Uberti 1873 Cattleman .44-40 Pistol Problem

[mefitz]

Lots of data to give, here we go...

I have a Uberti 1873 Cattleman pistol 44WCF. I also have a Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle in 44 WCF. Both are about a year old. Bought them brand new out of the box.
I load ONLY 200 gr cast (I cast the bullet myself), Starline brass, Universal 7.5 gr using Wolf LPP. I have shot nothing else to this point out of either gun. The load was initially meant for the pistol.

Here is the problem: when I shoot this load from the pistol, it goes pop. When I put a round in the rifle it goes BANG! I have had a squib in the pistol. EVERY round shot out of the pistol goes pop. The rifle (although not a hot round by any means) goes BANG every time!

I first thought that it was primer depth. But since it shot so well from the rifle, I thought it couldn't be primer depth, but had to be firing pin-related. So I inspected the firing pin on the pistol. The firing pin is a striker mechanism, which means it (firing pin) is on the hammer. Upon inspection, I was able to physically move the pin in a circular manner.

Is this normal? I.E. should the pin be movable with ones fingers? My thoughts are no it should not be movable, and since it is movable, wouldn't that affect the pressure of the striking of the primer?

I always thought that primers either ignite, or they don't ignite. Do primers ignite "halfway"? Would they ignite halfway if the striker doesn't fully hit the primer with the appropriate amount of pressure?

I don't know. Maybe I'm completely off base here. Can somebody give me a lesson, or confirm my suspicions. I think this ends up with me sending my pistol back to Uberti to be fixed. Anyone ever have to send a firearm back to Uberti??? How'd it go?

Thanks in advance for any comments / help and suggestions.

Fitz

 

[BCRider]

The firing pin is held in with a cross pin and yes there should be some wobbly play. That's so it self aligns with the similarly "venturi" like shaped recess in the recoil shield.

If it's mis-shaped badly enough you might see some wear in the recess when looking down into the hammer slot.

If you're getting ignition though then I'd say that it's not the firing pin. If the primer is being set off then the gun has done its job and from that point on it's up to the ammo.

A buddy ran some Universal through his own .45Colt Vaqueros. But he was using something like 6gns for cowboy action shooting. We found that he was getting spotty sounding rounds. Also on a couple of occasions the RO timing him, me in one case, saw a sudden flash fireball around the cylinder. It seems that the pressure build in the revolver was not that good and the Universal responded by not burning all the powder. The unburned flakes would build up and finally go POOF! In the meantime he tended to get spotty and inconsistent sounding rounds.

Why? Not a clue other than Universal seems to want to run at higher pressure.

He/we cured the issue by switching to Tightgroup.

Now if you're actually not getting powder ignition so the round acts like a squib but with powder in the casing that falls out when you open up the gun then I'm thinking that the primers you're using are not hot enough to set off the Universal. Perhaps try switching to some other brand? Or even try some Magnum primers? Or as he did switch powder and try that?

Or if you're getting the powder to burn but the rounds seem light in the pistol then the difference between the rifle and your revolver might be simply the slight release of pressure at the cylinder gap. It might be occurring soon enough in the burn that the pressure drops and the powder doesn't fully burn as a result. In that case the magnum primer might help. But I'd take it as a sign that you want to go with a different powder.

 

[Tommygunn]

I have revolvers with firing pins that have some slight movement in them. None of them have ever shown a problem so far as igniting a round though.
You say it moves around in a "circular" manner? Does it have any back<>forth movement? I can imagine that causing some problem just not the circular movement you note.
Moreover you note the round in the pistol is a squib that goes "pop!"
Either the round ignites or it doesn't. The squibs to me indicate that the firing pin is doing its job, but something inside the round is not. Primer? The gunpowder charge?
But, OTOH, you note in the rifle they all go "BOOM!"
A squib is a squib is a squib, pistol or rifle. If anything it out to underperform in a rifle with a LONG barrel not in a handgun with a 7 1/2" (or 5 1/2" ) barrel.


The first thing I would try is get some commercially made .44-40 and see what happens ... I have a feeling you will find they will work.
You have what I think is a bizarre problem.
I'm not trying to be nasty or snarky to you but something tells me that it's the handloads that is behind this ..... but I admit what's happening exactly is beyond me -- it doesn't make sense.

 

[BobWright]

Try this: Check to make sure the revolver is unloaded. Then cock the hammer and hold the gun with the muzzle vertical, pointing up. Drop a No. 2 yellow pencil with eraser on it, eraser down, down the barrel until it rests on the breech face. Pull the trigger.

The pencil should fly clear out of the barrel from being hit by the firing pin. If it does, the gun is fine.

I've never used Wolf primers, but have noticed Wolf brand .22 rimfire ammunition has about a 20% failure to fire.

Try using Remington, CCI or Winchester primers.

Bob Wright

I failed to mention Federal primers, which are equally suitable as the ones I mentioned.

I strongly suspect Wolf primers to be the culprit. Note rifles usually impart greater impact that handguns.

 

[yamahawarrior89]

Hodgdon lists 6.6 to 7.3 with a 200gr pill

Nevermind. You should be decent pressure wise. I thought I read you used 6.0 gr

 

[RainDodger]

Regarding the firing pin.. I have the same revolver and it has the same movement with the firing pin. Normal.

 

[rcmodel]

Are you using a firm roll-crimp on the bullet when you seat them?

A crimp will provide a slight delay before bullet movement and more time for pressure and a complete burn in the case.

rc

 

[LeftyTSGC]

To clarify: The same reloaded ammo goes Bang in the rifle and only goes PoP in the Pistol? How long has this been going on? Day one? or did you do something differnt since it started? i.e. did you use a different type of lead to smelt? Did you change your OAL? Did you adjust/change your roll crimp? If you break down the reload you should be able to determine it it is that?

I am not clear on if your Cattleman has had this problem from day one or recent issue? As mentioned, check your firing pin, yes it will move as stated. See if your safety bar is protruding and limiting the firing pin forward? When the cylinder is closed and you rotate it, with the hammer down, can you see the firing pin protruding? Have you checked your Hammer Spring? if its the old model it may be a leaf spring going bad or cracked.

If the pistol is okay and it is not mechanical then it has to be your reloads, something changed, and yes it could be small and seem insignificant.

I can only provide you with a check list of items. I have two cattelmen and a lever action in .45LC, I use Trailboss specifically in my cowboy loads. I shoot 250gr or 200gr LRNFP from MB. I have used a pluthera of primers.

I have noticed differnces in my shots based on powder loads and crimping changes. Your lever action will provide higher velocities than your pistols because of the way the round is fired. This also causes pressure differences compared to each other with the same load. Just my two cents worth.

 

[MartinS]

The bullet is supersonic out the rifle and subsonic out of the handgun?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Yes, the firing pin is supposed to rotate slightly up an down on the pin that holds it to the hammer. This is because the arc the firing pin follows as it enters the frame is not the same as the hole drilled for it. So the firing pin has to 'find its way' through the frame. Completely normal. Firing pin protrusion through the frame for a Colt SAA should be .045 min, .056 max. An Uberti should be similar. You can get a good idea of the amount of protrusion by laying a drill bit next to the firing pin.

One other thing, be sure the firing pin has not dragged metal from the frame through the hole, raising a burr on the face of the recoil shield. Very common with these guns. Colts have a hardened steel insert to prevent this.

I dunno anything about that powder. You might consider changing powders. I have used Unique in 45 Colt for many years, when I'm not shooting Black Powder.

 

[mefitz]

First off, a big thanks to all who responded to my question/problem.

Secondly, the mystery has been solved...A powder problem.

A simple switch to Trail Boss (6.0 gr - my favorite powder) and everything is right with the world!

I deconstructed the "bad hand-loads" and re-used the primers with the Trail Boss and the same bullet. BANG !!! Every time.

I learned something about powders today. Thanks again to all of you for the excellent advice/suggestions. You're the best!

Fitz