stack
4. varying quality of US made parts for 922r compliance
5. varying quality of different folding stocks
6. different calibers (7.62x38, 5.45, .223)
7. different mags types (steel, polymer, waffles, slab side, bakelite, 20-40 rounders, etc)
8. Methods for scoping AKs, if that is something you want to do. I don't, personally.
9. last but certainly not least, the US parts needed for forged and stamped receivers to be 922r compliant.
Here would be a great one to start with. I can't believe that they are up so high now. A few years ago you could have gotten this SAR for $300-350. But this is an excellent rifle to start with.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=272601
Just to give you an idea of what can be had, I've shown this off more than once, but here are my AKs.
http://www.jasonphillips.org/offsite/AKbros.jpg
The SLR-95 on the left hasn't been imported into the US in quite a while. It was brought in by Arsenal and has a Bulgarian milled receiver with a chrome lined bore. It came with a thumbhole stock originally. I put a K-Var stock set on it and I bought 4 sets of FSE mag followers and floor plates to get the required number of US Parts that I need (5). That way I didn't have to replace the trigger assembly, as the one that comes with the SLR-95 is very nice with a very clean trigger pull and break. I then replaced the K-VAR stock with an Ace folder and I replaced the stock sight with a Mojo peep sight. I love this thing. I bought it about 4 years ago from WildAlaska for $425 and the other costs were K-Var stock set: $100, Ace Stock: $150, Mojo sight: $45, FSE parts: $20. So I have about $730 into the rifle and it's worth every penny. Acceptably accurate for an AK (about 4-5 MOA), excellent fit and finish, excellent parts quality, and of course utter reliability.
The VEPR on the right is a typical VEPRk in 7.62x39. These were based on the RPK with a heavier forged receiver with walls that are 1.5 times the thickness of a normal forged receiver. It has a chrome lined barrel as well. Many of the parts are not standard AK parts though, so if one breaks, I will probably need to get it milled as parts availability is really up in the air now. But I have never heard of anyone having this problem, ever. The rifle hasn't been imported for a while now. Atlantic Arms was trying to start importing them again but I'm not sure if they have been successful yet. These rifles have a reputation for being very accurate for an AK. I can get 4 MOA consistently. The trigger has very smooth travel and breaks very cleanly. I picked this one up for about $400 two years ago with a PSOP scope (that I sold).
I don't scope my AKs. I shoot only slightly worse without a scope at 100 yards (like 1-2 more MOA) so I don't see the need for it. I would put a scope on a nice bolt rifle, I have never seen the benefit of putting scopes on battlerifles.
possum
Member
great idea, i was wanting one in .223 anyway and the more that's out there the better chance we got right!
glockman19
Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2007
- Messages
- 3,700
If you're interested in a AK-47 then you owe it to yourself to stop by and check out the AK-14 board of AR15.com at:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=4
they have sections dedicated to the questions you're asking in addition to sections on Bulguarian, Chineese, Egyptian, Hungarian, Krinkov, Polish, Romanian, Russian:AK, VEPR, Saiga, & Dragunov, SKS and Yugoslavian.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=4
they have sections dedicated to the questions you're asking in addition to sections on Bulguarian, Chineese, Egyptian, Hungarian, Krinkov, Polish, Romanian, Russian:AK, VEPR, Saiga, & Dragunov, SKS and Yugoslavian.
cbsbyte
Member
The other day, I saw two CAI Romanian AKs in a gun store, and all I can say is they looked very crude compared to a Yugo SKS.The rifles looked like they where slapped together with salvaged parts by untrained monkeys. Nothing fit right, the finish looked half ass, the wood looked like scrap building materials, and their where a lot of sharp edges. Even the sights did not line up properly. Maybe these guns work fine, but they are pretty awful looking.
I just wish I'd purchased more of 'em back in the day...
I paid $269.95 for my Bulgarian SLR-95 back in 1997. I paid $250 for my Romanian SAR-1 when they showed up. Now look at what they go for. Not necessarily a guaranteed investment like mutual funds or other commodities, but who would've thought?
My awful-looking SAR-1:
I paid $269.95 for my Bulgarian SLR-95 back in 1997. I paid $250 for my Romanian SAR-1 when they showed up. Now look at what they go for. Not necessarily a guaranteed investment like mutual funds or other commodities, but who would've thought?
My awful-looking SAR-1:
Rasputin747
Member
Well, here is my price range. I can go up to $450, maybe $500. If the Chinese models are very well produced, then I will consider. I want an affordable, reliable AK model weapon. Something like a starter. I do plan on buying a very nice AK rifle later, but I just wanted one to like get me started on the rifle to learn the parts, variations, etc.
Nightcrawler
Member
Hehe, but I bet it will shoot 10,000 rounds no problem after being dropped in the sand, mud and ditch-water regularly.
Not necessarily. My friend bought a Hesse-converted Saiga 7.62x39. It sometimes would fire three-round-bursts, and other times the hammer wouldn't recock upon firing the weapon.
I've seen a badly-converted WASR-10s that you could BARELY get the magazines in an out of the well, since it was cut so roughly.
All I'm saying is if you're going to buy one of the Romanians, inspect it before you buy it if you can, and avoid anything from Hesse or Vulcan Arms.
Nightcrawler
Member
Not necessarily. Most of the Romanians are rough, but functional. You just need to be careful and check them out when you buy. Depending on how hung-over the "gunsmith" at Century was when it was converted, you can get a very decent rifle or a rough and crappy one. The only problems I've personally experienced with Romanians are the aforementioned rough magazine well and horrid trigger slap. Stories of canted front sight towers can be found on the 'net too, but I've not seen one in person.
The problem with the Hesse and Vulcan guns is that the people building/converting them do about the worst job imaginable. I mean, teenagers in Kabul could build you a nicer AK for twenty bucks.
With the Romanians, there usually isn't anything wrong with them that can't be fixed with a little bit of tweaking and elbow grease. If you want, you can send it to a place like Azex Arms for a "redo", but you're going up in price this way. A lot of the roughness is cosmetic; a change in furniture makes a big improvement, and the mag well and other rough parts will usually wear in with use. Trigger slap can be fixed with a Tapco or Red Star Arms replacement trigger group.
Rasputin747
Member
Hm, with the thigns I've seen in here, I like the Bulgarian. However, like I said, price is a big factor. It's all depending on how much I get for graduation. My estimate is around $1,000. So I would have half to spend, and the other half I would save. That leaves approx. $500 for my AK.
As Nightcrawler said, "The quality of the AK you get depends on who builds it.".
A big thing to consider is the receiver used in the build. One thing to look for is a dimple above the mag well on both sides of the receiver. If the receiver doesnt have this you're inevitably going to experience mag wooble. The dimple(recess) is there to stabilize the mag.
Two good US made receivers I know of are Nodakspud(DCI) and Ewbank Omega. Both use 4130 or spring steel, and both are furnace hardened to 40 rockwell hardness. Just like the Soviet military standard bureau said they should be. Check the stamp on the bottom of the receiver. If the AK you're buying is using a receiver made by either outfit, its a quality receiver. I've used both receivers for builds.
Check out classicarms.us , It looks like he has some decent yugo's for sale. The tactical AK's he has look weak, but the Yugo's look solid. Call him and ask what receivers were used on the Yugo's. For under $500 its a great price if the build is up to snuff.
A big thing to consider is the receiver used in the build. One thing to look for is a dimple above the mag well on both sides of the receiver. If the receiver doesnt have this you're inevitably going to experience mag wooble. The dimple(recess) is there to stabilize the mag.
Two good US made receivers I know of are Nodakspud(DCI) and Ewbank Omega. Both use 4130 or spring steel, and both are furnace hardened to 40 rockwell hardness. Just like the Soviet military standard bureau said they should be. Check the stamp on the bottom of the receiver. If the AK you're buying is using a receiver made by either outfit, its a quality receiver. I've used both receivers for builds.
Check out classicarms.us , It looks like he has some decent yugo's for sale. The tactical AK's he has look weak, but the Yugo's look solid. Call him and ask what receivers were used on the Yugo's. For under $500 its a great price if the build is up to snuff.
BADUNAME13
Member
Sid, you said:
Actually the 'rough spots' are the US workers at century's fault. Real AKM's do not have these problems.
-Judging by the Hundreds???? I've seen.
If I had $500 to spend:
-$340 on a WASR10 with the G2 trigger already installed. (Comes with 2 mags)
-6 mags (~$10 each)
-$100 worth of ammo. (Ya gatta shoot it) (Might chip in an extra $50 or so for a whole case)
Actually the 'rough spots' are the US workers at century's fault. Real AKM's do not have these problems.
-Judging by the Hundreds???? I've seen.
If I had $500 to spend:
-$340 on a WASR10 with the G2 trigger already installed. (Comes with 2 mags)
-6 mags (~$10 each)
-$100 worth of ammo. (Ya gatta shoot it) (Might chip in an extra $50 or so for a whole case)
Rasputin747
Member
So the WASR10 is a good purchase if I get the G2 trigger? The mag area will evetually wear down and not be as "sharp"?
Nightcrawler
Member
It's not really an issue unless the magwell is out of spec, which happens if they take too much metal off when converting from the single-column magazine. It's more of a...well, it's just sloppy workmanship, in my opinion.
The WASR-10 is a perfectly functional gun. Shoot it up and break it in, then see what modifications or improvements you want to make. The mag well can be fixed with a dremel, just be very careful not to take too much metal off. A file will work too.
My buddy's WASR also had a crooked top hand guard (which is a royal pain in the ass to straighten) and metal shavings all up inside the gun. It was also caked in dried cosmoline. A thorough cleaning was the first order of business.
The furniture seemed like it didn't have any finish on it at all; I'd replace it with a set from Tapco or somewhere.
Oh, and get yourself a good steel front sight tool so you can zero the irons.
Rasputin747
Member
So, for the price and maybe some "fix-it up" work, it would be the best investment for my price range?
BADUNAME13
Member
There are 3 potential problems with a WASR10, all due to the Cr@ppy job US WORKERS did assembling them. They are easy to avoid, and then you will be good to go.
-Bad trigger:
The G2 trigger being installed fixes this
-Sights canted
Looking down the barrel before you buy lets you know wether or not this is a problem.
If you ordered it call century and return it/swap it out, they will do it on their $.
-Loose mag weld
Lock a mag or 2 into the magweld before you buy. If it's loose, do the same thing as with Problem #2.
Some people will say: "Why bother, spend $600 +..." well, I'm just a lowly enlisted man, and would rather spend the $250 on ammo.
As for the wood not being finished, some people paint theirs, some people spend more $ on other furnature... I LIKE the wood not being painted, when you get it hot the paint melts and burns your hand.
The paint is also more likely to catch fire.
+1 on the $10 front site tool.
Edited to add: Yes, I consider it the best option in your price range, and would be willing to take my WASR10 into combat.
-Bad trigger:
The G2 trigger being installed fixes this
-Sights canted
Looking down the barrel before you buy lets you know wether or not this is a problem.
If you ordered it call century and return it/swap it out, they will do it on their $.
-Loose mag weld
Lock a mag or 2 into the magweld before you buy. If it's loose, do the same thing as with Problem #2.
Some people will say: "Why bother, spend $600 +..." well, I'm just a lowly enlisted man, and would rather spend the $250 on ammo.
As for the wood not being finished, some people paint theirs, some people spend more $ on other furnature... I LIKE the wood not being painted, when you get it hot the paint melts and burns your hand.
The paint is also more likely to catch fire.
+1 on the $10 front site tool.
Edited to add: Yes, I consider it the best option in your price range, and would be willing to take my WASR10 into combat.
Frog48
Member
I was wondering about that too. I cant find a straight answer anywhere.
Rasputin747
Member
Well, I don't think it would be this popular with people if it didn't take 30 round mags. I think Im pretty much sold on it at this point. Fits my price range and I got two in depth reviews of it. Much thanks to all!
Rasputin,
A wasr will take double stack mags. That includes 5, 10, 20rd tankers, 30rd, 40 rd, and drums.
The wasr is originally a civilian ak version mfg'd in romania. The original mfg came with a single stack 10rd mag. They were shipped over here and remanufactured to accept double stacks and to comply with the ATF's 10 part rule.
The rifle is hit and miss. Its not mil spec, its a civilian version. Its fully functional with tweaking if you get a bad one.
Did you check the Yugo's at classicarms.us I would before you buy a wasr.
A wasr will take double stack mags. That includes 5, 10, 20rd tankers, 30rd, 40 rd, and drums.
The wasr is originally a civilian ak version mfg'd in romania. The original mfg came with a single stack 10rd mag. They were shipped over here and remanufactured to accept double stacks and to comply with the ATF's 10 part rule.
The rifle is hit and miss. Its not mil spec, its a civilian version. Its fully functional with tweaking if you get a bad one.
Did you check the Yugo's at classicarms.us I would before you buy a wasr.
BADUNAME13
Member
Imported as a semi single stacked rifle (Which you can find for sale cheaper) to get past importation restrictions.
They have US parts added and have the reciever 'opened up' after importation... which sometimes casuses the problem... the monkey's at century get a little dremel happy, cut too much and while the mags still lock in, and the rifles work the mags can 'wiggle' slightly.
Rasputin747
Member
The Yugo is a little more expensive. I don't know though. I mean, this will be my first AK (I plan on more in the future) and I just want a simple one you know? Nothing really fancy (heh) or expensive. Gotta learn about AKs somehow.
Rasputin,
I'd check on those Yugo's. I'd call classicarms and ask what receiver is on those rifles. Yugo's have a beefier front trunnion than standard AKM's. Rumor has it that century is using Nodakspud(DCI) receivers on their mil spec builds which is good.
The price difference is small, and complexity and AK dont belong in the same sentence. They all operate on the same principle. The guts of a Wasr and Yugo are all the same operating principle. No difference between a romanian, russian, yugo, polish, chinese, etc....etc.
I'd check on those Yugo's. I'd call classicarms and ask what receiver is on those rifles. Yugo's have a beefier front trunnion than standard AKM's. Rumor has it that century is using Nodakspud(DCI) receivers on their mil spec builds which is good.
The price difference is small, and complexity and AK dont belong in the same sentence. They all operate on the same principle. The guts of a Wasr and Yugo are all the same operating principle. No difference between a romanian, russian, yugo, polish, chinese, etc....etc.
Rasputin747
Member
Yeah, I know. What I meant was for a rifle to practice stuff on, so that way I don't screw up a nicer, more expensive one. Eh, I'll just have to think more about this through the week.
SJDigriz
Member
OK. You've got $500 for an AK. First, Nomad is giving you good advice, you won't go wrong that way. Just keep in mind that you need to examine the WASR before buying, don't order one.
I own a Saiga, 2 WASR's, MAK-90, 2 Yugo underfolders, SA-85M, and a Bulgy. Which is best? Functionally, they are all the same. Looks don't count with me when it comes to AK's. All mine shoot 3" - 4" @ 100 yds. if you practice and are familiar with the particular rifle you are shooting. The lowest cost alternative is the SAIGA. If you aren't worried about looks, you don't have to do a conversion. All you need to make a SAIGA work with standard AK mags is a bullet ramp. Make your own or order from K-VAR for $12.00, file about 1/32" off top of mag release, you are good to go.
SAIGA - $250-$300
WASR-10 with G2 $350-$400
MAK90 or SA-85M $400-$450
Yugo's, either fixed or underfolding $450-$550
SAR-1 (WASR with dimples) $400-$425
Vector $550 (Good reputation, haven't owned one
All the above are in your price range. All are equally reliable. The underfolders aren't for everyone, make sure you shoulder the thing a few times before buying. Some people love them, some hate.
I own a Saiga, 2 WASR's, MAK-90, 2 Yugo underfolders, SA-85M, and a Bulgy. Which is best? Functionally, they are all the same. Looks don't count with me when it comes to AK's. All mine shoot 3" - 4" @ 100 yds. if you practice and are familiar with the particular rifle you are shooting. The lowest cost alternative is the SAIGA. If you aren't worried about looks, you don't have to do a conversion. All you need to make a SAIGA work with standard AK mags is a bullet ramp. Make your own or order from K-VAR for $12.00, file about 1/32" off top of mag release, you are good to go.
SAIGA - $250-$300
WASR-10 with G2 $350-$400
MAK90 or SA-85M $400-$450
Yugo's, either fixed or underfolding $450-$550
SAR-1 (WASR with dimples) $400-$425
Vector $550 (Good reputation, haven't owned one
All the above are in your price range. All are equally reliable. The underfolders aren't for everyone, make sure you shoulder the thing a few times before buying. Some people love them, some hate.
- Status