Uberti 1859 New and a Timing Issue

[wmgeorge]

In my quest to find a working 1858 (typo in headline)
Uberti after sending one back to MidwayUSA that must of had a weak mainspring as it would not fire 6 caps in a row. Lucky to fire 2 maybe out of six. New caps from the store, correct size, two different brands, bla, blah.
Went back and they gave me a refund. So went to local big box sports warehouse near me. Purchased another one, same brand, same 44 Cal. Got home and started to fondle it and try the caps. Its a little out of time, I need to finish rotating just a bit to get it to lock up. But it fires every cap. Beautiful gun I might add.

So Riddle me this Batman..... I put on my spare Uberti cylinder and it works perfect, rotates and locks up as it should. Store policy, no returns they will send it in for me, but what is going on?

I already have a RMA pending with UbertiUSA and will find out next week about a return, or is it just a cylinder? I can send it in myself and know its getting done. BUT?

 

[whughett]

Goons gun works.

 

[J-Bar]

I'm not sure what your question is.

Obviously one cylinder is a bit different from the other. I don't know if you could fit a new hand that would make both of them work ok or not. If you have made up your mind to send it in rather than tinker it yourself, it's a moot question.

 

[Mizar]

The hand can be stretched fairly easy to accommodate for the original cylinder - you need an anvil, hammer and a flat steel punch, but then the stretched hand will not work with the spare one as it will become too long. If it makes you feel any better, almost all Italian black powder replicas need their mechanisms tuned in order to work properly - hand fitting, bolt pick up and drop off, removing sharp edges from the mainspring, reshaping the hammer head (with subsequent heat treating) to make a full contact with the nipples, opening the frame slot to accommodate loading of LEE conical bullets, etc, etc... I second the Goons gun works suggestion - I have not used his services, but many people are quite happy with his work, his prices seem very reasonable and turnaround time is fast. He is a member of the THR as well.

 

[wmgeorge]

Thanks for the replies, the question was why did one cylinder work and the other did not? Since the cylinders are made on a CNC machine, why the difference?

If I had $200 to spend for a tune up and it needed to be done then Goons looks like the place.

 

[Crawdad1]

The Goon is always the best option. Or, stretch the old hand like Mizar said or buy another hand and file it down using the old one as a guide but make it just a bit longer. The hand isn't a precise instrument. There's a certain range it can be in and work both cylinders.

 

[wmgeorge]

Thanks again, and Crawdad I am going to do just as you suggested, get another hand and spring and fit so both cylinders work. I see Dixie gun works has the hand/spring combo, or is there a better source? I have a decent home shop, but I was surprised that cylinders could be that far off from one to another?

 

[Mizar]

...but I was surprised that cylinders could be that far off from one to another?...

It's a 300 dollar revolver - you can't expect much... Even much more expensive "real" guns require hand fitting when installing a new cylinder - if the ratchet's teeth are like 0.003" off regarding bolt slots it is more that enough to mess up the timing. BTW, you did not say how far off is the old cylinder.

 

[sltm1]

Take a look and compare the ratchet's on the back of the cylinder and see if the teeth are the same length, sound like that's the problem.

 

[wmgeorge]

It's a 300 dollar revolver - you can't expect much... Even much more expensive "real" guns require hand fitting when installing a new cylinder - if the ratchet's teeth are like 0.003" off regarding bolt slots it is more that enough to mess up the timing. BTW, you did not say how far off is the old cylinder.

Its perhaps a 32nd of an inch short (or less) from dropping in the notch. My guess it was fitted to the cylinder perfect when it left the factory and perhaps all the messing I did with it trying to get the cylinder in and out threw it off just that tiny bit. I doubt if you could see .003 of an inch but I do have digital calipers. The other one I purchased as a spare works perfect. I think my best bet is just get a new hand and spring and go from there. I was wondering if the one from Dixie Gun Works was good enough at $10 vs the ones at $21 and $27 from Taylors or VTI? All have the spring, the DGW looks a little not so finished.

 

[wmgeorge]

Well I checked what I could with my digital calipers, and I can not see where they vary. Could be I don't know what or where to measure from. But I took Crawdads and others advise and ordered a new Hand and Spring Assy from VTI. I will just use my spare cylinder and when I get around to it will install the new Hand and fit as needed, thanks to the good help on here. Glad I found you guys...
PS I ground some tips for my screw drivers and wanted to see how tight the revolver screws were, and its never been fired. They were all loose, so I snugged them up for now until I get the new part.

 

[Mizar]

Wmgeorge, it's the angle between ratchet's teeth and corresponding bolt slots - you cannot measure it with a caliper. And you didn't mess the timing with cylinder removal - the hand, although soft, is not that delicate.

 

[Crawdad1]

wmgeorge. tells us how it turns out, let us know, will ya?

 

[wmgeorge]

Ok guys ordered the part online from VTI and it was shipped Monday am, got here today Wednesday. The new Uberti hand looked different (new design? my gun was made in 2014 and was a showcase queen) but it went in and worked fine. Both cylinders worked as they should. Took me a few minutes to figure out how things went back together, but cut me some slack. I am 73 and had never had a revolver apart before but I know not to force things. Thanks to all who chimed in and Crawdad who said just order a new part.
VTI is great to do business with, 3 days not priority mail from CT? Wow.
Cost $26 to my door.

 

[Crawdad1]

That's great wmgeorge, I'm glad it worked out for you.

Thanks for the update.

 

[wmgeorge]

A follow up to a follow up post. First time out to the range in nearly 2 weeks or longer of non stop rain. Sunshine all day! Two cylinders pre-loaded and shot. Distance 30-40 feet. Round ball .454, over lubed patch with 30 grains of Pyrodex

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I have Uberti's and the latest ones in a 1851 Navy and Remington conversion had weak main springs out of the box. I ordered stronger main springs and they worked fine afterwards. It is aggravating but it is an easy fix.

 

[wmgeorge]

Uberti issued a RMA for this gun and told me it would be at least 5 weeks before they got around to it. Like I was the one that caused the problem! I told them to void the RMA as I am sure their skilled gunsmiths would be busy but I had replaced the defective part myself and it worked fine. The other one (1858) I had I was sure was a bad main spring but I could not get a answer from MidwayUSA other than send it back. Which I did and got a refund.
Not impressed with Uberti.

 

[DingoDoug]

Hello all i've enjoyed all the great info here.
I have a problem with the bolt pinning the cylinder not quite sure how to correct this.
I have a new uberti rem. 5.5 barrel I love it I have taken it all apart and did most of the tuning up but just I'm sick of the pinning of the cylinder.
Any advice please. Thanks

 

[45 Dragoon]

First off, thanks guys for the recommendation! Wmgeorge, glad everything worked out!

Dingo, the bolt spring is exerting too much pressure and is hammering the cylinder. If the bolt is hitting the edge of the notch (late timing), you need to do some more tuning lol!! (Sorry, just had to!!).
You can place a thin washer under the combination spring and that will help alleviate some pressure, then you can "tweak" the bolt spring to get the tension down to about 3-3 1/2 lbs pressure. The bolt head should drop just ahead of the notch (one bolt width before the notch).

Good luck!

Mike

 

[wmgeorge]

FYI guys I have my spare stainless steel cylinder over in the for Sale section, can not believe nobody has purchased yet? When I was looking for one, NOBODY had one for sale!

 

[Crawdad1]

A follow up to a follow up post. First time out to the range in nearly 2 weeks or longer of non stop rain. Sunshine all day! Two cylinders pre-loaded and shot. Distance 30-40 feet. Round ball .454, over lubed patch with 30 grains of Pyrodex
View attachment 232863

You're not straining that Remington much as they can shoot 30 to 40 feet with their eyes closed.

But it looks like you got yourself a keeper there.

 

[DingoDoug]

First off, thanks guys for the recommendation! Wmgeorge, glad everything worked out!

Dingo, the bolt spring is exerting too much pressure and is hammering the cylinder. If the bolt is hitting the edge of the notch (late timing), you need to do some more tuning lol!! (Sorry, just had to!!).
You can place a thin washer under the combination spring and that will help alleviate some pressure, then you can "tweak" the bolt spring to get the tension down to about 3-3 1/2 lbs pressure. The bolt head should drop just ahead of the notch (one bolt width before the notch).

Good luck!

Mike

Thanks Mike I thought I was going to have to modify the hammer and get a new hand maybe longer

 

[Mizar]

DingoDoug, if (and only IF) the rest of the timing is correct, you can tune the bolt to drop early - you need to put a radius on the rear top corner of the left bolt leg. Left and right sides are determined when the gun is held with barrel pointing away from you, parts also follow that orientation. From the factory it leaves with an almost 90 degree cut that contributes to a rather abrupt bolt drop. That bolt leg is the one that slides at the hammer cam and defines drop timing. Depending on the size of the radius you can make the bolt not only drop early, but to be released more smoothly.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Somebody has been watching too many YouTube "wonder Smith's" I'm afraid!!

The left bolt arm should fall off the front of the cam, not slide off the side of the cam. Sliding off the side will cause a wear pattern that will only get worse as time goes on. The design is such that the rear most surface of the arm (that rides/contacts the cam) should keep a full width profile. An angle cut off the corner will cause wear, - the arm falling off because the cam was pulled far enough to allow that to happen, won't.

Fitting a bolt to function properly and correctly is the secret to a lifetime action in a S.A. Allowing the "slide off" may work for a short time but timing will change and eventually the bolt (and probably the cam) will need replacing. An overly tensioned bolt spring will greatly accelerate the wear!! The very action of the bolt arm falling off the front of the cam (because it is being pulled to the rear for the whole cycle) shouldn't really ever change.
Hint: just because Pietta or Uberti may send one out the door with a bolt fitted this way or that way or the bolt head ground this way or that way doesn't mean it's the correct way. They just want them to function, for how long doesn't matter.
I've seen all kind of things done to all models new from the factory.

The only correct way to set up a Colt type action is the way Colt designed the action to be set up.
Having said that, the only way to modify the Colt action is that the modification not detract from the design purpose of the particular action part.
Example, installing a Ruger type coil spring and plunger as an upgrade may not be the upgrade you intended. More than likely, the new "upgrade" may now induce throw-by (cyl over rotation) by the loss of the braking action the flat spring set up administered (by design!). You may not break another hand spring but you'll pay for it with misfires and scared up cylinders. Correctly done though (I've been at it for a while!!) the coil and pushrod (mine) gives the same feel and the braking action of the original set up (minus the friction) without the "new" problems.

Dingo, you would be wise to get a good instruction book on the correct set up of the Colt action. The best I know of personally is by Jerry Kuhnhausen. "The Colt Single Action Revolvers A Shop Manual, Volumes 1&2" This book was proofed by and many illustrations from Mr. Jim Martin my mentor and teacher! I am doing what I do today because of Mr. Martin!

Mike