U.S. does not lead the world in mass shootings-We're 56th out of 86 countries

Status
Not open for further replies.

boom boom

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
4,767
Location
GA
Didn't John Lott start out as an anti and planned the definitive study to show we needed strict gun control but the actual facts convinced him otherwise? IMHO we all owe him a great debt for his intellectual honesty and continued work.
 
Really have to go there?
Absolutely. For Europeans, and Germans in particular, to lecture Americans on "violence" is simply contemptible.

I'm probably only here to type this because, unlike the Jews of Europe, my great uncles who'd just come back from fighting with the French in segregated units, were able to defend themselves with firearms from arsonists and rioters like future Mayor Richard J. Daley during the 1919 Chicago race riot.

Europeans lecturing Americans on "violence" is the rankest sort of hypocrisy.
 
Didn't John Lott start out as an anti and planned the definitive study to show we needed strict gun control but the actual facts convinced him otherwise? IMHO we all owe him a great debt for his intellectual honesty and continued work.
I could be wrong, but I believe you're thinking of Gary Kleck of the University of Florida. He studied the rate of gun violence in America, believing it would lead to the conclusion gun control would reduce it, to find the facts wouldn't support his theory --- so he altered his theories so they would be supported by facts.
I don't recall Lott going that route .... but I could be poorly informed on the matter ....
 
Really have to go there?
Absolutely. For Europeans, and Germans in particular, to lecture Americans on "violence" is simply contemptible.
...
Europeans lecturing Americans on "violence" is the rankest sort of hypocrisy.
Absolutely. Let's not forget that it was 'nice, peaceful, gun free, Europe' that gave us that lovely family feud between cousins (King George V of Great Britain, Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany, and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia) commonly referred to as the First World War which segued later on to a Second World War.
It was 'nice, peaceful, gun free' Europe where an armed government massacred millions of citizens in mass genocides such as...
  • The Holocaust
  • The Ukrainian Genocide
  • The Armenian Genocide
  • The Circassian Genocide
  • The Serbian Genocide
  • The Cathar Genocide
  • The Romani Genocide
  • The Polish Genocide
  • The Genocide of Jews by Ukraine
  • The Lativian Genocide
 
This seemed rather bogus. Mass shootings are only being defined as a mass shooting if 4 or more people were killed. So all of the mass shootings where lots of people were shot, but only 3 or less were killed were not considered a mass shooting. Sorry, but that is just plain stupid. What that is saying is that to be a mass shooting, it must first be a mass murder.

Saying we have less mass shootings and saying we have less public mass shootings that are also mass murders of 4 or more exclusive of gang activities and other circumstances really are two different entities all together.
 
4poc I had never seen or heard of a few of those atrocities. I’m not a big European history guy though so that explains it. It gives me something to read up on.
 
I could be wrong, but I believe you're thinking of Gary Kleck of the University of Florida. He studied the rate of gun violence in America, believing it would lead to the conclusion gun control would reduce it, to find the facts wouldn't support his theory --- so he altered his theories so they would be supported by facts.
I don't recall Lott going that route .... but I could be poorly informed on the matter ....

He is another who let the facts change his opinion:
http://www.guncite.com/gcwhoGK.html
 
4poc I had never seen or heard of a few of those atrocities. I’m not a big European history guy though so that explains it. It gives me something to read up on.

There are good movies on subject of genocide in the East during World War II. Good titles are: Come & See, Katyn and Wolyn.
 
Many are lazy and just still tend to believe the MSM/social media on this subject. My GF is on Facebook (I call it rip your faceoff) and will often ask me about some claim or another she has read that seems off the wall. I will research it with her and she will respond with FACTS and cite/link the article where it was found.That usually stops the thread right there. Sure am proud of her taking the time to do the right thing so often.
 
I don't argue with the author's methodology or his conclusions within the limited scope in which they are made, but discovering that the data shows Mali and Zimbabwe are safer than the United States just leaves me thinking the scope may have been too limited to present realistic conclusions.
 
stevehgraham wrote:
Governments shooting their own citizens ought to count. Isn't it one of the things 2A is intended to prevent?

I'd suggest that the 2A was not intended to prevent the government from shooting their own citizens, but to moderate the behavior by ensuring the citizens had the means to shoot back.
 
wally said: Didn't John Lott start out as an anti and planned the definitive study to show we needed strict gun control but the actual facts convinced him otherwise?

John Lott has recounted that he generally accepted the "conventional wisdom" that guns were bad and gun control was good. For a class at Wharton College he let the students propose the next subject. They chose guns and their control. When he started evaluating gun control research for the project, he found that most of it was opinion-editorial quality and did not meet academic standards. That brought him around to doing his own research, which made him recognize that guns can be good, and that gun control was largely useless against criminals. The co-author of his first peer-reviewed academic research article on defensive gun use was David Mustard. Mustard has admitted that he too accepted the "conventional wisdom" on gun control but researching the issue changed his mind, too.

Going back to 1977, the Carter administration hired sociologist James D. Wright to study guns, crime and violence in America. He started as accepting the liberal position on gun control without question. Same thing for his co-author, Peter Rossi. Their research changed their minds on the subject. Their study became "Under the Gun" which is a great resource used by pro-gun rights people. Wright and Rossi also did the first prison inmate survey on gun use by felons "Armed and Considered Dangerous" which skewered a lot of political myths about guns and crime.

That makes the list Gary Kleck, James D. Wright, Peter Rossi, John Lott and David Mustard, who believed the conventional wisdom on gun control, before they studied the issue honestly, and changed their minds. I believe though that Lott is the only one that is a political conservative. Kleck, Wright and Rossi self-identified as liberal. Gun researcher and gun advocate Don B. Kates was politically liberal but was pro-gun rights and anti-gun control from the get-go.




On opening point, my summary:

The study used by Barack Obama to claim the US with 5% of the world population has 31% of the mass shootings was an unpublished research paper by Adam Lankford.

Lankford claimed to cover all mass public shootings from 1966 to 2012, 90 in the US vs 202 in the rest of the world. in 47 years, built on a database from NYPD. When other researchers have asked to see his data and sources,Lankford declined. He does claim he started with a 2012 NYPD report and followed their methodology. The NYPD report itself warns they "limited Internet searches to english language sites, creating a strong sampling bias against international incidents". NYPD admitted their study was a sample of mass shootings in the US and the world and admitted under-counting foreign mass shootings. NYPD did not claim to be complete.

Another study of 1998 to 2012 years with internet access to foreign news and government sources, using the NYPD definition of mass public shooting, and trying to be complete, found 1,423 foreign mass public shootings in those 15 years. Excluding foreign incidents that might be considered warfare, comparing "civilian" mass public shootings only, US has 1.43% of the worlds mass shooters, and 2.1% of the number killed in mass shootings, much less than the US 4.6% of the world's population. The US standing in civilian mass public shootings is 56th out of 86 countries. Crime Prevention Research Center operated by John Lott publishes their data, sources, and methods for examination by other researchers.
 
Last edited:
worth noting, up here in Birtch Bay/Blaine WA, most of the radio is out of Vancouver BC, Canada. There have been several shootings where four or more people were shot in the metro region. Shootings that would be big news in the US. Canada does not report motivated crime as the US does. So a gang shoots 4 people from another gang, or accidently shoots a few random people it makes the news for a day, then disappears . Notice the term "mass" has replaced "spree"? Big difference. Canada does not parade this all over the media for months or years, probably because of a lack of national interest in polarizing politics, promoting the evil, and an ethical news media. Nevertheless I do hear about gang violence frequently in South West B.C. that I have never seen make US news, or even Canadian national news. Aside, there are mass shootings that don't happen in other countries that are fairly unique https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html Does this count?
 
This seemed rather bogus. Mass shootings are only being defined as a mass shooting if 4 or more people were killed.

I believe they used the same methodology as Lankford. The Comment about not being able to discover cases in Africa and other parts of the world where four people were killed was a commentary alone. It was not defining methodology.


A new report from the Crime Prevention Research Center, which one of us heads, has just finished collecting cases using the same definition of mass public shootings used by Lankford.

We know of no way to discover most of the cases where four people have been shot to death in an incident in Africa or many other parts of the world during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or even 1990s, and that is the reason the new study just looked at the last 15 years from 1998 to 2012 of the 47 years he examined.
 
Absolutely. For Europeans, and Germans in particular, to lecture Americans on "violence" is simply contemptible.

I'm probably only here to type this because, unlike the Jews of Europe, my great uncles who'd just come back from fighting with the French in segregated units, were able to defend themselves with firearms from arsonists and rioters like future Mayor Richard J. Daley during the 1919 Chicago race riot.

Europeans lecturing Americans on "violence" is the rankest sort of hypocrisy.

Exactly, to the the left and Europeans, fascism is always a threat to America, yet it only ever lands in Europe.
 
I believe they used the same methodology as Lankford. The Comment about not being able to discover cases in Africa and other parts of the world where four people were killed was a commentary alone. It was not defining methodology.


A new report from the Crime Prevention Research Center, which one of us heads, has just finished collecting cases using the same definition of mass public shootings used by Lankford.

We know of no way to discover most of the cases where four people have been shot to death in an incident in Africa or many other parts of the world during the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s or even 1990s, and that is the reason the new study just looked at the last 15 years from 1998 to 2012 of the 47 years he examined.

Nothing like replicating stupidity. All that is being compared is MASS MURDER from shooting, not mass shootings. As a result, the claims being made are bogus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top