United Methodist Church 2008 Anti-Gun Resolution

[Sulaco]

Except that whole drinking and dancing thing and there are Missionary Baptists, Primative Baptists, Southern Baptists, Independent Baptists, Reformed Baptists...



Ash

What drinking, dancing thing would that be? I am Southern Baptist and just because we don't promote drinking in the church or at church functions doesn't mean you can't drink alcohol. And dancing? That's the first I've heard of that.

And let me tell you a little about drinking since you brought it up. My parent's neighbor is a Roman Catholic from Chicago (he now lives here in SC with his wife). About a month or so ago he quit drinking. That's the 2nd time since he's moved here he has quit. I talked to him this past weekend and asked how it was going. He said he had lost over 20 pounds but started drinking again Saturday because his church had the Budweiser truck at a picnic. That would not have happened at a Southern Baptist church.

 

[Ash]

Hey, just joking. My wife is a recovering Baptist. You know the joke: What's the difference between a Baptist and a Presbyterian? The Presbyterian will acknowledge you at the liquor store.

Just a ribbing so relax. We don't drink on our church grounds, either - though I have had a beer with my pastor and another deacon. Of course, it does remain true that there are a tremendous number of Baptist denominations.

Ash

 

[Dravur]

You know.

It shoudl be a law that if you are ant-gun, that you should be required to wear a short that says...

"I am anti-gun, please do not attempt to save me if a Bad Guy is beating me to death with a claw hammer"

Might be a tad wordy.....

 

[btg3]

I am not questioning anyone's right to switch for any reason which seems appropriate to them, but I think there is also much to be said for standing and fighting. Having said that I admit that at times the cause seems lost.

Standing and fighting as a united congregation can be a fine thing. Standing and fighting within a congretation is not what I would wish upon my church. There are better ways to handle differences. Switching may not be the best outcome, but it is preferred to strife or splitting.

Separation of church and state.
Separation of economy and state.
Right to life, right to property, right to liberty.

This stuff was figured out by Aristotle what, 2500 years ago? Come on.

Evidence that liberals don't know history and that the education problem in the USA continues to be greatly manifested at the polls. :banghead:

 

[zxcvbob]

tossed overboard every tenet they held in an attempt to appeal to everyone. They're like that girl in high school who goes from being mousy but nice, to being a drunk, promiscuous party girl.

Maybe trying to outflank (on the left) the Unitarian Universalists?

it's amazing how civil this thread has been; probably why the mods are indulging us and leaving it open

 

[30 cal slob]

ah, just curious.

what's the presbyterian position on RKBA? is it similar to UMC's?

 

[wdlsguy]

are there any conservative, nondenominational, bible centric churches left?

Yes. You can find churches with DTS alumni on staff here. DTS isn't the only good seminary around, but this should get you pointed in the right general direction...

 

[learn2shoot]

I attend the church of the Second Amendmentist.

I currently attend services on Thursdays at 7PM and the mecca in Fairfax VA.

Typically I make a donation of about 15800 grains.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Maybe the United Methodist Church ought to lose their tax exempt status since they are choosing not to separate church from state as Werewolf suggested.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

WHEREAS: An increase in the incidence of handgun violence has occurred in recent years, with
the attendant result of increased deaths. According to Law Enforcement’s Uniform Crime Reports,
in the year 2007 in the Central Pa. Conference the murder rate (expressed in per 100,000) in some of
8
our larger cities is as follows: Harrisburg 21.0, York 3.07, Williamsport 3.3, and Columbia 6.31 and,
The overall rate for Pennsylvania is 6.2; and
WHEREAS: The Commonwealth’s existing gun laws make multiple handgun purchases easy and
cheap encouraging the illegal trade in handguns.
There is where the disconnect is. There is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the latter has any affect on the former; in fact what evidence there is, suggests exactly the opposite.

It is a out and out false assumption and anyone who knowingly perpetrates such a false assumption is a LIAR. What about the commandment about bearing false witness? Did they conveniently forget that one?

 

[zxcvbob]

You can find churches with DTS alumni on staff here: http://www.dts.edu/alumni/findachurch/
DTS isn't the only good seminary around, but this should get you pointed in the right general direction...

Dallas Theological Seminary rocks. I've been a fan of theirs for most of my life.

 

[ilcylic]

There is even a passage that Texans are in the clear (it states that you may kill an intruder at night, but not during the day....yes I'm serious)

That part is in the Talmud, too.

Exodus 22

sacp81170a: And let's not forget other equally important bible passages

Lev 19:19 -- No Mules, Mixed grain bread, or Cotton/polyester fabrics

Lev 19:27-18 & Lev 21:5 -- No shaving your head, no trimming your sideburns, no tattoos. (Must be really important, it's in there twice.)

Leviticus 11:9-12 & Deuteronomy 14:9-10 -- No shrimp, lobster, clams, scallops, or crab. (Another double admonition.)

 

[Ash]

PCUSA's position is not only no different than UMC's, but they came out with it a decade ago.

BUT, PCA has no position because it refuses to have a position as it does not get involved with politics. There are no policy statements about it. Members are free to go what ever route they choose.

Ash

 

[MinnMooney]

The "church", in all of it's various robes, is the single, most violent organization in the history of the world (with the posible exception of Nazi-ism).
For them to be preaching to us about being non-violent is a joke and an insult to our intelligence. Way too many deaths can be attributed to churches who believe that their way is the only way. I don't care if you go back to the crusades or Jihad...... they try to control the way their believers think and push them to do their bidding.

 

[3fgburner]

My paternal grandparents were Methodist. My maternal grandparents were Lutheran. My folks hauled me to church on occasion, when I was growing up.

I'm now a heavily-armed Pagan.

 

[Ash]

Ah, you forget Communism there. The 20th century's record shows the effect of religious war to be much lower. Indeed, Communism and National Socialism managed to kill more in one century than the sum total of deaths from the crusades.

Ash

 

[MakAttak]

The "church", in all of it's various robes, is the single, most violent organization in the history of the world (with the posible exception of Nazi-ism).
For them to be preaching to us about being non-violent is a joke and an insult to our intelligence. Way too many deaths can be attributed to churches who believe that their way is the only way. I don't care if you go back to the crusades or Jihad...... they try to control the way their believers think and push them to do their bidding.

Citations please.

Why is it people have problems when the anti's just make up numbers but have no problem making up their own numbers to support their own ideas?

Given that the Soviets and other communists were anti-religion, I could claim that atheism has caused far more deaths than religion ever has...

Please note, I am not making that claim, I am pointing out the folly of the opposite claim.

 

[Artigas]

I would think that Mormons probably are.

Well, as far as I know, there's no official position either way. Just a lot of history to back up that point of view. For example:

We feel to hope for the best, and are determined to prepare for the worst. And we want this to be your motto in common with us, ‘that we will never ground our arms until we give them up by death—’ ‘Free trade and sailors rights, protection of persons and property, wives and families.’ If a mob annoy you, defend yourselves to the very last, and if they fall upon you with a superior force, and if you think you are not able to compete with them, retreat to Nauvoo… act according to the emergency of the case but never give up your arms, but die first…

There is one principle which is Eternal, it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity requires. And no power has a right to forbid it.

I swear in the name of the Almighty God with uplifted hand the Legislature shall never take away our rights. I’ll spill my heart’s blood first.

Let me say to all of you, learn to be true and faithful; and, instead of laying out your means for fine bonnets and fine shoes, and for coffee and tea, my advice to you is, if you can five or ten dollars, go and buy a good blanket, a gun, or a sword. And we want you, ladies, to provide yourselves with weapons, and with all that is necessary, and be ready to defend yourselves; for you won’t always have your husbands to defend you.

But let's continue...

I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong but they believe the consitution is an inspired document and God was instrumental in the founding of this nation (cannot say I disagree there).

You are correct.

In terms of doctrine I believe that they believe strongly in ones right to protected themself and their loved ones.

This is true.

Most mormons tend to be politicaly conservative.

In my experience as a lifelong LDS, also true.

John Browning was a mormon. The guys that own robinson arms and make the XCR I think are.

Knew about JMB, but not the others. Thanks for the info.

they were oppressed very badly and even had a governor, of IL I believe, sign an extermination order. What is interesting is that law apparently wasn't removed from the books untill relatively recently or so I heard.

Gov. Boggs of MO signed that Extermination Order, and it was not officially rescinded until '76, I believe.

Interesting story on that... man by the name of Porter Rockwell, Joseph Smith's bodyguard, was accused of attempting the assassination of Boggs. His response:

Rockwell was in Missouri at the time of the assassination attempt and arrested for it, a grand jury was unable to find sufficient evidence to indict him, convinced in part by his reputation as a deadly gunman and his statement that he "never shot at anybody, if I shoot they get shot!... He's still alive, ain't he?"

This is part of the reason I wasn't worried about Romney.

I was, and it was for his anti-gun positions that I did not vote for him.

For the most part, you hit the nail on the head. Good job!

 

[lee n. field]

what's the presbyterian position on RKBA? is it similar to UMC's?

PCUSA is anti-rights.

Gun Control

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has a thirty year history of support for gun control legislation. Beginning in the late 1960's, in response to the assassinations of public leaders, the General Assembly called for ". . . control [of] the sale and possession of fire arms of all kinds."1 In 1976, this statement was re-affirmed, but also specifically worded to ". . .not cover shotguns and rifles used legitimately by sportsmen. . .".2 In 1988, these and other statements supporting gun control were again reaffirmed.

The smaller conservative Presbyterian bodies I doubt care.

 

[Mannlicher]

My Father was a Methodist Minister for over 25 years. In the early 60s, he left the denomination because of their liberal stance on many issues. It was a good decision on his part then, as they have only moved further away from Christ, and into the arms of secularism.

 

[aerod1]

I have been an Episcopalian for many years and our church is going through a difficult time right now with the liberal side of the church.
TEC has a anti-gun policy but our local church does not. Last year our Men's Group sponsored a "range day" at the local gun range. We had 23 people show up with their guns and ready for some fun at the range. We even had a few women show up to shoot.
Of course you can guess who organized the event
I say pi$$ on what the national church has to say. Our church is very conservative. There are still some conservative churches in most all orthodox denominations but you have to look hard to find them.
We have a few people in our church that carrry a concealed handgun every Sunday.

 

[ArmedBear]

.......

 

[zxcvbob]

I say pi$$ on what the national church has to say. Our church is very conservative. There are still some conservative churches in most all orthodox denominations but you have to look hard to find them.

I think what you need to watch out for is does any of your tithe get funneled into anti-gun lobbying (or pro-abortion, or...) via the national organization?

 

[Girodin]

Armed bear that picture is not very highroad. I'm not telling you what to do but I can see it causing a fire storm that really ditracts from this thread and as such would suggest you consider removing it.

 

[Tyris]

Im not much into religion, someone explain this whole tithe thing to me.

Do you believe you goto hell if you dont pay?
Do they just suspend your membership to the church?

-T