Unity and Acceptance…do gun folks have it?

[Buzznrose]

I listened to the latest edition of Gun Talk Nation yesterday and I really thought a couple points these guys talked about are needed in our struggle against the anti-gun forces. You can listen to the podcast at the link below:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gun-talk/id190516844?i=1000533145595

The two main points I got from the discussion were:

1. Are we as passionate (and verbal) about gun rights as we are about our favorite firearms? And…

2. What is the real benefit with putting down someone’s choice of firearms?

Regarding #1, I suspect we are all passionate to a degree about 2A issues, but what are we, as a community, actively doing to keep them? Are we:

- calling our legislators when a gun related bill (good or bad) is working through the legislation process? Are we writing them?
- active or at least members of one or more pro-gun groups? Do we support their efforts, either through financial contributions or volunteerism?
- Do we know how to discuss 2A issues logically and clearly? Do we debate out anti-gun friends and family calmly with irrefutable acts or emotionally with inciting negativity?

On #2, the discussion included the huge number of new gun owners who may have been (and still might be) either anti-gun or hesitantly pro-gun. What are we doing to help them land squarely on our side? One thing that does NOT help is cutting them down on their first gun purchase (which may have been rushed, made when shelves were bare, and completed without much help). What can we do for them? How about we begin by bringing them to the range for some basic safety and shooting help? And we need to do it without telling them their Taurus/HiPoint/KelTec/Glock/“fill in the blank” is “junk-bad choice-nothing you would own…”

We need to help bring them in. We need to guide them towards the issues with logic. We need to help them learn to use their new gun and make it a positive experience. We NEED them
on OUR side, and need to show them we gun owners are an INCLUSIVE group!

Lots of things we can do that cost little to no money. We need to get moving…our opponents are not resting until they get every one of our guns outlawed by their “death of a thousand cuts” game plan.

I have a lot of flaws based on the podcast. I am committed to doing better and getting more involved to help secure the future of shooting sports for my grandkids. If we all step up our game a bit, it will have a huge impact.

Of course, some here are already fully engaged. All I’ll say to y’all is Thank You for your Service, and I’m gonna do more to help!

Just my $0.02, sent for free, on an Internet gun forum. Stay safe.

 

[The Glockodile]

Unity and Acceptance...

Probably not.

The most common pronoun in Gun and 4x4 Forums is "I."

MY alpha male, sheepdog warrior opinion carries the most weight...

 

[The Glockodile]

...akin to herding cats.

 

[1942bull]

Unity is unlikely in the cards. Individual gun owners can have distinctly different reasons for owning a gun. The hunter is most likely a long gun shooter. Are AR and AK rifles the first choice of hunters? I think not. In PA you cannot hunt with a a semiautomatic rifle, and I suspect that is true in some other states. So do those hunters care about banning semi-auto rifles? While that might oppose a ban in principle are they going to advocate to preen the a ban? I doubt it. The majority of handgun owners are either target shooters and/or home defenders. How much energy would they put into advocacy over concealed carry permitting or carrying? Not much in my opinion. Among those who carry for self defense some have no objection to their being no training required to get a carry permit. Would they advocate to have training required? PA has no training requirement. I think it should, but am I going to spend to]ime on that? No, I am not. A recent survey indicated that the majority of gun owners favor universal background checks. If accurate, would could we expect those supporters to oppose a UBC edict? I sure don’t expect it. The only way to get unity is to have a cause that the majority of a class of people support. So we see that in terms of 2A rights, but not regulation. Could that be changed? Probably, if one had the initiative, policy platform, messengers, and financial supporters. I do not see that combination happening because the gun organizations are not coordinated. In fact they compete. If you cannot marshal the troops, you cannot fight the war.

 

[LiveLife]

1. Are we as passionate (and verbal) about gun rights as we are about our favorite firearms?

Yes, it's called "free speech" and many gun owners exercise it regularly. We are quite the verbal group. I guess Second Amendment does ensure First Amendment.

2. What is the real benefit with putting down someone’s choice of firearms?

Freely expressing First Amendment. To me it's more of a "free speech rights" issue. Ford vs Chevy guys do it daily.

And if the "put downs" or rather constructive criticism is true enough, it will sway manufacturers to correct the issues or make changes. Automobile journalists do it all the time and auto industry listens. If Euro snob journalists didn't put down Corvette's short comings, as an owner of C5 Z06, I would not believe GM/Chevy would have "refined" the Corvette to the level of C8, which BTW is kicking many European "sports car" models all over the place.

And look what Camaro vs Mustang put downs got us ... Pony cars that not only go fast but handle nice as well. If short comings weren't pointed out, we would not have the latest generation Camaro with Cadillac ATS chassis and Corvette Stingray engine in the current SS model (Which wife is looking hard at in convertible 2SS trim ... But I am pushing for Ford Lightning instead ). And latest Mustang GT will turn corners like it was meant to be.

Look at all the ambi and ergo features we have on guns now. I have a feeling most of them got added by gun manufacturers due to "put downs", I mean constructive criticisms. Case in point, Glock. Thanks to all the short comings that were pointed out by many, we have FIVE generations of improvements and they had me at Generation 3 and so did Navy Seals -
https://special-ops.org/navy-seals-chose-glock-19-as-their-new-sidearm/

Why they rejected the "enhancements" of Gen4 G19? Maybe they thought the flat recoil spring assembly of Gen3 was better in preventing reliability issues than nested dual recoil spring assembly of Gen4? Oh, I guess that was another "constructive criticism".

 

[Buzznrose]

At the risk of hurting feelings, which I am trying to avoid, I started this thread as a general discussion to try and point out how we, as a "pro-firearms community", really need to better come together on what we can agree on versus what we can't. It's not about a "Ford versus Chevy" type discussion or how we can get firearms makers to build better products. There are plenty of threads on that.

I'm trying to make this thread about the gun community attacking ourselves from within and how we need to try and stop it where we can. It's about the OPPORTUNITY to embrace new shooters and folks who may have been/currently be against us, but now see our world as a place that police are under attack and response times are increasing...they are beginning to realize that they are their own first responders, and perhaps a gun in their home, as foreign a concept to them as it was, would be a good thing.

For example, I can clearly remember several years back, when I was at a gun range, there were two middle age male/female shooters near me. They were clearly new to the sport, and trying to figure out how to load and shoot their new gun. It was a brand new HiPoint 9MM. They seemed frustrated and a bit scared. I waved to them and asked if they were doing okay. They explained that they were were new gun owners and bought the gun because there were a couple recent break ins near them and wanted to be armed. I walked them through the 4 Safety rules and had one of them open their phone to You Tube. I had them bookmark some videos including Clint Smith's 4 Rules video and some NSSA videos from Gunsight that discussed grip, stance, sight picture, etc...the basics. Then I helped them load the magazine, explained how the gun functioned (basics), and walked them through grip and stance. They were beginning to feel better. They fired some shots and were doing okay, at least hitting their targets most of the time. The gun had a few malfunctions, and I helped them understand clearing the problem and getting back on track. Then, looking back, I screwed up! I started telling them how I was not a fan of HiPoint guns as my experience was that they weren't reliable. I started extolling the virtues of Glock's and Sigs. I put down their gun. I should NOT have done that. I should have made the entire experience more positive. I spoke my bias rather than used facts. That is where I went wrong.

Looking back, I don't know if they could afford a better gun or not. They only had one box of 50 rounds between them. I ended up providing some range ammo to them, including some HST's for home defense. I gave them some to shoot to make sure the gun functioned with the HP's (it did) and then gave them enough to load the magazine for at home.

Good, yes. But I could have done better.

 

[kidneyboy]

I guess Second Amendment does ensure First Amendment.

There is no guessing about it. When one goes away so does the other. There is a reason they are the 1st and 2nd amendment.

At the risk of hurting feelings, which I am trying to avoid, I started this thread as a general discussion to try and point out how we, as a "pro-firearms community", really need to better come together on what we can agree on versus what we can't.

The only effective way to judge anyones unity and acceptance is by looking them in the eyes while you are talking to them. You can't do that here on the very anonymous internet.

 

[champ0608]

It may do the gun owning community some good to realize that there are MANY gun loving liberals.

 

[LiveLife]

I started this thread as a general discussion to try and point out how we, as a "pro-firearms community", really need to better come together on what we can agree on versus what we can't ... I'm trying to make this thread about the gun community attacking ourselves from within and how we need to try and stop it where we can. It's about the OPPORTUNITY to embrace new shooters and folks who may have been/currently be against us, but now see our world as a place that police are under attack and response times are increasing...they are beginning to realize that they are their own first responders, and perhaps a gun in their home, as foreign a concept to them as it was, would be a good thing.

Are we really?

I think what you see on forums may not accurately reflect/represent what really happens in real life. I mean, is Facebook and how people present themselves on social media true representation of them in real life? Based on what I have seen, no. And keep in mind that not all gun owners participate on gun forums like not everyone does social media.

As to interacting with potential/new gun owners, I grew up in CA and through the 70s to present, watched endless anti-gun laws get introduced, passed, sued, reversed, appealed and waiting for SCOTUS review. (Yes, contrary to many "public notions", there were many anti-gun laws that were ruled unconstitutional and permanently reversed in CA)

I worked 26 years for state of CA before retirement and in various departments I worked at, I was often surrounded by anti-gun coworkers (along with many friends and neighbors) who questioned my choice of gun ownership and recreation of competition shooting. What I noticed was many of them never spent time on gun forums or hung out at gun ranges before they became gun owners. One by one, they became gun owners because something happened in their lives (robbery/burglary to them or someone they knew or increasing concern for crime rate with slow response by police which was often pointed out by me ). And whenever they showed interest in gun ownership, I happily took them shooting and helped them pick out guns and trained them to shoot (Casual defensive shooting to match shooting to include point shooting) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...shooting-for-those-with-vision-issues.891558/

In the recent decade, I have noticed many younger generations show interest in shooting (Perhaps influenced by first person shooting video games growing up? I was one in my 20s playing original Quake and Unreal Tournament building my own gaming computers and can relate to these younger gamers as "old school gamer" ) and interaction between seasoned gun owners with new gun owners have been positive with both showing excitement for a common interest. Personally, all the gun owners and match shooters I have met "IRL/in real life" over the decades have been way above average in terms of friendliness and generosity in wanting to share the knowledge related to the hobby and passion for gun ownership and training.

As to "put downs" of Ford vs Chevy you mentioned on gun forums, my brother in law taught automotive at a college and participated in many custom car shows before retirement. Over the years attending these car shows where large group of builders attended, just like what I saw at gun ranges, I did not see "Ford vs Chevy" arguments rather complimentary comments from Chevy guy on Ford car and vice versa. Sometimes, Chevy guy will use a Ford rear end. And Ford guy will use a Chevy front suspension. Growing up, my dad was into restoring 40s to 60s cars and I learned to work on fuel injection before learning to rebuild carburetors. While I embraced the benefits of fuel injection, older car guys stuck to simplicity of carburetors but now with younger "rice burner" tuners focusing on programming turbo charged 4/6 cylinder engines, I see even older V8 guys embracing benefits of fuel injection.

On gun forums, you will often see 1911 vs Glock "put downs" that used to be revolver vs semi-auto "put downs" in past decades. I do not believe such "put downs" will ever end and do not see as an issue for potential/new gun owners viewing gun forums. I think people become gun owners for many reasons and do not think they will change their minds because they do not see "unity" on gun forums regarding various gun related topics of discussion. Instead, I believe they will choose sides to join the "put downs" themselves.

I think it's human nature. My mother and wife sew and on sewing machine forums, it's Bernina vs the rest "put downs" Wife breeds chickens and oh boy, there are some very opinionated breed comparisons on Backyard Chicken Forum (Largest in the world) but that doesn't mean people will be pushed away from sewing or raising chickens.

I truly believe we have "unity" because we choose to hang out exercising our "First Amendment" on public gun forums. I see "put downs" as normal human behavior as Ford vs Chevy "put downs" will transition to ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vs Electric in the near future. Wife was surprised when I entertained the idea of instead of getting a Corvette C8 rather considering Ford F150 Lightning, yes electric truck from an "old school" diesel truck fan. And believe me, my wife has been "putting down" diesel vs gas arguments for 28 years of marriage until we got our retirement travel trailer and she got to tow it with our Ram EcoDiesel and went, "Wow, it tows it pretty well".

So while we disagreed with many things during our 28 years of marriage, we are still "happily married".

 

[kidneyboy]

it's Bernina vs the rest

Umm, It's Bernina then the rest

 

[LiveLife]

OK, I listened to the entire podcast.

The premise of the show was "Protect Gun Rights for the Next 20 Years" and host/guest were discussing that 10 million new gun owners bought their first guns last year and these new gun owners may be seeing inappropriate "put down" content on gun forums and social media outlets that may not be pro 2A. And how do we make "inclusiveness" part of gun culture to get them out shooting at public ranges, shooting matches and encourage these young liberal Democrat voters to vote for gun rights.

First of all, much of that has already taken place on THR due to good moderation and forum rules that are applied here. This is one of many reasons why I chose to start posting on THR away from other gun forums. And I have noticed that even on other gun forums over the years, members' postings have become more "inclusive" of younger generation gun owners. I can't speak for social media as I choose to not participate and only minimally engage just so I can view pertinent family contents and RMR's FB group.

How do we get these new gun owners out shooting? Whenever younger progressive/liberal Democrat voting coworkers inquire about gun ownership and want to try shooting guns, I have seen seasoned gun owners (including myself) jump at the chance and offer to take them shooting. Very quickly discussion focuses on the importance of gun ownership pertaining to individual right to protection when police response is slow or not available (primary reason for wanting gun ownership) then need for practice/training. Of course, concealed carry permit process follows with gun selection discussion right behind.

I have taken hundreds of people shooting and trained them, many of them lifetime Democrat, feminist and LGBTQ. My approach to all of them has been that gun rights is not a partisan issue rather individual "rights issue". In recent years, I hardly needed to say much about why they needed guns, they already knew (slow police response, public unrest/shootings/riots, increasing crime rate, etc.). Believe me, they watch the news too and often are quite well educated, even on firearms as there's Google and Youtube.

To the dismay of anti-gunners, I believe the notion of "gun culture" is already growing and spreading fast among younger generations clearly expressed by number of guns sold and current ammunition shortage (These millions of guns need to be fed, right?). As to "put downs", I really believe these younger gun owners are better informed than we anticipate and may view "put down" forum discussions similar to product review comments on Amazon, Yelp, etc. So being ourselves and continuing with 1911 vs Glock and my gun is better than your gun forum discussions may actually be beneficial. Besides, not even moderators can stop these "put downs".

As to encouraging them to vote for gun rights? I think anti-gunners have done that work for us very well. As soon as someone buys a gun and enjoys shooting it, last thing they want is to have their guns taken away. I have read quite a few times when liberal/LGBTQ gun owners are covered, they state they know how to organize, mobilize and donate/fund their cause and their participation may bring in fresh wind behind our fight for gun rights. I have been told by quite a few people who I taught that they have included gun rights as key priorities for their voting. With historic record setting gun/ammunition sales, I hope some of the profits and donation from new gun owners find their way to gun rights efforts.

 

[Buzznrose]

LiveLife,

I don’t disagree with most of what you say. All I’m saying is I don’t want to take new gun owners for granted. LOTS of liberals who bought guns are still voting for folks like Biden. Some are lost causes…but I think some can be turned. But I take none of them for granted.

if you’ve been brainwashed for years how great and caring Liberals are, it’s hard to turn on a dime and reverse course.

 

[LiveLife]

LOTS of liberals who bought guns are still voting for folks like Biden. Some are lost causes…but I think some can be turned. But I take none of them for granted.

if you’ve been brainwashed for years how great and caring Liberals are, it’s hard to turn on a dime and reverse course.

This is my sentiment.

1. There are people, regardless whether they are conservative Republican or liberal Democrat, who will not change their voting pattern just because they bought guns.
2. There are people, regardless of party affiliation, who will vote pro 2A because they bought guns.
3. There are people who will not vote even after buying guns.

So looking at group #2, what internal/external influences will encourage them to vote pro 2A?

 

[Monac]

deleted because in error.

 

[LiveLife]

In this archived thread, we examined growing groups of liberal, progressive, LGBTQ and minority (which is the fastest growing segment of population) gun owners support gun rights and why - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/re-training-of-firearms-related-information.849620/

My opinion based on what I have seen during my life experience is that decision to become a gun owner is often a very personal process and LISTENING to these groups explain why is a good approach to understanding what WE SHOULD DO to be more "inclusive" and "welcoming". However, I believe the decision to become a gun owner and how much we pursue the sport really doesn't depend on what we read on gun forums. I think many people tend to filter out what they don't need and filter in what they need.

Let's ask ourselves how and why we chose to become gun owners and whether our decision to hunt and pursue gun sports and collection was dependent on what we read on gun forums. For me, no effect whatsoever.

 

[Buzznrose]

This is my sentiment.

1. There are people, regardless whether they are conservative Republican or liberal Democrat, who will not change their voting pattern just because they bought guns.
2. There are people, regardless of party affiliation, who will vote pro 2A because they bought guns.
3. There are people who will not vote even after buying guns.

So looking at group #2, what internal/external influences will encourage them to vote pro 2A?

? Not sure what you are asking. Did you mean group #2?

 

[SquidBubble]

I see occasional instances of unity and acceptance and that's about it. Over on arfcom for example, I once expressed my stance on a certain social issue that's frequently expressed by the left, even though I'm neither left nor right. I was immediately branded as the enemy, despite the fact that I'm as pro-2A as they come. And that's just one example of my personal experience. Countless times I've seen gun owners viciously turn on each other over just about any topic you can think of. With such rampant tribalism and cannibalism, it's no small wonder why we're losing the culture war.

 

[LiveLife]

Not sure what you are asking. Did you mean group #2?

Yes, I meant group #2 and I kinda already answered in my post #16.

My opinion based on growing up in CA, particularly Los Angeles area where liberal progressive Democrats were common along with feminists/LGBTQ/minorities produced the sentiment that voting for cause is not readily swayed unless personal events cause that change. The most common causes I have seen were rape, violent attack, robbery, burglary, theft, property destruction, murder whether experienced first hand or by family/friends/neighbors that made them become gun owners and supporters of gun rights (This was mirrored when I worked 26 years for CA state government and I was surprised to see so many liberal coworkers become gun owners/CCW permit carriers when crime rate increased, especially after federal judge released the inmates from CA prisons)..

While I agree that gun forum participation with less "put down" may help, I am not sure if that will be enough to encourage one to become supporters of gun rights. I believe people buy guns for self protection and as long as that threat persists, they will want to keep owning the gun. And if they have the option to vote for gun rights or rather not want to lose their guns, they may privately vote for gun rights while publicly expressing anti-gun sentiment to their family/friends/neighbors/coworkers and social media.

That's why I am less concerned about what's posted on gun forums as when it is time to vote, I have a feeling these new gun owners who want to keep their guns for self protection will likely vote for gun rights.

I know of cases where husbands/wives even told their significant others how they voted but told me they voted the other way.