Up Close and Personal

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TheProf

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Consider this self-defense scenario...

1. You are already in grappling mode... (Yes, we all know that more situational awareness may have prevented this but...)

2. He has already drawn his knife...making this a deadly situation...

Which handgun system (revolver vs. auto), make and model, caliber, and carry position would YOU prefer? And why?

We all know that it depends on "personal preference"... So let's hear YOUR reasoning for why YOUR choice works for YOU.


The reason I ask is this...while I consider my G27 the ideal carry gun, I often wonder that in a close quarter grappling situation, would I be better served by my humble j-frame (which offers me better gripping quality and no reciprocating slide to worry about)?
 
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This may be just me, But without formal training i don't think it matters what gun you are carrying as long as its one your familiar with.
I do think anything without a safety would be best and possibly the long heavy pull of a DAO gun.
I would think holster type and placement would be just as important as the gun. Or the ability to have a bug you could have the extra option to reach.

I carry a full sized 1911 most times and have an open top holster and a thumb break one also. But i could imagine trying to get the thumb break open and then drawing the gun all the time trying to swipe the safety would be a challenge in a full on tussle.
But a Kahr PM9 in my back pocket with an open top holster may be my best bet considering the situation.

I think real training would be much better than going over it in your head playing "What if?" and that goes for me also. As i know id never get my 1911 out effectively during a full on tussle.
 
I think your instinct to gravitate toward the j-frame in a 'ground fight' is probably right. My duty gun is a 1911; but my pocket carried backup (and basically all-the-time off duty gun) is a Centennial j-frame. When the chips are down it will be as forgiving as any gun can be of my lack of fine motor skills, the possibility of a sub-optimal grip, getting bumped and grabbed at, etc. And if there's a malfunction, it's got the right 'clearance' drill: repeat trigger pull.

I think the revolver's suitability to CQB is the reason for the development of the classic 'sub-genre' of the 'belly gun' or 'Fitz special'. A quick google turns up this article by Jim Wilson making some of these same points:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmoke/0605/
 
When I took 0-5Ft Gunfighting with Suarez International, that is almost exactly one of the scenarios we did.

I was on my back, with a BG on top with a training knife. I had both hands on his wrists trying to keep from being stabbed and didn't have time to even consider going for my weapon for what seemed like several minutes.

I was carrying a GBB AirSoft in the Appendix-IWB postion and finally managed to roll him enough to do a cavalry-style draw with my left hand and shoot him in the side. Pocket carry or 4:00 I would have never been able to access my gun.

If I had a folder clipped to my left pocket (which I carry all the time now), or a fixed blade, I could have gotten to it sooner and stabbed him repeatedly in the side while still maintaining a bit of control over the knife hand.

This class was very thought provoking. I now carry blades that I can access with either hand. I still carry my Glock 19 AIWB, but practice weak-hand drawing more often and from various positions.

I will never pocket carry as there are just too many liabilities if I have to try to draw it in any kind of reactive fight. It may work well in a proactive fight IF you have plenty of advance notice, but it's just not for me.

I just don't know what my fight, if/when it comes, will be.

If you can, I highly recommend the 0-5Ft class or the AMOK In-Fight Accessing class. At the very least, this is a good DVD:

http://www.amokcombatives.com/linkedpages/pistolcombat.html
 
I second the edged weapon idea personally I carry a assist open folder in back back right pocket clipped next to my wallet and another usually in left front pocket
 
At this point, I don't think that it matters what kind of firearm you have. All you should be concerned about is creating enough space between you and the attacker for you to draw. Create space.
 
All you should be concerned about is creating enough space between you and the attacker for you to draw. Create space.
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That was a major portion of the material covered in the two courses I mentioned.


Actually, this thread would have probably been better in the Strategies and Tactics forum.
 
This illustrates why retention training is important. Both not losing the gun, and firing from a retention position. Yes, I carry a blade, and yes I will pull it if I have to, but I don't see myself ever using the knife if I can still get to a gun. I also carry a 1911, and yes, you must take care not to push it into the bad guy hard enough to push it out of battery. You need to train retention and muzzle strikes.
 
I know one state trooper who had this problem with his primary duty weapon, though it was not a 1911:

yes, you must take care not to push it into the bad guy hard enough to push it out of battery
Click to expand...

After repeated failures to make his gun go bang in the midst of a hand-to-hand fight (he believes in retrospect he was pushing it out of battery against the BG's body), and unable to figure it out in the heat of the fight, he pulled his backup--a j-frame--and ended the fight.

The broader question of issues surrounding gun use in CQB is worth talking about, but I think the OP has asked a significant question: i.e., whether a revolver actually has advantages over a semi. For me the answer is yes. I can shoot a semi better and faster at any realistic defensive handgun range beyond arm's reach--despite the fact that I actually prefer shooting revolvers, have competed with revolvers, and have shot them considerably more overall than all semi's combined. Semi's are simply easier to shoot accurately and quickly in almost all situations. But in a gunfight that's also a wrasslin' match? Give me a double action revolver every time. Operational simplicity and practical reliability are what's needed for a bad-breath fight.
 
First, accessing a firearm per the scenario described might not be the best option. But if that is the option you decide on, you must:

(Note: 1 and 2 are interchangeable.)

1. Gain position to access and use your pistol
2. Control the opposing limb nearest your pistol
3. Draw and use it

It isn't as easy as it sounds.

Best - E
 
This one has actually been on my mind a bit recently, and I'm a bit torn on the subject. Although I am more fond of revolvers, I find myself carrying autos more often.

My main EDC is a Walther PPS (and sometimes a SP101, but not too often anymore), and my woods gun is a Glock 20. I got to thinking about this issue while pondering animal attacks. The auto has the potential to put one in a pretty bad spot if you had some sort of wild beast on you (or human). I'm really thinking of changing my woods gun to something of the wheelgun persuasion for a few reasons, and the topic of this thread is one of them.

Still yet, my thinking on EDC guns is to carry what you're most comfortable with. For me, that's my PPS. Each has it's drawbacks, and I've learned that when it comes to purchasing any gun, everything is a compromise in one way or the other.
 
Disadvantages to both. Out of battery is a real problem. But a grip on the cylinders of a revolver will disable a revolver as well if it is not already cocked. Getting something in between the hammer and a round like a thumb will keep it from firing.
 
I'd say go with the revolver. You can shoot it from under clotching or from in a pocket if you have to. Also, if you're that close and you press the muzzle against your assailant, you could push the slide back enough to put the gun out of battery and have it not fire. Won't happen with a revolver.
 
If you are in grappling mode and he has a knife out then what you are carrying and where is the least of your problems. First thing is to run. Get space to where you can draw. If unable to run then go for his knife and try to take it away like you would a gun. Get the advantage then draw and fire. Top of the holster firing point blank would probably be best.
 
At that distance I would prefer an edged weapon. I carry a Glock 26 strong side and a Ka-Bar TDI serated on my belt weak side. The knife would be easier to control as well as cause defensive wounds to the attacker should he try to grab it. I would go for the gun as soon as I can break grappling distance and fire 3-5 quick shots COM so that I may get away or at least get to my feet.
 
can't imagine going for a gun. I'd be doing everything I could to control that blade and the aggressor.

To answer the question, I carry a revolver and most days I carry it crossdraw. So, I'd likely engage the knife hand at the wrist and draw with whatever hand I had open.
I would, however, have a problem not controlling the blade as much as possible and going for the gun. Perhaps this is a tactical error on my part. My training in AiKiDo gives me a fairly broad base of techniques against blade weilders, so I wouldn't think going for the gun was always the best tactic.
Maybe I'm wrong.
 
I've taken some flack on this site in times past for advocating a blade at contact distances (grappling, elevator). Interesting for me, then, that folks here who have trained this scenario seem to gravitate towards at least a back up edge. That's what ultimately did it for me: two days with MA expert Erik Remmen getting thumped around on a mat made me a believer in edged weapons; the faster the access, the better.

But the OP asked about guns, so I'd vote centennial, fwiw. Of course, the little j-frame is at a bit of a disadvantage in other areas (relative to a larger service weapon), so an auto, some situational awareness, and a blade or two makes more sense to me in general.

I'm no expert though; hope I never have to find out if I'm correct or not...
 
Run away as fast as you can to a defensive position.

What's to be lost by it?? What's to be gained!!! Perforation of a BG knife-wielder is easier from "21" feet, don'cha think? Be the "coward" and LIVE!
 
Run away as fast as you can to a defensive position.
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That may work if possible.

Since 'grappling' was mentioned in the OP, often you won't be on your feet long enough to run away to a defensive position.

I hate ground fighting as much as anybody, but it is a reality that needs to be trained for.
 
I've taken some flack on this site in times past for advocating a blade at contact distances (grappling, elevator). Interesting for me, then, that folks here who have trained this scenario seem to gravitate towards at least a back up edge. That's what ultimately did it for me: two days with MA expert Erik Remmen getting thumped around on a mat made me a believer in edged weapons; the faster the access, the better.
Click to expand...

A knife is the real answer here. Failing that, a small revolver. Like the NAA mini-revolvers.
 
I carry my pistol on my belt at around the 2:30 position on my right side (me being right handed).

This is the gun and holster that I usually carry, but sometimes I carry my Glock 23 instead (same holster).

HPIM6489.gif


Unless my arms are pinned behind me, I would hopefully be able to get to my pistol and draw while kicking with my left leg and blocking with my left arm as best as I could.

I like the simple Glock holster because it completely covers the trigger but still lets me get a good grip to draw with.
And while it holds the pistol in the holster rather well (very snug) it is still easy enough to draw from.


As for a revolver....

I think that even if the criminal doesn't know anything about guns he would most likely try to take the gun away from you, and he would most likely try to grab the gun.

And if he successfully grabs an autoloader, there's a very good chance that it would not be pushed out of battery.
And even if it was pushed out of battery you could just move your arm backward a bit to put it back in battery.

But if he successfully grabs the revolver, most likely he will seize it by the top and wrap his hand around the cylinder.
It's just the easiest and most natural way to grab a revolver that someone else is holding by the handle.
And once he has the revolver in this manner you're not going to be able to fire until you break his grip on the gun.
 
Agreed for the most part, but you will eventually have to do something...
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Yeah, I'm not advocating doing nothing with that. I'm saying that if you focus on controlling the blade, then you can employ the philosophy that it's not "his blade." Rather, it's "a" blade that you can employ, or whatever you like (disarm, whatever).

Going for the gun takes 1 of your arms out of the fight in a very critical moment (or series of moments).

Again, I could be wrong, but that's why we talk S/T here.

It seems like a bad idea to not control the blade hand unless you can draw like Wyatt Earp or grapple like a UFC Pro. Most of we readers here are regular people who go to work every day and lead regular lives.

Adding the variance of genetics and age differential to the what ifs clouds things more, so I won't do that.

My response with a blade is always to get control of it, or at least try to before I do anything else, if I'm in a grappling situation.
I can and will run if given the opportunity. :)
 
I'm a lucky, due to the fact I'm ambidextrous. I practice with both hands, shooting and loading. I shoot my autos mainly right handed but Ive trained to shoot my revolvers left handed and even become faster and more accurate Left handed than right handed. Here's why...

My natural reaction when startled is to use my right arm to block/defend myself. 95% of the time my carry pistol is a S&W airweight .38 in my left front pocket or a model 60 IWB on my left side. I also carry my knife in my right side front pocket. I figure this a good setup for me, allowing my left hand access to the pistol while blocking with my right, yet my knife is ready to use if needed by my right arm. As a bonus I can get to my pistol while seated in my truck without having to change the carry position of the pistol every time I get in and out of a vehicle.

I prefer an revolver for CCW but I do carry a Colt Mustang or a Colt compact from time to time. I like the higher capacity and faster reload of the auto's , but i like having the ability to shoot multiple shots out of a pocket.
 
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