Unknown Cartridge Help!

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JimKirk

JimKirk

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I got a cartridge I can't find any thing on .... I thought you guys may know what it could be .... these measurements were taken with a good caliper and taken multiple times

Rimless case .400" rim diameter ...
Case body .400" ... diameter...
Case length 2.46"
Rim Thickness 0.07"
Case mouth 0.310"
Body diameter at shoulder .342"
Shoulder begins .448" down from case mouth...
Boxer primed ...Small rifle...
no markings on head ... nothing...

Do you have any idea ... I have searched high and low and found nothing that matches.... have not even found a cartridge that could serve as a parent cartridge if this happens to be a wildcat ...

Thank for your help!


Unknowncartridge1_zpsuuauqjvc.jpg
 
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Thanks Rob and USAF....

USAF ... I have already search through both those list and many other old cartridge list ... I can find nothing even close ...

Rob.... Will touch a magnet as soon as I can get back to it ...
 
It might not be a small arms cartridge at all. One possibility is an igniter for a large caliber artillery piece or naval gun. It could also be a mortar igniter (though it isn't any I know of). It could even have nothing to do with firearms or explosives, like a starter cartridge for an aircraft engine, a cartridge for an ejector seat, a cable cutter round, etc. Just to show that not everything that looks like a firearms cartridge is a firearms cartridge.

Jim
 
Could you post a better close up of the rim?

It looks rounded like a rolled Rimfire rim, rather then a V as you would expect on an extractor groove.

And I agree with Jim K, as I said in reply to your PM when I suggested you post it here.

It may very well be something else besides a rifle cartridge.
Perhaps even dating way back in time to the civil war, considering where you told me it was found.
And that it is copper, not brass.


Close-up photo of the head & rim might help rule out rifle cartridge though.

Personally, I doubt it is a rifle cartridge, as there is nothing I know of matching the measurements it could be based on.

rc
 
I will try to post a better photo of the rim/head area ... but is is center fire and has what looks to be a small rifle primer with one flash hole ...so it appears to be boxer primed ... the primer is not fired ...
 
Maybe an old Sharps, Ballard, Winchester etc ... single shot rifle cartridge case?
Just guessing here, but those and a few other companies made single shot rifles in the .38- .44 caliber range as well as the more well known "Buffalo rifles".
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Andy
 
Looks like an internal primer.

Look at BENET, MARTIN and BAR ANVIL here:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=glossary

Still think it predates modern boxer or berdan primers by quite a few years.

The pronounced bottle-neck wouldn't typically be period.

But again.
Considering where you told me you found it?
And it's copper, not brass?

I'd guess some kind of civil war period cannon shell fuse, or igniter.

rc
 
It doesn't look like any CW artillery fuze or primer I knw of. It almost looks like a Martin primed case, but it is not. I suspect it might not be a cartridge or igniter at all and the "primer" is just made as part of the case. Similar "things" have been made to simulate cartridges for use in toy guns, hunting gear displays, or for other purposes. I have an aluminum "cartridge" in which the "bullet" comes off to reveal a cigarette lighter. Others concealed pencils, ball pens, screwdrivers, etc.

Jim
 
If the primer is unfired and yet there is not a bullet...sounds like a paper patched cartridge that the nitrated paper rotted away and the bullet fell out and lost. I'm now on the hunt too. :D

There's a picture of a Russian rimless black powder hunting cartridge that's very close to your picture with only slight dimension variances.



Some of the 7mm cartridges are very close to that neck diameter. Rigby's?
 
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Radagast ... Thanks ...I'll give that a look ....

Bexar .... I like your thoughts about how the bullet got out ... I believe it would fit that time period that paper patch bullets were used.... yes there are "some" close ... but yet none that I or anybody else so far ... have been able to match all the measurements .... thanks for "hunting" ... I've turned stones and found cartridges that I never even remotely thought about being made ....
 
JimKirk said:
Radagast ... Thanks ...I'll give that a look ....

Bexar .... I like your thoughts about how the bullet got out ... I believe it would fit that time period that paper patch bullets were used.... yes there are "some" close ... but yet none that I or anybody else so far ... have been able to match all the measurements .... thanks for "hunting" ... I've turned stones and found cartridges that I never even remotely thought about being made ....
Click to expand...
Another clue is the copper case material. Researching it seems that copper wasn't used as material post 1940. The 8mmX63 Swede was a parent to a 7mm round that again is pretty close. Have you contacted any on-line obsolete cartridge sellers? Some of those folks are scary they are so knowledgeable. I'll keep looking. Someone mentioned about where you found it. That could be helpful too. Well...I've got evening "have to" to do so keep us posted on any new clues. Some guy will know something...which will help another etc...Thanks...Bexar
 
Found in Atlanta, GA ...

This case has a .400" diameter rim .... the 8 x 63 Swede is even bigger than the .473" of the .30/06 .... the Swede is .480" ...
 
Given that this case has been somewhat beat up, is it possible that some of these measurements are off at least some? The thing that comes closest in my books is the 7.7x58 Arisaka, and most WW2 Japanese ammo didn't have headstamps. Maybe someone who brought home a Type 99 and a few rounds?
 
The picture of the base of that casing, in my mind, excludes it from being a center fire rifle case, at least from the smokeless powder era. I don't know what it is but I don't think it is anything of the smokeless center fire genre.
 
And neither do I.

The Rim & extractor groove look funky from the side.
( More like a folded case head.)

And the primer view looks less like a Boxer or Berdan primer.
(More like a dummy, or an internal primer.)

I'm not convinced it it is a rifle case.

But one of several guesses posted above.

Still, the OP PM'd early on before posting, and I told him the same thing, and suggested he post photos of it here.

At that time he told me it was found during a foundation excavation in a historic civil war city in the south.

So I assumed it didn't fall out of a modern rifle anytime in the bottleneck smokeless power age!!!

JimKirk
Come back and tell everyone where & how it was found please!!
(Maybe I'm imaging things???)

rc
 
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Sorry guys ... been very busy the last few days and failed to check back in on this thread ....

But yes the cartridge was found in the North part of Atlanta, GA .... a friend actually found it while digging a foundation footer for a building .... Yes it is in rather bad condition ... but enough(multiple) measurements where taken to arrive at the listed dimensions .... and yes the cartridge(or what ever it is) appears to be copper and some filings react quick to dark blue when placed in ammonia...

It may be a toy as some suggested .... but it does have a single primer flash hole inside the case ... I don't really think a toy maker would go to the trouble to place a single flash hole in a toy case ... as you see the primer(if that is what it is) does not have a indent of a firing pin...
 
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