Upper tier Ar-15 question

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1911JAS

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Good day,
I need some help understanding what does one get with the cost of an "upper tier" Ar. Like Noveske, Larue, Daniel Denfense, Barrett and the like.
What do you really get for the money spent besides the name?
I have tried to talk to LGS, and can not get an answer other than "just better". I want to know what makes it better under the skin. The hand guard and stock does not make the rifle sub moa.

Thanks
1911JAS
 
This is only my opinion so take it for what it's worth. It applies to AR 15s and other guns that I've purchased. When I first got into the hobby I purchased the cheapest guns I could afford. They were good enough for learning how to shoot. Meaning trigger control, breathing, sight picture, grip and all the other basics. My skill plateaued and I couldn't afford to spend the money and time to bring it to the next level.

That's when I started purchasing higher tier guns that people claimed were better quality. I quickly discovered that the FTF and FTE wasn't the norm and my shooting got better. I suddenly realized that my skill didn't approve but the equipment brought me to another level. This is what I believe buying higher quality firearms does for the lay person. It elevates their skills because the firearm has better triggers, are inherently more accurate, and are less likely to fail. Am I going to be the next Miculek? That's a hard no. However, I can compete at a level above what I was at with the cheapest gear. I'm not saying that the cheapest gear is bad. It serves many people well and they are fine to use it. But it if you appreciate a firearm that lets you focus on the target while rewarding fundamentals then a higher end firearm is for you.

This is what you'll get with a higher end AR. Expect it to be more reliable, more accurate and it should make your groupings better at a faster rate than an entry level AR. Again this is just my humble observation of purchasing and selling firearms for over 25 years. You may view things differently which is correct as well. Each of us have different experiences.
 
The quality will improve but I'm pretty sure 3x the cost for a DD doesn't improve the quality 3x.

What I've seen is entry level rifles function well enough for 90% of the users. My feeling is most never reach the full potential of their entry level rifles because they don't reload. I see people at the range shooting the cheapest 55 gr ammo they can find in their AR's with 1/7 twist barrels designed for heavier bullets. They don't have a clue about twist or ammo.

I use the analogy that a 6K shotgun won't make you a 3x better trap shooter.
 
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What you are paying for is weapons that have been battle tested and approved by those users, who are a tough crowd to please.
All the makes you mentioned had been torture tested before they went to battle, in training. The combat use was the true test. You left out LWRC, BTW.

I use the analogy that a 5K shotgun won't make you a better trap shooter.

It will temporarily. So will any new shotgun. The reason is you have to concentrate on the basics until you learn how you shoot the gun. Then familiarity breeds complacence, and we get sloppy mentally, unless we concentrate on not doing so.
 
I'll agree with the high end rifles being battle tested. If I were getting shot at I would want one of those. That would be the price one pays for someone else doing the rigorous testing. Entry level is not equal in that regard but civilians probably aren't going to need that level of reliability. If you want it you will have to pay for it.
 
Thank you for the reply, I do not have any experience in battle testing a rifle. I do see that both entry level and expense AR's use the same forged upper and lower receiver. And millspec parts used not match grade.

As for the trap shotgun I would think there are a lot more working hours in hand fitting, engraving, and stock work on a Perazzi or Krieghoff.
 
I'd like to add this to my previous reply.

In these types of threads there will be two camps. One who says that their lower priced AR is good enough and those that say their higher tier AR is better. It's up to you to decide what is best for you. A modest AR will be what your looking for if you occasionally shoot. You might be lucky and never have any issues with it but that's the luck of the draw with modest ARs quality control. I'd recommend a higher priced AR if you plan on doing classes or want to get into competition. You'll see fewer problems in a class with a higher tier AR than a modest one. Also, you'll want to purchase a higher end AR if you plan to buy a modest one with the intention of replacing parts. I've read many threads where someone bought a modest AR and stated that they had to replace several components to make it reliable. This includes time for diagnosis. For example you realize that the gas key wasn't properly staked and keeps coming loose which affected reliability. You've lost money in time, ammo and have a rifle you couldn't trust your life with if needed.

I've learned over the years to buy once and cry once.
 
Quality control is really what it really comes down to. Much of the extra cost comes from QC of some sort. There are layers to QC and each one has a direct relationship with adding cost to the product.

It starts with materials. The truly "top tier" companies are building to some sort of spec that they have developed, has some sort of known margin for error and measures KPIs over time to understand the outcomes as it relates to end user quality. Their spec for a bolt might be for specific materials, hardened, heat treated etc. They have to pay market prices for that part and if they are unable to source at low cost, they will need to pay more to source this inventory or invest in a supply chain to ensure they are able to have the part that meets this specification, otherwise it stops production.

A budget tier may not have this specific of a requirement and will attempt to source low cost parts that may or may not meet the same requirement as the top tier provider.

QC works its way downstream to unit testing, assembly, QA. They may utilize more labor or technology to evaluate if their final product meets their requirements. The same bolt will be magnetic particle inspected, it may be hand fitted and undergo other steps to ensure that it is dimensionally correct, operates correctly etc. It not to say there is a guarantee that everything is perfect, but it simply increases the possibility that when it gets to the end user it will operate as designed and within the durability expectations within the margin of error. They will also closely monitor end user feedback and may even have special programs to continually seek out this feedback so that they can integrate it into the own continuous improvement processes.

Lower tiers are likely not to have as robust QC/QA. That doesn't mean that their products are inherently lower quality or defective, it simply means they won't have as many mechanisms in place to ensure the consistency of their quality.

What every persons has to decide is how valuable is that QC is to you. Are able to seek out the specific qualities of materials that you value and seek out the vendors that deliver on those promises? Are you capable of evaluating the quality of your assembled product, make adjustments or work with the vendor to remedy any issues that you have? If not, are you in the position where you don't put anything at significant risk by trading affordability for a lessor known quantity? Do you want to own QA for this firearm or do you prefer to outsource that to the manufacture at a cost to you? In the end, only you can decide.
 
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Ask yourself what are you doing with an AR where being battle tested has any relevance

the chances of anyone here firing a shot in anger are vanishingly small. And the chances of firing more than 3 smaller still

“high end” in the world of commercial AR’s available today has absolutely no meaning like it used to.

realistically there’s probably not 3 places actually manufacturing ar bolts. so what separates an Anderson from a Noveske there?
 
Ask yourself what are you doing with an AR where being battle tested has any relevance

the chances of anyone here firing a shot in anger are vanishingly small. And the chances of firing more than 3 smaller still

“high end” in the world of commercial AR’s available today has absolutely no meaning like it used to.

realistically there’s probably not 3 places actually manufacturing ar bolts. so what separates an Anderson from a Noveske there?


That could be true. The components may come from 3 places but putting them together properly between the two manufacturers may vary. I'd suspect that Noveske rejects more bolts than Anderson after their QC. However; this is all speculation and anecdotal from reading forums over the years. The high end manufacturers receive fewer questions on FTF and FTE than a modest A

Lets talk about 1911s. Anyone can go to the 1911 forum and review the lower end 1911s for problems and compare the number of threads to the higher end 1911s. The disparity between the two isn't close.

However; the OP needs to decide what is right for he/she. I can only speak of my experience and I've purchased many items thinking they were ok to only discover problems. Then I'd sell the items at a loss to purchase something that higher QC. In the end I would've saved money and time just purchasing the higher QC item.
 
Thank you again, so it sounds like QC, a higher spec on parts (trigger, BCG, and Barrel) and a name. What I was hoping to find out was.
Ar manufacture X used this barrel because of these reasions.
Ar manufacture Y used this BCG because of this.
Ar manufacture Z is more reliable because of this.
 
Thank you again, so it sounds like QC, a higher spec on parts (trigger, BCG, and Barrel) and a name. What I was hoping to find out was.
Ar manufacture X used this barrel because of these reasions.
Ar manufacture Y used this BCG because of this.
Ar manufacture Z is more reliable because of this.

Please let us know what you decide to purchase.
 
RW Dale hit on the most important question - what is the use of the rifle? Determine what the primary use the rifle is and then research to find the best parts to accomplish that goal. In my experience rifles should be purpose specific. As the saying goes, "jack of all trades, master of none".
 
...what does one get with the cost of an "upper tier" Ar...?
Not all "Upper Tier" ARs are created equal. Some "boutique" builders slap on a free float tube, fancy buttstock, aftermarket grip trick trigger, and upcharge the buyer for what's basically a pig with lipstick.

On the other hand, KAC has done some real improvements to the AR along with quality furniture and improved manufacturing processes.
 
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As said top tier guns usually are better and have better QC. You can expect better reliability and accuracy in general. However I have seen exceptions at the range.
 
(Very) Expensive barrels. Proper low profile barrel nuts. Low profile gas blocks on dimpled barrels. ( a few are even pinned!) Nice rails.

JP, FN, Larue (L kits are only $800), BCM, Colt, LMT are my favorites.

Dont overlook 3 gun specialized rifles. 3 gun is pushing the limits right now. But it's easy enough to put a milspec buffer back in, for serious use.

Keep in mind that yesterdays boutique QC and specs trickles down eventually. 5.56 AR's are more reliable than ever, nearly across the entire board. Stag and Colt bones rifles are a great option. You dont have to spend $3000.
 
I use the analogy that a 6K shotgun won't make you a 3x better trap shooter.

Hmmmmmm. Perhaps you should inform the worlds best that they should be getting by with Mossy and Turkish crap.. Instead of the Shotguns that do in fact dominate.
 
One thing higher quality ARs like Colt, BCM and others share with budget guns is the lousy standard mil-spec trigger in some models. An improved mil-spec from ALG, BCM and many others will help you shoot more consistently. For me a Larue or Geissele is well worth the extra money. I’ve bought all my G’s during Black Friday sales at $70 off.
 
If you swap the barrel and BCG to the $700 Ar does the group size change.
If you swap the entire upper and trigger assembly, the group size will change, because the lower receiver is the least important part. Things like handguard design and correct dimensions of upper receiver housings and rails, method of barrel attachment, etc. are also in play.
 
I know one of the manufactures listed in the OP goes through tremendous amounts of troubles to make their barrels are top of the line. Like the owner is personally testing the finished products, getting custom tooling made and fine tuning new equipment
 
Think of it this way, budget AR as a Ford Ranger truck, and high end AR as a Ford 450. Some people are happy with a ford ranger, others need the F450 with the majority of the people buying F150/F250 just like mid-tier ARs. Will a Ford Ranger do the job, Yes. Will it last as long as a F450 towing heavy loads? Probably not. But then again, do you need to tow heavy load or do you need to move a sofa?
 
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