Unknown Person Trying To Get In Your Bubble

[Trunk Monkey]

This is something that I see often in relation to the open carry debate.

On many gun forums I read comments by people that see a person open carrying and feel the need to approach the person to either express support or express disdain. In one case the poster said that while minding his own business in a Wal Mart someone actually ran up to him to compare guns. (Yeah, because that couldn't have ended badly or anything)

I don’t understand the mindset. When I’m out and about I don’t care to be approached by random strangers and I certainly don’t care to have a random stranger specifically pick me out of the crowd and try to get inside my bubble. As I’ve stated elsewhere I view that behavior as an interview and I respond accordingly by going into a low orange mode*

I don’t always see this behavior only in relation to open carry, I remember one man that all but made a speech to me about how much he enjoyed smoking and how he didn’t care to be told he couldn’t ( I was a smoker at the time and hadn’t said word one to him.)

I think this is a pretty narrow set of circumstances but do you think about it before you approach people you don’t know? If you did happen to see someone open carrying would you feel the need to get into their bubble (either way)? How would you react if it happened to you? How do you react when random people go out of their way to enter your bubble in public?


*Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

 

[LemmyCaution]

1: I don't live in a 'bubble.'

2: Neither do you. One goes out in public. There are people there. Occasionally, one is compelled to interact with them. One can deal with them skillfully or badly, but the expectation that one will not have to deal with others is unreasonable. One may feel that one is entitled to a certain amount of inviolable personal space (which is what I think you mean by 'bubble'), but that is neither legally nor socially normative. Anything one does in public may draw the undesired attention of others. There is nothing special about open carry in this regard. Don't like it? Stay home. Otherwise, go about your business, just as one would if approached by a stranger over one's delightful orange shirt, or one's toothsome, well behaved children.

But for Pete's sake, can we not start another concern <deleted> thread about open carry? Please?

 

[Al Thompson]

Nice link to the color codes.

 

[herrwalther]

Removing the open vs concealed portion of your observations, because we have sufficiently beaten that horse enough. I have multiple "bubbles" of awareness I like to practice. I do, however strongly dislike the color coded scheme of awareness. I think it is a rather childish breakdown. As I am just used to "keeping my head on a swivel."

Being situationally aware is something we ALL should practice. The argument we use for carrying firearms is to be prepared in the event of a self defense situation. Situational awareness will help you avoid potentially bad situations first or react accordingly when they cannot be avoided. Use multiple bubbles of awareness. The closer someone gets, the more attention they bring but you should not discount other possible threats.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

If possible let’s step away from Open Carry for a second.

Last weekend someone I didn’t know approached me in church to ask me a question about my shoes.

It was during the worship service which is about as close as I get to “Condition White” in public and I didn’t even know he was there until he tapped me.

Apparently he had seen me walking to the bathroom while he was sitting in the foyer and had followed me into the family sanctuary to ask about my shoes.

I went straight to Orange as soon as he touched me I asked him if I could help him and he asked me where I got my shoes. I’ve had people tell me that I over reacted and I don’t think I did.

I didn’t blade up on the guy I didn’t raise my voice I just focused on the guy , watched his hands , started trying to read his visual cues.


I guess it was my weekend because after church I was waiting for my wife at the elevator and someone I've never seen before stepped off the elevator, walked right up to me and stuck his hand out and wished me "God Bless you sir." I saw him coming and had to change gears in my brain a little to respond appropriately

Because that’s who I am I think twice before approach another person in public and I make damn sure I announce myself before entering their space. (I personally think that approaching someone like that during worship is never appropriate but that’s a different topic) Clearly this guy never even thought about it.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I don't live in a 'bubble.'

Actually, most folks do. The size of the 'bubble' is generally dictated by a given person's culture, and it's sometimes called "social distance." See http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/social_distance.htm for discussion.

Since cultural factors dictate social distance, individuals from different cultures often manifest different social (or conversational) distances. At social functions where I used to work, it was interesting to see Americans get 'chased' around the room by individuals from other nations where the conversational distance was much closer than that most Americans are accustomed to maintaining. One of the things we used to emphasize in training in cross-cultural communications was an understanding of and acceptance of varying social distances in different cultures. One of the more useful reference sources we used was called CultureGrams - http://culturegrams.com/.

 

[MedWheeler]

Trunk Monkey writes:

I went straight to Orange as soon as he touched me I asked him if I could help him and he asked me where I got my shoes. I’ve had people tell me that I over reacted and I don’t think I did.

People thought you overreacted because you asked him if you could help him?

What are you leaving out?

 

[aarondhgraham]

I'm in agreement with herrwalther on one point,,,

I think it is a rather childish breakdown. As I am just used to "keeping my head on a swivel."

I agree with this in large part,,,
In my opinion a person shouldn't need "schemes" like this,,,
In my opinion and experience they muddle the meaning of their true purpose.

But I am also a trained educator,,,
So I bow to the practice,,,
I just don't use it.

It's like Jeff Coopers 4 rules,,,
Col Cooper was obviously a military man,,,
And the military just adores their pedantic statements.

In fact, he's the one who came up with this debatable color coding system,,,
Which by the way does nothing to enhance ones awareness,,,
It simply codifies a common terminology,,,
So it's easier to discuss.

Bear in mind that I am an 8 year veteran of the military,,,
In fact I am an honor graduate of the USAF Instructor Academy,,,
So you can believe me when I say I'm very familiar with their curriculum theories.

I also have a B.S and a M.S in Occupational Education and Curriculum Development.

I'm not trying to brag here,,,
I'm just establishing my "bona fides".

<RANT>

For example, take his first rule:

All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

The second half of the rule contradicts the first half.

Why not just state:
Always treat every gun as if it were loaded.

It makes more sense to simply state the plain truth,,,
Explain the meaning and the intent of the rule,,,
But don't tell them an obvious falsehood,,,
And expect them to buy into it.

Unless you are dealing with idiots,,,
Who shouldn't have a gun in the first place

I work at a major state university in a student computer lab,,,
I have made friends with many of the undergrads,,,
Students and student workers.

I have taught many of them basic gun handling,,,
Several of those have purchased handguns,,,
Many of those now have a carry permit.

I take his rules and reword them to make sense,,,
I don't try to "fool" my students into accepting them.

They learn the actual purpose behind the rules,,,
Without the childish ambiguity of an obvious falsehood.

</RANT>

The color code don't enhance the students learning of situational awareness,,,
They simply make it easier for the instructor to lecture about them.

Unfortunately a lot of curriculum is designed around the teachers ease,,,
Not especially about the most beneficial method to the student.

Aarond

P.S. I once "earned" a suspension from another forum,,,
For having the audacity to challenge his system.

.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^^



Fred Fuller makes a good point about social distances, and cultural awareness of same. There are many people however who are not sensitive to the nuances of others desires and cannot figure out in real time where they mighr be causing discomfort. It may not be intentional, and so it's important to be aware without being paranoid.

Coopers color codes are just one way of codifying awareness levels. Simply being aware that different levels are approproate for different situations is sufficient to use them as a training discussion point.

Just as an aside, your writing would be more cogent with a few less
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Commas.



Willie

.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

People thought you overreacted because you asked him if you could help him?

What are you leaving out

?

Sorry I don't think I communicated clearly. That was 2 separate things.

I posted on another forum that if random people approach me and attempt to engage me in conversation just out of the blue I tend to treat it like I would an interview and I tend to go into Orange mode.

The other person stated that to go into orange mode just because some one approaches you was an over reaction. ( I don't believe it is)

The guy with the shoes was just an example of me doing that.

 

[1911 guy]

If you don't live in a bubble, start doing so now. You'll live longer.

This "bubble" is the sphere of awareness of what is round you. As the cartoon Shrek would say, it's like an onion. It has layers. When you simply notice things many yards out, it removes the element of surprise when Mr Jones comes to within handshake distance. You've seen him coming for 30 seconds now.

With variance due to cultural issues, people approach one another in very programmed ways. We stand a given distance from someone in a line. We begin a greeting from a certain distance away. We do all these things to NOT set off alarm bells. When someone deviates from this, they set the bells to clanging. Then you have to decide if they are socially inept, mean you ill will or there is a circumstance modifying the social norm that you have not noticed. Which you might have if you had previously established your own bubble. I'll keep living in mine, thanks.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think perhaps I've misunderstood a term of self defense jargon. I was unaware of the definition of 'bubble' given by 1911 guy above.

But my lack of savvy to the jargon (and it is jargon, as are the color codes) does not mean that I lack situational awareness (which is also jargon, but at least not dependent on a metaphor of ambiguous meaning).

Regardless, I see little utility in defining demarcated spheres of awareness. In my opinion, if something is within the range of my senses, it should get some attention. If that thing warrants further attention, it gets it, regardless of its distance from me.

For example, a person openly carrying a rifle at 60 meters is going to get a lot more attention from me than a man 1 meter from me doing nothing that falls outside normative behavior.

A man approaching close enough to put his hand on my shoulder and lean in to speak directly in my ear is completely normative in high sound pressure environments.

In other words, context is everything. And it is because of this that crude metaphors like 'bubble' break down. And so I reiterate- there is no 'bubble.' There's everything you can perceive, and there's an infinite gradation of attention one can choose to devote to it.

But the bigger issue is when people take issue with others violating one's 'bubble.' The problem is that others have equal autonomy to one's own. And others may not be operating under the same assumptions you are, particularly if you are conducting yourself according to specific definitions that are not broadly shared culturally (cf- 'bubble'). One is holding others to expectations that are not communicated and agreed upon prior.

One will find that many people violate one's 'bubble,' because the bubble is a product of the mind, and not an actual thing with defined, perceptible borders.

And suddenly changing one's affect when others cross the imaginary skin of a bubble they can not see and don't know one has established will likely cause social awkwardness, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

 

[Sam1911]

So what is the actual question here?

This is something that I see often in relation to the open carry debate.

As already established, we aren't going down the open carry debate path again, so out of that context, what is the question?

In one case the poster said that while minding his own business in a Wal Mart someone actually ran up to him to compare guns. (Yeah, because that couldn't have ended badly or anything)

People do that sort of thing often. Hey, you've got the same band t-shirt as I do, I'm going to hurry over to tell you how much I also enjoy the melodic stylings of "Jack Carrotwhack and the Beet Poets!" We should talk about them now and become friends...

Or, I happened to notice that you're wearing a Hi-Point hat and matching lapel pin. I also use and recommend their products. We should connect and share a little bit of this existence as like-minded peers.

I don’t understand the mindset. When I’m out and about I don’t care to be approached by random strangers and I certainly don’t care to have a random stranger specifically pick me out of the crowd and try to get inside my bubble.

Ok, so? People do that. Better get used to it. Probably should have gotten used to it by now, but better late than never. We live in a society, and that comes with certain risks like having people come up to you for one reason or another.

As I’ve stated elsewhere I view that behavior as an interview and I respond accordingly by going into a low orange mode*

Ok. It is an interview of some sort. To assume it is a criminal interview is a bit over-the-top, but just as this person is assessing you to see if you're really the kind of great guy who normally listens to "The Beet Poets" like he does, you are assessing HIM to see if he's a friendly guy wanting to swap 8-tracks with you or if he's about to stick a blade into your spleen. Be as aware as you can, and be capable of reaction -- but being socially awkward will just harm you.

I don’t always see this behavior only in relation to open carry, I remember one man that all but made a speech to me about how much he enjoyed smoking and how he didn’t care to be told he couldn’t ( I was a smoker at the time and hadn’t said word one to him.)

Hmmm... member of an increasingly ostracized group reaching out to another seemingly sympathetic human? Sounds familiar.

I think this is a pretty narrow set of circumstances but do you think about it before you approach people you don’t know?

Of course. I don't really even approach very many people. But it is important to do so sometimes, and important to be able to receive such an approach graciously. Even that king of the fun party people, Gen. Mattis, started off his famous quote about having a plan to kill everyone you meet with the phrase, "Be polite,..."

Different cultures have completely different ideas of what appropriate social distances are. We live in a very diverse world. You're going to meet some folks who get entirely too close.

Much more commonly, we all move through social situations which are quite different from each other with regards to what is acceptable. If you're going to attend any of a great many types of religious gathering you'd better get comfortable with "strangers" (hey, man, they're your brothers in Christ. Your BROTHERS and SISTERS, not strangers any more! At least, that's what I've been told.) touching you and approaching you and acting like nothing comes between you.

There's no perfect security, anywhere, and no perfect situational awareness. We do the best we can as we try to live life as smoothly as possible. That means tailoring reactions to the situation as appropriate. What's acceptable on the street is slightly different from what's acceptable inside a store or restaurant. What happens inside a store or restaurant is slightly different from what's the right way to handle someone in your office or place of work. Work environment social protocols are different from church behavior, or how you might handle someone at the door of your home, or in your yard, or out in the woods, etc.

Most of us instantly and instinctively assess folks and their intentions with a lot of contextual input, and 9,999 times out of 10,000 or better, our assessments are right on. So relax, a little. Do your best to notice people coming from a ways off, but don't allow their approach to make you uncomfortable, or to induce you to treat them in an ungentlemanly manner.

As a last thought on this, having a gun is a great thing (of course) but getting some training in practical martial arts/combatives might really help you ease up a bit. Once you're comfortable with open-hand skills that would let you react to a REAL developing threat should one present itself, you might find that your "bubble" can shrink down a bit and not be quite so fragile.

Good luck!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Maybe it's me but I don't know a single person who would consider the behavior I described as "normal". In fact the social norm that we are taught from childhood is to beware of strangers.

I really don't want to make this about open carry but those are the best examples I can come up with.

I'm not talking about someone who sees you Broncos T shirt and makes a comment about Peyton choking (there was a bunch of that around here after the Super bowl) I'm talking about some Yo Yo that actually comes running right up to you in the Wal Mart and tries to get in your business.

Maybe it isn't a criminal interview but you don't know that at first that's why you start scoping them out.

When I was 7 or 8 years old a lady tried to kidnap me right out of a grocery store. She was actually able to talk my mother into letting me carry her groceries to her car (different time, different place I know) do you think her criminal interview looked like a criminal interview? we had no idea until she tried to get me into her car on the other side of the parking lot from my mother.

Maybe it's my experiences but when people I don't know start paying to much attention to me and start crossing social boundaries it sets off the alarms in my head.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Maybe it's my experiences but when people I don't know start paying to much attention to me and start crossing social boundaries it sets off the alarms in my head.


You would be a fool not to act this way.

Not knowing the norms is one of the ways that foreigners are victimized in new places. Think "Taxi Driver outside the airport terminal offering to be friendly at the curb in Tegucigalpa, Hondiras" for example. Friendly & Helpful? Or hustling you to your kidnapping? Knowing the norms is how you detect deviation from those norms. If you don't "get it" you are extremely vulnerable. At home, you can be unaware of norms if yo8 simly don't pay attention, or think that everyone you meet is your friend, or have anyu of a number of problems that cause you not to be able to discriminate social behaviours (think diseases in the autism spectrum).


Willie

.

 

[HankR]

when people I don't know start paying to much attention to me and start crossing social boundaries it sets off the alarms in my head.

I agree with this, but your initial example is somebody in church shaking your hand? Or asking about your shoes? I live is a small town where nobody locks their doors (except me). If some stranger ran across the grocery store to shake my hands I would be concerned. In church if some new or unknown guy saw me standing all alone a handshake and a "God bless you" wouldn't be totally out of line.

 

[The Narrator]

Regionalisms rage, and color interpretations of objectively indistinguishable events.

In the US, you only talk with people you have reason to (school, work, neighbors, cashiers, waiters). Breaking that rule is suspicious.

In the US, everyone follows a 10 foot/10 second rule. If they are within 10 feet of you for more than 10 seconds and DON'T say something to you, that is suspicious.

Both are true for the US, but only one or the other is true for any specific spot in the US.

I've lived where you could sit on a park bench and be totally ignored by anyone except crazies and criminals. I've lived where if you sat down at the same bench you could watch the tension build around you until someone finally said SOMETHING to you, just to keep themselves from popping. They may have been crazy, but they were the standard for the region.

Beyond that, passion incites conversation. I used to drive a rare old car (not a valuable car, just rare and old). I don't think I ever made it more than 250 miles without someone pulling up behind me to say, "Hey, that really is a ____ _______! I had one of those back in 1974! ..." or something similar. I had people offer to buy it, people offer to sell me another, people who just wanted to reminisce. I finally sold it in part because I was a bit freaked out about strangers following me around. One summer a friend lent me a BMW GS motorcycle and I had the same thing, with someone coming up to me every few hundred miles to say something about that bike or where they imagined I had ridden it, or where they had ridden theirs. Some were very cool. One guy showed me pictures on his phone of him up above the Arctic Circle in Alaska on his GS. Of course this has some bearing on open carry. If people are passionate about open carry, open carrying will cause people to interact with you socially. If that makes you uncomfortable, open carry is probably not your best typo carry.

 

[Kleanbore]

What is the question?

 

[Tirod]

Passion is the key issue when somebody invades your space. The collector car variant is extremely common, and if you own an exotic car then don't expect any appreciation of your privacy.

There are some people in society so enamored of physical objects they insist on starting a conversation about them like "Hey, buddy, we are so cool and members of the Club!" It goes way beyond OC - watches, pocket knives, cars, cell phones, Bluetooth pieces, shoes, jackets, etc.

Women can do that, and some do it all the time. It's taken well, at least from my outside observation. Men - Not So Much. Admiring another man's possession was, in the environment I was raised in, done without comment or any verbal acknowledgement at all. Once the possessor was out of earshot, then the conversation would start, and the guy who knew most about it was the alpha of the moment.

"Hey, what was that he had? Cool car/gun/watch/knife/whatever!" "Yeah, it's a Elite Branded Social Signifier, with optional Status Increaser to make you look insignificant."

Some of us in close proximity to the public see this multiple times an hour. Work retail and you very quickly get tired of it all day long. Hit the kit car forums and read the threads titled "Is it real?", you very quickly get an idea there are now a large number of disadvantaged males with low self esteem who are idolizing certain product genres as status enhancers for their own male embellishment.

Goes to all those guys carrying $1,100 1911's, driving 3/4 diesel commuter trucks, or wearing extremely large belt buckles.

Outfit yourself in any sort of flashy or upscale hardware and you will get someone rushing up now to gush all about how great it is. If being the Grey Man in society was your goal, instant fail. For those who are extremely sensitive about people getting in your "space" due to previous stress under difficult dircimstances, one reaction is to cut off contact with large crowds of people you formerly knew well. They can't get in your space, and that only leaves the random stranger who violates it. Like, when I'm shopping in HD and an older divorced woman considers me a knowledgeable handy man.

These days I take my wife as much as possible.

 

[ambidextrous1]

"(think diseases in the autism spectrum)."

Can someone explain to me what that means? My apologies for being poorly equipped to participate in this dialogue.

 

[Sol]

I'm starting to question how some people have jobs, friends, wives/husbands, go to stores, restaurants, bars, church, public places.

People are people, their intent is completely uknown no matter who they are and what setting they are in. It doesn't matter if they are a random person on the street, or an employee of a business.

That group of guys wearing colors and sporting tattoos could be a volunteer group and that sweet looking girl could be a killer.

It's great to be aware, but being in constant stress isn't healthy. There are way too many variables to calculate.

While violent crime does happen, it's the exception and not the rule. If you stood in a busy part of town and interacted with 10,000 people in a day, the odds are still in your favor that nothing horrific would come to you.

I don't do coopers color codes, I don't need to think about my state of duress. I'm aware of my surroundings and the people who grace my presence. I have my own system:

Stay: maintain social interactions.
Fight: self explanatory
Flight: self explanatory

Our big brains, 5 senses and eons of ingrained animalistic instincts should do quite a good job at alerting us of danger, You'll know when your in it.

If I went condition orange everytime some random person approached me, I would be at wits end and fried out.

*the autism remark is trying to explain how some people can't interpret or are aware of social cues....I think.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Maybe it's me but I don't know a single person who would consider the behavior I described as "normal". In fact the social norm that we are taught from childhood is to beware of strangers.

Again, I think you're assuming too much.

'We' are not taught to beware of strangers. Personally, I was taught to be alert to certain cues that a stranger might have less than beneficent intentions, and not indulge those cues. I was taught not to beware of strangers, but to beware of certain behaviors.

For example, if a complete stranger approaches and says "I really like your shirt. My brother had one just like it. Seeing it reminds me of him. I wish he were still with us." -that would garner a response something akin to "Thank you. I love this shirt, too. I'm sorry for your loss." If practical, I might even be tempted to offer the stranger the shirt.

Conversely- "I really like your shirt. Say, can I ask you a question? I'm trying to get to Philadelphia and…" is likely to put my guard up.

In the first example, the stranger is offering a compliment and sharing of himself. All he's asking for is compassion and a recognition of a common human bond that is normative of people's anxieties about mortality. Indulging it costs one nothing and may actually benefit one socially.

In the second example, the compliment is being used to establish a transactional relationship- I compliment you, now you owe me something in return. By opening with a compliment, the predator is attempting to form a bond with you, similar to the first example, but is at the same time playing on the normative social debt of that compliment to get you to humor the actual reason for his contact with you, which is unrelated to the initial compliment.

Of course, in grift there's the short con and the long con. The grieving stranger may actually want to form a bond with you over weeks and then take something from you you don't wish to give. There's even a remote chance your wife of 20 years is running the same scam.

But back to the 'bubble' metaphor. It's not a good metaphor for at least three reasons.

1: 'Bubble' is already commonly in use as a metaphor that means nearly the opposite of the way it's being used here. To 'live in a bubble' in most people's experience is to live in an attitude of ideological closure- that one cannot conceive of things that one does not already believe.

2: In my opinion the appropriate size of one's 'bubble' is out to the ends of of one's perception, which makes the metaphor banal.

3: If the bubble is smaller than the ends of perception and is predicated on physical space, rather than behavior, there's a decent chance one will miss a threat that is outside the arbitrarily defined envelope of one's bubble. And that could get you killed.

But, really, as Sam1911 asked at the beginning of his excellent post above- "What is the question here?"

Is this just another session of reifying clichées and received wisdom, or are we actually talking about something?

 

[skoro]

My own personal, untested, but effective (for over 60 years) method for SA:

1. keep my head on a swivel - check 6 occasionally
2. don't be jumpy
3. keep the damn cell phone in the pocket, unless it's ringing (which it rarely is)

Works for me. But I'm a low risk type of guy.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

What is the question?

But, really, as Sam1911 asked at the beginning of his excellent post above- "What is the question here?"

Not to be persnickety here, but why must there be a 'question'? Can't we have a discussion on situational awareness and how people react to someone crossing into their personal buffer zone (or 'bubble') that stems from the OP's personal beliefs and experiences? Seems like there's been a nice discussion with good information without a 'question' being asked.

My own personal view is that a part of having good situational awareness is the ability to distinguish the level of threat between, say, a person casually approaching in a social type setting and a random stranger aggressively (fast approaching) for no apparent reason. Both may cause you to be more on guard, but certainly not in the same way.

 

[besafe2]

My own personal, untested, but effective (for over 60 years) method for SA:

1. keep my head on a swivel - check 6 occasionally
2. don't be jumpy
3. keep the damn cell phone in the pocket, unless it's ringing (which it rarely is)

Works for me. But I'm a low risk type of guy.

This works for me also.