"Upon request" definition/time frame

[RetiredUSNChief]

A bit of actual legal interpretation here:

What time frame does the term "upon request" mean? I ran across this in another forum and it made me think a bit.

Specifically, this question is with regards to the wording on ATF Form 4 which states:

"Proof of Registration: A person possessing a firearm registered as required by the NFA shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request."

The claim by one particular posting is that there is no requirement to carry the papers, or copies of the papers, with you, nor is there a stated requirement to produce proof of registration "immediately" or "at the time of". This person did not address a specific time frame, only that there was no requirement to actually carry the Form 4 (or copies) with the registered device or that they had to be presented "immediately". Only that the person be able to provide that information to any ATF officer if requested.


Looking into this, "upon request" can have several meanings, with the clearest being in a specific statement defining the time frame. For example, "information will be provided within 30 days upon request".


SC statute with respect to concealed carry permits states:

SC 23-31-215:
(K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer:

(1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer; and

(2) requests identification or a driver's license from a permit holder.

Here, SC has made it explicit that the permit MUST be carried on one's person whenever carrying a concealed weapon AND that it be provided whenever an officer meets the terms specified.


Lawinsider dot com has this to say:

Available upon request means a response is due within seven (7) business days.


I looked through the Form 4 and did not find any verbiage which said that the form must accompany any registered device/firearm. There is no requirement that the form accompany the device/firearm across state lines, though it MAY be required to request permission from the ATF (via Form 5320.20).


Certainly, I can see the convenience of carrying a copy of the Form 4 with the device/firearm. But my question isn't about "convenience", it's about legal "definitions" and "requirements".

 

[AlexanderA]

This is a question for which we're better off not having a definitive answer. Allow ourselves some wiggle room. In other words, don't stir the pot unprovoked.

That said, the smart thing to do is always to carry a copy of the paperwork along with the item. Even if it's a picture of the document on your mobile phone.

 

[Conelrad]

One thing I learned about NFA documentation: NEVER haul your originals around, it they were lost or damaged--well neigh impossible to get replacements in any normal timeframe. Keep them in your safe.

Make good 2-sided copies, have them laminated and tuck them into the gun cases you use for your toys.

Then again, I've never had to produce them at any time in the half-century of enjoying Title II weaponry.

Conelrad

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

This is a question for which we're better off not having a definitive answer. Allow ourselves some wiggle room. In other words, don't stir the pot unprovoked.

That said, the smart thing to do is always to carry a copy of the paperwork along with the item. Even if it's a picture of the document on your mobile phone.

In general, I agree. Obviously, betting the farm on vagaries in the law isn't smart, if only because defending oneself can be prohibitively expensive even if it comes out in your favor in court.

However, much of what we deal with as people who carry firearms involved what the laws SAY and what the laws MEAN. The two don't necessarily match up, especially with respect to a layman's understanding of legal matters.

But I am curious as to what a legal interpretation of this would mean to an attorney. Or, more accurately, what legal interpretations of this would mean under differing scenarios, as it's often the case that definitions/meanings may vary based on circumstances.

 

[CapnMac]

shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request."

Hmm. it's typical for Law Enforcement to presume that to mean immediately, as in at the present time, without undue delay. That's the sort of Executive Branch operational logic that's passing common. Now, whether the Legislative Branch meant it that way is the nub of it.

It's likely to be a "gray area" to my thinking. Much in the way an LEO can require presentation of various forms "on request" like ID, proof of insurance and the like--and that these have passed from immediate need, to simply "in the computer."

Perhaps our resident lawyers can point to CFR or the like for an actual, cited, definition. (In much the same way that we need to refer to other Federal Code to define things like "residency" when used in 18 USC 922.)

 

[rust collector]

"Upon request" generally means at the time of the request. There may be other rule or statute language which attenuates that time frame, but anyone making such a claim should be able to produce authority "upon request". I would be happy to be proven wrong. Meanwhile, all research requests must be routed through the resource management office which no longer exists.

I am no NFA student, but was struck by the language above that seems to limit the authority to request to an ATF officer. The irony is that an ATF officer has a database available that would seem to obviate the need to review paper documents. One more demonstration that the law or rule has not kept up with technology and serves little or no purpose.