UNIVERSAL difficult to meter?

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm not surprised. Alliant told me back in 2016 they removed Red Dot from their hand gun loads list because many powder dispensers just don't meter it very accurately. I suspect Universal is similar in that respect.

They still list handgun loads for Red Dot but they no longer list Red Dot as a handgun powder. It's an interesting dichotomy given Red Dot has been around since 1935 and has been listed as both a shotshell and pistol/revolver powder from the beginning. I guess time and marketing caught up to it, finally. There are just so many "better" choices out there now, it probably doesn't pay to list and test such old powders anymore. Why use granddad's clunky old Red Dot when the new hotness of BE86 is on the shelf?

 

[jski]

The thing that amazed me about Universal was that only 0.4 grains separate the max load for the 45 ACP and the max load for 45 Super. Both with a 230 gr FMJ bullet. That's why accurately metering this powder is so important.

 

[Bill M.]

I see your point. There is a 2.2 grain differential between max and min in the loads shown for .357. Also the velocity seems to change more per grain with the .45 ACP loads. I do not load .45. The answers I can think of are to change powders, weigh each load, or live with the variation you are getting from the drops. I doubt if you are going to do a lot better on drops. My use for Universal has always been for light loads in large cases with a lot of space. All I worry about is to not double charge and do not drop down enough to stick a bullet.

 

[Walkalong]

It's just not that big of a deal, you'll never see it on paper.

 

[onegunred]

I suffered with this a few years back. It would not meter thru my RCBS Uniflow, tried and tried. Chop chop sticky like cutting raw rice. I called Hodgden and spoke with a tech. I told him I had used up all my Australian made Universal and bought the Canadian made stuff. He told me that when they began making it in Canada that the formulation had changed and they added a coating to the flakes. He said that the Lee measures would work. His closing words where something like they messed up a good powder. I sold 7.5# to a Lee measure owner and replaced it with BE-86.

 

[jski]

It's just not that big of a deal, you'll never see it on paper.

Let me ask this: I’m loading for the 45 AR. If I want 5.8 gr of Universal but throw 6.0 gr, am I in trouble?

 

[Bill M.]

I do not load for .45 AR and have not seen the data. My take would be that if 6 is the max listed or under the max listed you are okay. If 5.8 is the max listed and you throw 6 I think you need to load to lower drop. And it working in a narrow range maybe you should weigh the loads. That is always the Lee manual suggestion for max loads.

 

[Walkalong]

What @Bill M. said, which is what I said earlier.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Let me ask this: I’m loading for the 45 AR. If I want 5.8 gr of Universal but throw 6.0 gr, am I in trouble?

If you set your measure for under goal, weigh every throw and trickle up to your goal, you will never be over or under. Period. If you aren’t willing to do that, pick another powder that throws consistently from your measure and roll the dice that it’s never wrong. Seems pretty simple.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

What @Bill M. said, which is what I said earlier.

Yeah, but, what do us old farts know? Never did hear back if he followed proper setup and cleaned the thing before trying it.

 

[Bill M.]

I can not answer for the OP. I am an old fart. I did not take my new Redding powder measure apart and clean it before I used it. Never heard of doing that. It looks pretty clean. I did run a little powder through it. Powder does not seem to be sticking to anything. My Uniflow came unassembled so I wiped it with a cloth first. What solvent do you use to do the cleaning?

 

[Walkalong]

I use isopropyl alcohol to clean a measure, when I do. Always run several drops, 5-20 - powder depending on the powder, to settle it down before checking weights or charging cases. Practice your technique to make it consistent, always do a consistent little tap on the down stroke.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I can not answer for the OP. I am an old fart. I did not take my new Redding powder measure apart and clean it before I used it. Never heard of doing that. It looks pretty clean. I did run a little powder through it. Powder does not seem to be sticking to anything. My Uniflow came unassembled so I wiped it with a cloth first. What solvent do you use to do the cleaning?

I use alcohol.

 

[jski]

As time consuming as it was, I ended up putting aside my digital scale and went back to ground truth, my OHaus 10-10 pan scale. I weighed each individual load. It was ± 0.2 grains more often than dead on, so I’d just throw another charge. Very slow going!

As problematic as it is, you wouldn’t think Universal would be as popular as it appears to be?

 

[Walkalong]

A lot of pistol powder don't meter much better than that.

 

[Bill M.]

One think I do know is that I would rather have variance in drops than to go to a complicated procedure that could lead to a possible double charge or missed charge. Look at the big picture as well as the details.

 

[wcwhitey]

As time consuming as it was, I ended up putting aside my digital scale and went back to ground truth, my OHaus 10-10 pan scale. I weighed each individual load. It was ± 0.2 grains more often than dead on, so I’d just throw another charge. Very slow going!

As problematic as it is, you wouldn’t think Universal would be as popular as it appears to be?

Consistent set up, measure many times before you start. I throw at least 3 into the cup and put it back measuring the 4th. Once you think you have it there dump five and check 1, if that works a few times check in 10. Practice your “throw stroke” and keep it as consistent as possible, it does matter. After measuring the 10th give the hopper a tap or two so powder settles, it matters. Little things that will become muscle memory that help throws become more consistent. Speed is made up by performing 1 stage at a time in batches. Clean brass, then de-deprime and size in lots. I flair and prime on my RCBS in the same stage. Bag this brass in 100 round lots with a piece of desiccant for future loading (usually a week or two). I come back at another time and set up the scale and powder thrower. Brass in trays of 50 I do nothing else but dump and measure powder. After 100 or two I seat and crimp. I do not own a digital scale for powder purposes. All Ohaus scales that I check zero on periodically. Repetition and consistency transfers over to better ammo, helps eliminate mistakes and waste.

 

[jski]

Well, I’ll say this for Universal, Unique wasn’t any easier to meter.

 

[jski]

Consistent set up, measure many time before you start. I throw at least 3 into the cup and put it back measuring the 4th. Once you think you have it there dump five and check 1, if that works a few times check in 10. Practice your “throw stroke” and keep it as consistent as possible, it does matter. After measuring the 10th give the hopper a tap or two so powder settles, it matters. Little things that will become muscle memory that help throws become more consistent. Speed is made up by performing 1 stage at a time in batches. Clean brass, then de-deprime and dice in lots. I flair and prime on my RCBS in the same stage. Bag this brass in 100 round lots with a piece of desiccant for future loading (usually a week or two). I come back at another time and set up the scale and powder thrower. Brass in trays of 50 I do nothing else but dump and measure powder. After 100 or two I seat and crimp. Again I weigh at least every 10th round. I do not own a digital scale for powder purposes. All Ohaus scales that I check zero on periodically. Repetition and consistency transfers over to better ammo, helps eliminate mistakes and waste.

When I threw a charge that was ± 0.2 grains, I would throw several charges into the pan and pour it back into the hopper. That helped.

But one thing I noticed, whenever I cut one of the powder flakes, that charge was almost always off.

 

[wcwhitey]

When I threw a charge that was ± 0.2 grains, I would throw several charges into the pan and pour it back into the hopper. That helped.

But one thing I noticed, whenever I cut one of the powder flakes, that charge was almost always off.

Do you have a fan running in your reloading room, is there any breeze? Without running this into the ground is this load the max published load, if it is throw low and trickle up, you should do this with any powder at max load so as to not go over. If it is on the low end or middle and .2 is not in the danger zone don’t sweat it. You won’t notice a difference for plinking ammo. There may be better powders for the combo but if you have a bunch shoot it and don’t fret. Even if it’s below the minimum suggested by .1 who cares the company wants you to start at 10% low anyway.

 

[ballman6711]

Speed is made up by performing 1 stage at a time in batches.

This ^^^^

Repetition and consistency transfers over to better ammo, helps eliminate mistakes and waste.

And this ^^^^

I load on a single stage and weigh every charge, no matter which powder I use or how consistent it throws. With a stick powder I get some variation, so I trickle up if it's light or dump that pan into the trickler if it's heavy, then just dump the trickler back into the hopper when I'm finished.

chris

 

[derek45]

It meters perfectly through my DILLON powder measure.

 

[higgite]

It meters perfectly through my DILLON powder measure.

Then your DILLON powder measure is better than my DILLON powder measure.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Seems to me the root of the problem is using a “meter” instead of a measure. Use a measure and scale. Throw low and trickle up. Problem solved.

 

[BrotherMaynard]

I picked up a used RCBS Uniflow II earlier this year to use for smaller charge weights (<10 gr). The previous owner broke it in for me so I was able to hit the ground running. Earlier today, I filled the hopper 3/4 full of Universal, gave it a few taps with the handle of a screwdriver to settle things, and then threw a dozen to get into the groove (these were dumped back into the hopper). Once I had my groove on, I threw 50 as if I were filling cases (dumping to a container instead of back into the hopper). The results were:

min = 5.3
max = 5.7
range = 5.3-5.7
mean = 5.512
sd = 0.091

Frequency Table
Value, Frequency, %Occurrence
5.3, 1, 2.00
5.4, 13, 26.00
5.5, 17, 34.00
5.6, 17, 34.00
5.7, 2, 4.00

5.5 gr happened to be where I last set it.

I am in the "throw under and trickle up" camp and have also noticed that when I encounter resistance on the throw, the charge weight tends to be off. I typically throw those back into the hopper but did not do so this time. I measured the first 50, irrespective of whether they were good or questionable.