Up Close and Personal

[chieftain]

Actually if already grappling I would go with my own knife, and hand to hand capabilities.

But to answer the OP. Any quality Hammerless revolver will be much more reliable at contact distances than any semi auto pistol.

1. Doesn't get pushed out of battery

2. "blow back" from shooting someone at contact range will not jam a revolver, many semi auto's will jam from the bad guys biological "stuffing" getting blown in to the action.

3. The bad guy can't mechanically stop the hammerless revolver from firing i.e. blocking the hammer, grabbing the slide, pushing a pistol's slide out of battery.

For me that means my BUG, S&W 642. Another capability that only a hammerless revolver can give you.

Good luck.

Fred

 

[smince]

The bad guy can't mechanically stop the hammerless revolver from firing i.e. blocking the hammer, grabbing the slide, pushing a pistol's slide out of battery.

It was earlier pointed out that grabbing the cylinder will stop a revolver, though. The revoler is neither better or worse in ground fighting, as it has it's own set of liabilities.

On contact shots, during the 0-5Ft live fire block, Gabe had us put our thumb behind the slide and fire a few rounds to block the slide in battery.

No broken digits or anything

We also held our own slides while shooting at a target to get used feeling what it would be like on the other side of the coin if we had to grab a BG's gun and he fired.

FWIW, you can still get off one shot with the slide being grabbed by the BG (unless you are foolish enough to cary chamber empty).

I don't think this can be said often or loud enough: going to the ground in an actual street fight is deadly serious business.

 

[HadEmAll]

The one time this scenario actually happened to me, it was going to be a M&P .40 right in the AH's gut. Remington 155 grain JHP. Fortunately his sense got the better of him just in time.

It's just what I was carrying at the time.

If I chose my carry based on just this scenario, it would be a revolver for sure.

But there are many more likely scenarios in my life, so I'm not changing anything based on this one.

 

[Pronghorn]

my vote would go toward a revolver. If the slide does not have enough area to cycle, you WILL NOT be able to take a second shot. A revolver will cycle even though cloths or hands get in the way of any working parts.

 

[joe_security]

That Gabe sounds like one heck of a great instructor !

 

[uspJ]

A revolver will cycle even though cloths or hands get in the way of any working parts.

A revolver can be kept from firing by grabbing the cylinder while the trigger is being pulled in da and the web of the hand can be put between the hammer and the frame if it has an exposed hammer.

 

[chieftain]

A revolver can be kept from firing by grabbing the cylinder while the trigger is being pulled in da and the web of the hand can be put between the hammer and the frame if it has an exposed hammer.

.

Use force on force. Then get back to us after you have relearned why we didn't use that technique back when we regularly used revolvers.

It didn't work 45 years ago, it doesn't work today. There was a reason that hammer interference was the only successful method taught, instructed on, and trained for. Experience.

I specifically specified a hammerless revolver.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[easyg]

It didn't work 45 years ago, it doesn't work today. There was a reason that hammer interference was the only successful method taught, instructed on, and trained for. Experience.

You're wrong.
Grabbing the cylinder will prevent a revolver from firing, unless the hammer is already cocked.
I know this from first hand experience.

.

...,many semi auto's will jam from the bad guys biological "stuffing" getting blown in to the action.

I have to call BS on this one.
No way, no how.

 

[uspJ]

chieftain

I'm unaware of any revolver sa, sa/da or dao where the cylinder moving to fire the next shot does not corespond directly with the hammer being moved to the rear position. Either manually moving it back in SA or using the trigger mechanism to move it back on a sa/da or dao revolver.

Use force on force. Then get back to us after you have relearned why we didn't use that technique back when we regularly used revolvers.

The limited experience I've had in fof/weapon retention coresponded to my previous post about holding the cylinder. If you CAN get a grip around the cylinder it will not work.

Also since you brought up fof I completely forgot to mention another method of stopping a da/dao weapon revolver or pistol, If you can get both hands on the weapon while the person who has the gun has only one hand on it you can stick a finger behind the trigger to keep it from moving back and yes you will get the daylights piched out of your finger when they try to pull the trigger. Of course this doesn't work on 1911 style triggers.

I specifically specified a hammerless revolver.

Go figure.

Yes you did, that is why I did not quote your post earlier and I made note that you can't perform the hammer block on a revolver with a shrouded hammer.


easyg said

You're wrong.
Grabbing the cylinder will prevent a revolver from firing, unless the hammer is already cocked.
I know this from first hand experience.

smice said

It was earlier pointed out that grabbing the cylinder will stop a revolver, though. The revoler is neither better or worse in ground fighting, as it has it's own set of liabilities.

I guess others experiences don't count.

 

[Deanimator]

Any firearm I carry is of equal utility in the stated situation. No firearm I use requires any greater effort to put into action than any other, be it revolver, Glock or M1911.

 

[therewolf]

I'm no CQB instructor, I'm just a big burly guy who, in his four years on a Navy destroyer,and in some of the years since, took as well as gave out some beatings. Fortunately, I was fast enough(back then) to handle knife threats.

I'd try to keep the presence of mind to use all local assets. Lots of time you're trying to get into your car in order to leave a dangerous area. Can you open the car door and place yourself between yourself and the BG? Speaking of Sharpies, do you have a pen or pencil in your pocket to stab the guy in the eye, ear, or throat? Is there a bottle or club on the ground, are you holding a cup of steaming coffee? Flashlights(even small ones) work wonders. Even a piece of broken trim molding can make for a serious stabbing implement.

IME, Grab the bad guy's arm with both hands and try to break, snap, or crush the wrist. I would bring the guys knife arm over my shoulder and step in under his armpit,turning away from him in the direction of his arm. This does two things, it separates the rest of his body leverage from his knife arm, and my back would be receiving his rabbit punches, and he generally had two choices as I stood up and pulled his knife arm downward: Drop the knife, or suffer a dislocated shoulder. Once the knife was no longer a threat, if it was possible to grab either lower leg yank it quickly up between my legs and fall back on him with my full weight, he'd suffer the damage, while cushioning my fall. Not glamorous, not a shoot, but you may live. Or scramble up fast enough to give you your needed draw space. Once he's dropped the knife, locating it and picking it back up, while avoiding a kick takes as much time as drawing a gun. Bear in mind I'm not a combat instructor, just a dirty fighter. I'm getting older,slower, and meaner.


I'm a target shooter, and a big guy, so I'm carrying a full 1911A1 or CZ-75 or whatever I was at the range with most recently. Not a fast draw, so if I needed the gun, I would definitely have to fight for space.

 

[scaatylobo]

A semi auto can be forced out of battery [ slide is pushed back 1/4" and will NOT fire ] so a contact shot could be impossible.

That is the reason a snub = in that particular moment might be the best choice =- assuming you can actually draw and fire while grappling.

 

[chieftain]

Probably dancing on the head of a pin, but one reason I switched from a 1911 to a Victory model S&W in Vietnam was this issue. The 1911 had functioned, as designed when jammed against an NVA soldier. (this is the issue with semi auto's, being pressed/pushed out of battery) I won that fight, but not because of the pistol. I had immediately dropped the pistol when it failed to fire and transitioned to my K-bar.

I remember winning that fight not from any skill of mine, but mainly because I out weighed him by 40-50 lbs and was on top, and able to restrict his arm movement, and desperately wanted to live. I don't remember today who's it was, but one of our rifles, his AK47 or my M14, was between our bodies while we "grappled".

I did not begin to carry a semi auto as primary until the Sheriff's dept I worked for went SIG in the early 90's. Got my first SIG 226 and settled on the 228.

Although I now carry a bottom feeder as primary, I also carry a hammerless S&W 642 with a CT laser, as my BUG in my left front pocket. Old memories die hard.

Go figure.

Fred

PS: Interesting side note to the above fight: I had a S&W model 38 "J" frame bodyguard in my trousers cargo pocket. I didn't think of it in or during the above fight. When the 1911 failed I went to the knife. I don't know whether I would have gotten to the "J" frame in time in this situation any how. It is something I still dwell on from time to time, even though the clarity of the fight is getting foggy.

F

 

[scaatylobo]

CHIEFTAIN = glad you won and sorry that you learned that 'lesson' the hard way.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE ,welcome back brother !!.