Up to 4m guns in UK and police are losing the battle

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http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article310182.ece

Up to 4m guns in UK and police are losing the battle
'IoS' investigation: Another week, another horrific shooting. The culture of

illegal firearms is running out of control

By Sophie Goodchild and Paul Lashmar
Published: 04 September 2005

British criminals could have access to as many as four million illegal firearms, criminal intelligence experts warn.

The criminal possession and use of firearms, a hallmark of urban America, is now a significant threat in Britain, too, says the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS), despite moves to increase penalties for gun crime.

Senior police officers admit that more needs to be done in tracking the source of illegal guns flooding Britain in a bid to curb gun-related violence.

Zainab Kalokoh, 33, was shot in the head as she cradled a baby at a christening last Saturday in Peckham, south London.

Two teenagers have been charged with the crime.

Commander Cressida Dick, who is in charge of the Met's Operation Trident unit, which tackles gun crime in the black community, said that genuine firearms were still expensive to obtain but that there was real concern over the availability of converted weapons.

"People are very concerned about the level of firearms availability and firearms offences," Commander Dick told The Independent on Sunday. "I don't think we do know enough about supply, either in terms of the sources or the volume. We need to know moreto suppress it."

Some of the guns brought into the UK are weapons beloved of gun fanatics: machine pistols such as Uzis, and semi-automatics including the ubiquitous AK-47.

But in recent years Customs officers have seen an increase in the number of weapons smuggled in from Central and Eastern Europe. These include dozens of east European Uzi-style pistols.

Hand grenades and Semtex, too, have been intercepted. Customs seized nearly 300 handguns, rifles and shotguns being brought in illegally last year.

Two men were jailed for life three weeks ago for using an AK-47 to kill David King, a drug dealer from Hoddesdon, Herfordshire, in 2003 - the first time that an automatic weapon had been used during a crime in the UK. The gun, from Hungary, was sold by the state to a Belgian arms dealer, and ended up in Britain. It fired 26 bullets in three seconds.

Seizures of such advanced weapons are still quite rare. Most gun crime in Britain involves handguns, usually converted blank-firing guns and, to a lesser extent, shotguns.

After many years of campaigning by the gun control lobby, a ban finally came into force in May 2004, making it illegal to own a blank-firing replica gun without a firearms licence. Before the ban, NCIS had repeatedly warned that more than half the illegally converted guns seized in Britain by police officers were Brococks, legal until the ban. The Brocock replica handgun has a feature very useful to criminals: the gas-fired pistol can be converted into a real gun by any dodgy backstreet gunsmith.

UK gun crime might not rival that of the US, but the problem is frightening and growing. There were more than 10,000 offences in England and Wales involving the use of firearms in 2003-04. Weapons such as Brococks were used in 2,150 offences, an increase of 18 per cent on the previous year.

Also on the rise is the number of victims shot: 440 people were seriously wounded by firearm in 2003-04, up five per cent on the previous year.

Even when handguns were banned, only around 3,000 of the 100,000 believed to have been in private hands before May 2004 have been handed in for destruction. The other 97,000 have disappeared.

David Raynes a former senior Customs investigator, believes there is now an ample underground supply of guns. "Guns can be had for £100 or so," he said. "I suspect the market is saturated in both Britain and Ireland. The real UK arms smuggling issue now is probably military explosives and detonators, to be used in future acts of terrorism."

DEADLY DEALER

Mark Sharpe, a 41-year-old criminal from Birchington, Kent is serving 10 years in jail after pleading guilty to four counts of importing firearms, silencers, ammunition and cocaine.

UK Customs officers at Coquelles in France stopped his car in February this year as he tried to re-enter Britain, and a search revealed four handguns concealed in boxes of Stella Artois lager. They were almost certainly destined for UK drug gangs. Sharpe was also carrying a loaded handgun and 750g of cocaine concealed in the insoles of his shoes.

Sharpe received a seven-year sentence for the firearms offences and three years for the drugs charges, the sentences to run consecutively.

British criminals could have access to as many as four million illegal firearms, criminal intelligence experts warn.

The criminal possession and use of firearms, a hallmark of urban America, is now a significant threat in Britain, too, says the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS), despite moves to increase penalties for gun crime.

Senior police officers admit that more needs to be done in tracking the source of illegal guns flooding Britain in a bid to curb gun-related violence.

Zainab Kalokoh, 33, was shot in the head as she cradled a baby at a christening last Saturday in Peckham, south London.

Two teenagers have been charged with the crime.

Commander Cressida Dick, who is in charge of the Met's Operation Trident unit, which tackles gun crime in the black community, said that genuine firearms were still expensive to obtain but that there was real concern over the availability of converted weapons.

"People are very concerned about the level of firearms availability and firearms offences," Commander Dick told The Independent on Sunday. "I don't think we do know enough about supply, either in terms of the sources or the volume. We need to know moreto suppress it."

Some of the guns brought into the UK are weapons beloved of gun fanatics: machine pistols such as Uzis, and semi-automatics including the ubiquitous AK-47.

But in recent years Customs officers have seen an increase in the number of weapons smuggled in from Central and Eastern Europe. These include dozens of east European Uzi-style pistols.

Hand grenades and Semtex, too, have been intercepted. Customs seized nearly 300 handguns, rifles and shotguns being brought in illegally last year.

Two men were jailed for life three weeks ago for using an AK-47 to kill David King, a drug dealer from Hoddesdon, Herfordshire, in 2003 - the first time that an automatic weapon had been used during a crime in the UK. The gun, from Hungary, was sold by the state to a Belgian arms dealer, and ended up in Britain. It fired 26 bullets in three seconds.

Seizures of such advanced weapons are still quite rare. Most gun crime in Britain involves handguns, usually converted blank-firing guns and, to a lesser extent, shotguns.
After many years of campaigning by the gun control lobby, a ban finally came into force in May 2004, making it illegal to own a blank-firing replica gun without a firearms licence. Before the ban, NCIS had repeatedly warned that more than half the illegally converted guns seized in Britain by police officers were Brococks, legal until the ban. The Brocock replica handgun has a feature very useful to criminals: the gas-fired pistol can be converted into a real gun by any dodgy backstreet gunsmith.

UK gun crime might not rival that of the US, but the problem is frightening and growing. There were more than 10,000 offences in England and Wales involving the use of firearms in 2003-04. Weapons such as Brococks were used in 2,150 offences, an increase of 18 per cent on the previous year.

Also on the rise is the number of victims shot: 440 people were seriously wounded by firearm in 2003-04, up five per cent on the previous year.

Even when handguns were banned, only around 3,000 of the 100,000 believed to have been in private hands before May 2004 have been handed in for destruction. The other 97,000 have disappeared.

David Raynes a former senior Customs investigator, believes there is now an ample underground supply of guns. "Guns can be had for £100 or so," he said. "I suspect the market is saturated in both Britain and Ireland. The real UK arms smuggling issue now is probably military explosives and detonators, to be used in future acts of terrorism."

DEADLY DEALER

Mark Sharpe, a 41-year-old criminal from Birchington, Kent is serving 10 years in jail after pleading guilty to four counts of importing firearms, silencers, ammunition and cocaine.

UK Customs officers at Coquelles in France stopped his car in February this year as he tried to re-enter Britain, and a search revealed four handguns concealed in boxes of Stella Artois lager. They were almost certainly destined for UK drug gangs. Sharpe was also carrying a loaded handgun and 750g of cocaine concealed in the insoles of his shoes.

Sharpe received a seven-year sentence for the firearms offences and three years for the drugs charges, the sentences to run consecutively.
 
yeah, urban gun violence... a concept brought to you by the US :rolleyes:

I didnt know an AK was considered such advanced weaponry technology being like 50 years old in design...
 
I must say I've lost nearly all my sympathy with the current population of the UK. The more I encounter them on line and talk to them, the more I'm convinced WWI and WWII really did kill all the good people over there. What's left now is barely British. What passes for courage is really a sheep-like faith in government combined with cynical resignation.

I'm absolutely rooting for the criminals, and hope they flood the nation with illegal AK's. British criminals seem to be the last ones who qualify as "British." They're tough, creative and unswayed by absurd laws.
 
Imagine that...banning guns doesn't have the effect of making them all just vanish, nor does it seem to deter criminals from a) procuring them or b) using them in violent crime.

I never would've thought. :rolleyes:
 
Cosmoline - No kidding! I think you're about right, strange though it may sound to the uninitiated ear. The UK criminals and the young "hooligans"
are what remains of the tough, resiliant and creative people the brits once were.

As a small anecdote, I offer this experience from my visit to the UK.

I was in Portsmouth, England earlier this year, and in many ways it was
kind of eerie. For example, I was at a street corner, amongst a crowd of people waiting for the little man to turn green so they can cross the street.
There were no cars coming, but these people just stood there, waiting for
the streetlight to tell them they could cross. I thought that was just way
too creepy, so my friends and I looked both ways, just to make sure, and
then dashed across the street. No problem, right? We do that all the time
here in the US. Well, you should have seen the outright looks of horror on
some of the locals faces, and they way they began to glance around nervously, as if they expected the secret police to suddenly descend upon us or something. Just weird; totally, mindbendingly...weird to be among people who are *that* conditioned to accepting arbitrary and senseless authority.

In many ways, it was a very sad and depressing place to be, in a land where no one cares about freedom or rights, but everyone has a nice cell phone and hangs out at all the happening clubs. I fear this will happen to America in good time as well.

fu-man shoe
 
yeah, urban gun violence... a concept brought to you by the US

Look on the bright side...if that hadn't been a conservative (by British standards) paper, it would have said gun violence was an American problem, rather than an urban American problem. At least the Independant has narrowed the problem down to where the majority of the real trouble is.
 
I must say I've lost nearly all my sympathy with the current population of the UK. The more I encounter them on line and talk to them, the more I'm convinced WWI and WWII really did kill all the good people over there. What's left now is barely British. What passes for courage is really a sheep-like faith in government combined with cynical resignation.

This feeling as been noted in many of the threads discussing Britain.

In the past, those English who wanted freedom are now called Americans.

In the future we’ll see them as immigrants.

Those who remain are called Subjects.

“An English lord, traveling in the Old West needed some re-shoeing done on his horse. Riding into a small town, he spots a blacksmith.”

“Please tell your master I wish to talk with him”, the lord told the blacksmith.

The blacksmith thought about that for a second, spit, and said “That sum bitch ain’t been born yet”.


That sums up the difference between the English and us.
 
"illegal gun" ? Are you trying to tell me that criminals find a way to import, possess, and use guns banned by the law there? Now I'm very confused; I must have read HCI's website incorrectly. I'll go try again....
 
It's as old as the hills, but it's as true today as ever. "When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them." And, just as true, only the law abiding will be deprived of them. You'd think the lesson of Washington, DC has been out there long enough for others to learn it, but I guess the UK had to learn it the hard way. It's a shame that some people just cannot seem to learn from history. They are, therefore, destined to repeat it.
 
Some of you are hilarious. Talk about buying into myths and generalisations. As bad as stereotypes about gun owners.

Fu man shoe - I can't speak for the population of Portsmouth but I skipped in front of a lorry about an hour ago. I fully expect to be arrested and 'disappeared' any minute now.

You might accuse me of misdirection here, but did nobody spot the news story from Brazil recently? Let's just say that I'm not terribly surprised that it wasn't posted here. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210558.stm

Now before you leap down my throat, I don't agree with the actions the Brazilian govt has taken, and it is entirely possible that their stats have been fiddled, but not everything is totally clearcut in this world. It's a good idea to pay attention to both sides of the coin.

Don't stereotype my countrymen, you don't like it when it is done to you. You hicks.
 
Iain,
are you saying that they are wrong, or that you just don't like being lumped in with the majority of your countrymen? The reason that I ask is because in most of the news reports I have read, the majority of your countrymen seem to be in favor of increased gun control and blame "gun crime" on the prevalence of guns, not the prevalence of criminals. So if they are wrong, why don't you explain what your experience is of how things really are. Otherwise, it seems that you are blindly sticking up for your team(countrymen). I think we would be encouraged to find out that Englishmen have not not ceded their rights to self defense to their government; in abscence of such information, it appears that the light of libertyand self reliance is going out.

Kj
 
Last year 36,000 people were killed [in Brazil] by guns - a drop of 8% from 2003, according to the health ministry.

The government says the change is due to innovative disarmament measures, including a gun buy-back scheme.
Iain, how much do you want to bet that last year's death toll was elevated significantly from usual by some unusual circumstance? Also, how much do you want to bet that the gun buy backs did not significantly reduce the number of people who own functioning firearms in Brazil, thereby removing this as a possible cause of any reduction in firearms related deaths? I think you know as well as I that the people who rid themselves of their arms via gun buy backs are not criminals to start with. They are generally little old ladies and people looking to dump worthless nonfunctioning firearms in exchange for a little cash. Even the most enthusiastic advocates of gun buy back schemes are more than willing to admit that they actually do nothing to reduce the number of weapons in the hands of those who would misuse them, and do nothing to reduce unjustified deaths by firearms.
 
beerslurpy said:
omg a reporter stated a true gun fact! I'm so used to "semiautomatically spray 500 bullets a second." Oh right- from the hip.

Ironically, reporters covering gun-related stories do more shooting from the hip than the subjects of their stories. :banghead:
 
Take your hatred somewhere else

Why should I respect the British people or their laws? They have nothing but contempt and hatred for my way of life. I just thank the Founders daily that I'm not part of their commonwealth.
 
Cosmoline - you'll be pleased to know many here share your prejudices. Aren't prejudices grand?

Hawkeye - you are quite possibly right. In fact I suspect you are. I was merely commenting on the lack of comment, and how interesting I find that to be.

Kjervin - I'll take a crack your prefectly reasonable questions later. I'm pretty irritated right now. Not just this thread.
 
Iian, don't let us "yank" your beard! Britain is the root of the US and we're all sad to see what has happened there. Our Right to Keep and Bear Arms comes from British law! Our right to use arms in self defense comes from British law. It's disheartening to see how things have gone there.

Keep fighting them. I know it seems hopeless but it isn't. Educate non-shooters about shooting. Take them shooting. Let them see how fun it is, how sane other gun owners are, how much gun owners focus on safety. Support the UK-NRA or whichever organization you want to support. Don't give up. Don't even give up on your politicians.

And you're welcome to move over here!
 
Oh I'm fine.

I've managed to acquire some unwanted attention, and it's freaking me out. Totally off-topic though, and I shouldn't let it in here. Sorry all. I'll come back later.
 
And as we all know when firearm legislation fails to achieve that which it was created for, rather than repeal said legislation, politicians decide that more ineffectual and restrictive laws are needed.
 
They're complaining about gun smugglers, so they actually manage to catch a bona fide gun smuggler and what is the penalty? 7 years! What a joke.
 
British citizens are no more sheep than American citizens are sheep. Or does American's "love of freedom" make all of our citizens enlightened free thinkers?

"Cheering" for illegal gun trafficers involved in criminal activities may make some sense on the planet Venus.

Can you say, "self-righteous?"
 
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