Use deadly force?

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"Does Utah not allow carry of knives over certain lengths by some chance?"

no

"I wouldn't have showed them the weapon after they walked off.. Just my .02 that is doing nothing to help the situation.."

Your right it did nothing to help the situation but I was pissed.
 
I don't know, maybe you saved that guy's life by showing him how close he came to getting gutted. A reality check like that may have prompted him to re-think his irresponsible and dangerous behavior.
 
Are you telling me Utah does not have assault and battery as an arrestable offence on their books?

Not named that, they don't. In Utah, the only type of battery legally defned that I know of is sexual battery. However, Utah does have assault and aggravated assault with would fall under most state's definitions of assault and battery.

76-5-102. Assault.
(1) Assault is:
(a) an attempt, with unlawful force or violence, to do bodily injury to another;
(b) a threat, accompanied by a show of immediate force or violence, to do bodily injury to another; or
(c) an act, committed with unlawful force or violence, that causes bodily injury to another or creates a substantial risk of bodily injury to another.
(2) Assault is a class B misdemeanor.
(3) Assault is a class A misdemeanor if:
(a) the person causes substantial bodily injury to another; or
(b) the victim is pregnant and the person has knowledge of the pregnancy.
(4) It is not a defense against assault, that the accused caused serious bodily injury to another.


76-5-103. Aggravated assault.
(1) A person commits aggravated assault if he commits assault as defined in Section 76-5-102 and he:
(a) intentionally causes serious bodily injury to another; or
(b) under circumstances not amounting to a violation of Subsection (1)(a), uses a dangerous weapon as defined in Section 76-1-601 or other means or force likely to produce death or serious bodily injury.
(2) A violation of Subsection (1)(a) is a second degree felony.
(3) A violation of Subsection (1)(b) is a third degree felony.
As far as definitions of types of injury, "serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates or causes serious permanent disfigurement, protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or creates a substantial risk of death. "Substantial bodily injury" means bodily injury, not amounting to serious bodily injury, that creates or causes protracted physical pain, temporary disfigurement, or temporary loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ.

As to whether one can use deadly for to prevent aggravated assault, I submit Utah Code 76-2-402:
76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if he or she:
(a) initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(b) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(c) (i) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force; and
(ii) for purposes of Subsection (i) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(A) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(B) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).
(4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;
(b) the immediacy of the danger;
(c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
(d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
(e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship.
 
Nix said:
if im not allowed to carry a gun i carry a blade and in a threaghtening situation im more than happy to show i have it. (to the person with the ccw... if im within 15 feet of you i dont care how quick draw mc'graw you are... if you go to draw a gun your toast)
so if im within about 15 feet of someone thats displaying threatening body language i would pull out the knife and let them know that i am completely willing to use it if they do not continue on their current path and let me move off to the side. (let them know that you are willing to move... that way you dont incite stupid macho man actions of YOU MOVE)

I will respectfully disagree with showing the knife prematurely (or after the fact). From the BG's perspective, not knowing what ganymede is carrying may be the only thing deterring them from acting. I.E. showing them the knife is direct evidence that he doesn't have the gun they were worried about.
 
Assault is:

(c) an act, committed with unlawful force or violence, that causes bodily injury to another or creates a substantial risk of bodily injury to another.

The substantial risk of bodily injury was met in this scenario. You purposefully bump into another [ make contact, in other states it is battery ], while howling and acting abnormal and then aggres toward another at that hour in that location and make contact is well within the realm of reasonablness that another would fear he was about to be injured and the "potential" of that injury would not be known until and after the contact was made.

(2) Assault is a class B misdemeanor.

Utah needs to update their laws.:rolleyes:

76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


The two wierdos actions would make a reasonable person suspicious, and closing to make contact would justify a "reaction" of some kind, and that may or may not mean justified force. If it had happened that the person who ran into him then grabbed him by the neck, force could certainly be used in return according to the statute. [ reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself ]

(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;


What was the nature of the danger here? It could have been to rob, to beat, to kill, to about anything. From the above citings of law in Utah, it would appear the citizens of that state might have to wait to be injured before they might act in defense of their person.

Then again, if the two of them had been beaten half out of their wits for threatening actions against the OP by someone who was capable of such physically, who could say how it would end up.

Keeping the knife at the ready was smart. Not demanding they leave him alone and move away/not come closer [ back off ] before they were that close would have been prudent. It would go to motive of the agresssors who didn't heed warnings that the party was in fear of physical harm [ in this case a misdemeanor on the agressors part which could at any time lead to a felony act instantly.

He didn't meet the criteria for lethal force by their actions, but they could have easily been physically forced to leave him alone, based on his fear of sustaining injury by their actions.

Utah doesn't sound like it has entered the 21st century in this regard nor updated their statutes to allow a defense of willful battery of another.

Brownie
 
I, also, don't recommend showing a knife prematurely. A knife is a highly expedient weapon. It is inferior to many other hand-held weapons. Your knife hand is particularly vulnerable to attack and damage; better to keep it withdrawn until the last moment.

Years ago, I foiled a carjacking attempt by having the good sense not to reveal the thing that went, 'snap' behind my leg was a knife instead of a gun. The jacker froze in his tracks, kept his gun in his pocket, and plainly wasn't interested in getting any closer to me in order to find out.

I wouldn't show a knife; nor would I brag about the fact that I had one. Any good stick, bat, whatever, is superior to a knife. (A couple of large rocks are superior to a knife!) If those two guys had been, 'piss mean' they might have turned around and placed you at a distinct disadvantage. In CQB you shouldn't lead with a blade; you must always protect your weapon hand; and, against two guys that could be a real problem.
 
brownie0486 said:
Jorg said:
(2) Assault is a class B misdemeanor.
Utah needs to update their laws.

Huh? It's not strikingly different from Arizona law:

13-1203. Assault; classification

A. A person commits assault by:

1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causing any physical injury to another person; or

2. Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury; or

3. Knowingly touching another person with the intent to injure, insult or provoke such person.

B. Assault committed intentionally or knowingly pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 is a class 1 misdemeanor. Assault committed recklessly pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 or assault pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 2 is a class 2 misdemeanor. Assault committed pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 3 is a class 3 misdemeanor.

Especially when Arizona only allows for a 6 months in jail and/or a $2500 fine, 4 months and/or $750, or 1 month and/or $500 for a class 1, 2, or 3 misdemeanor, respectively. Whereas Utah is 1 year and/or $2500 or 6 months and/or $1000 for a class A and B misdemeanor, respectively. Unless, of course, you think Arizona needs to update their laws as well.

From the above citings of law in Utah, it would appear the citizens of that state might have to wait to be injured before they might act in defense of their person.
Not as I understand it. It only has to be imminent.

Utah doesn't sound like it has entered the 21st century in this regard nor updated their statutes to allow a defense of willful battery of another.

Not sure what you mean there. It's pretty clear in 76-2-402(1) that you can use force to protect yourself or others from unlawful force with the restriction on using deadly force when only one believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

While Utah remains in the 20th or even 19 century in many regards, I guess the use of force laws don't seem that archaic to me.
 
The difference may be how it is interpreted by the courts here and how ones defense is presented to the jury.

I don't have to prove I was in fear of my life. Utah citizens seem to have to prove their case in this regard.

The state of Arizona has the burden of proof, not the citizen. In other words I am innocent until proven guilty [ the "state" proves their case ] as it should be.

This 3. Knowingly touching another person with the intent to injure, insult or provoke such person. is a big difference between the two states laws. See that word PROVOKE in that phrase? It has teeth. Ones defensive responses/actions don't have to be from imminent threat, they only have to be in response to provocative actions to elicit a physical response of SD.

I would think the two wierdos would be considered "provoking" a response from the OP in this state based on their actions, and he would have been within his rights to respond accordingly with physical force even if they did not seriously injure him, they are guilty here. They provoked him by their actions, and here, those actions don't have to come from being touched, though being touched has it's merits in the manner of affirmative actions taken in their defense of self:D.

Brownie
 
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Do I have a lot to learn about case law? Absolutely. When the Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court stop studying case law, I guess I will too. Until then, EVERYONE who works in any aspect of law has a lot to learn about case law. What scares me is non-lawyers who think they already know everything.

Homicide justified by self-defense is an affirmative defense. You do NOT have the presumption of innocence. Despite the fact that in this forum, we all proclaim that we would rather be 'judged by twelve than carried by six', that doesn't mean that convincing a jury is an easy process. Even if you THINK the law is on your side, that doesn't mean the jury is. The reason we teach and proclaim, "Always carry wherever and whenever you are legally allowed to", is that to claim to a jury that you had no other choice than to kill someone, your story cannot contain the phrase: "I knew I was going to bad area, so I put on my gun." The correct answer is, "I didn't do anything any differently than I normally do. I am ALWAYS armed." Taking a late-night stroll in a park you know to be dangerous, and arming yourself with a weapon that is (to say the least) less than practical "just in case" does NOT show anyone that you were seeking to avoid any kind of conflict. NOTHING in this story demonstrates avoiding conflict. No avoidance, no warning, no retreat, no responsible behavior.

When brownie 0486 says: "If the other two had been carrying knives", this won't help him either. They WEREN'T. Wishing and imagining they were won't help.

Common law basically defines battery as offensive touching. Assault is not automatically attached to battery. Imagining circumstances where this could become a defensive situation still doesn't make THIS one justifiable. "They were getting closer and almost collided with me" does not equal "I reasonably believed they were about to cause me serious bodily injury or death." Even if it justifies some escalation of force, such as, raising an arm and pushing away, it does NOT justify DEADLY force. This is why I tell people, deadly force is the ONLY force. If it's not worth killing over, it's not worth fighting over at all. Everything else is grey area which the new D.A. looking to make a name for himself is going to put in front of a jury to decide. If you don't believe this, in AZ or ANY OTHER STATE, read Massad Ayoob's extensive case files.

You DO have to prove you were in fear for your life. If you don't understand that, you might want to have a sit down with the lawyer you have already consulted for this possibility. (and verified that your homeowner's insurance will cover his fee.) The statute you quote refers to the defendant's state of mind, NOT the victim's. You have to PROVE that he was trying to hurt the guy, not just scare him. All he has to say is, "No, I did not have the intent to provoke or injure that person." and you are back to explaining why you had a bowie knife out and ready. You are ASSUMING that the other 11 members of that jury think like you do. You are assuming that ANY of them think like you do. When you speak to your lawyer, ask him, and he will tell you, this is NOT a position he wants to defend.

Believe me when I tell you, I've done my homework. Or not. It's your trial.
 
Homicide justified by self-defense is an affirmative defense. You do NOT have the presumption of innocence.

That may be true in most locales, but here in Az, the law was changed last year. See, you do have soemthing to learn.:D

that doesn't mean that convincing a jury is an easy process The state has the burden of proof here as of last year, I don't have to convince the jury of anything.:D

Taking a late-night stroll in a park you know to be dangerous, and arming yourself with a weapon that is (to say the least) less than practical "just in case" does NOT show anyone that you were seeking to avoid any kind of conflict

Really? I'm entitled to arm myself with any instrument that is not restricted otherwise by law and be anywhere I choose to go that is lawful to do so. There's laws that state I can't go somewhere because it's dangerous? How would "dangerous" be determined to begin with? Dangerous to some people would be leaving their homes in some of the neighborhoods in this country.

arming yourself with a weapon that is (to say the least) less than practical "just in case"

It's not unusual at all to carry a field knife [ the description of which could in fact be a bowie knife as a BOWIE KNIFE describes many styles of long knives by states statutes across the US ], it makes a very practical weapon [ in fact, the bowie type long knives are considered the quintessential pure fighting knife by those who understand what they are capable of and how to use one ]. All knives of any type fall under states "dangerous weapons" or "deadly weapons" statutes, and as such are considered dangerous or deadly weapons by law with varying restrictions as to length and/or "form/style" of knife such as dirks, daggers or stilettos ].

Less than practical? Or most practical in the field? Only you can decide, but people who spend time in the outdoors are regularly seen with or known to carry a bowie type long knife [ which can by law describe about any hunting/field knife being carried ].

Imagining circumstances where this could become a defensive situation still doesn't make THIS one justifiable.

Nor did I suggest that anywhere in my posts. I simply stated potentials that could have been present based on the other parties antics prior to the touching.

"They were getting closer and almost collided with me" does not equal "I reasonably believed they were about to cause me serious bodily injury or death."

Based on their abnormal behaviour demostrated prior to closing on the OP as well as the area and time of day, one certainly could be in fear of bodily injury. You have to take the totality of the circumstances into consideration, but as a law student, you know that don't you?:rolleyes:

You DO have to prove you were in fear for your life. If you don't understand that, you might want to have a sit down with the lawyer you have already consulted for this possibility.

In Az, I don't have the burden of proof I was in fear, the state has to prove I was not in fear to make any case against me.

All he has to say is, "No, I did not have the intent to provoke or injure that person." and you are back to explaining why you had a bowie knife out and ready

No you are not. He said, she said, statements have nothing to do with the defendants mindset at that time. You think someones denying any intent has any bearing on the defendants thoughts at that time? Unbelievable you would even make that statement as a law student. The defendants thoughts will be judged on the reasonableness and totality of the circumstances. You think some soccer mom would not understand the fear in that same situation, in that time and place? You'd have to find a majority of jurors who would not be in fear based on the same scenraio. From what I understand, most soccer moms would be intimidated to even be placed at that location at that time of night without two adult males coming towards them howling and acting as if they were "out of their minds".

Please---more people would be in fear than would not be in fear based on the facts in evidence here as related by the OP, by the time of evening, the area this occured, the aggressors behaviour which would never be considered normal by a reasonable standard, and the fact there was disparity of force involved.

At no time have I stated lethal SD was justified in my posts, which seems to be the flavor you are attempting to use with your suggestive remarks at times in your above post. On the other hand, given the totality of the circumstances, the OP preparing for SD of some kind was prudent based on their abnormal actions, the secluded area and the time of night.

What scares me is non-lawyers who think they already know everything. Oh, I by no means know everything, nor alluded to that thought process. What I do know comes from 28 years in criminal and civil cases and the accompanying trials in those cases. Murder, arson and rape cases [ 5 years as a Suffolk Superior court appointed investigator by the Comm of Mass in Boston and another 5 years working as an adjunct private investigator for the Comm of Mass Atty Generals Office in criminal cases under the director of the Criminal Division named Stephen Delinski] as well as working as a sworn police officer in the same Comm for just under 9 years. Consequently, I understand quite a bit more than the average layperson in these type of discussions. Not everything, but enough to get by just fine thank you.

Brownie
 
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"Consequently, I understand quite a bit more than the average layperson in these type of discussions. Not everything, but enough to get by just fine thank you.

Brownie"


+1

I remember back in the day when I knew everything too. I think we've all been there. We read a couple books, and we're an expert. Most of us kept it to ourselves, though, until we found out we didn't know everything...

c2k
 
Actually Gunnerpalace,

The edged weapons laws vary greatly from state to state. For instance, oregon and arizona allow their citizens to carry auto folders [ switchblades ]. Perfectly legal.

In my state, Arizona, there is no blade length restriction on folders or straight blades. Everyday I carry a 5.5" spear point straight blade out here, openly on my belt, and in full view of all citizens as well as police officers on the state, county, and local level. No one gives it a second look, it's common to see large straight blades on belts of people just walking around Walmart, the grocery stores, pumping gas, in bars, and generally going about their daily lives.

We also get to carry firearms openly out here in public anywhere it is not posted otherwise by the correct legally enforced signs [ which is rare but you do run into them like at rodeos, etc at times ].

Thats not "peculiar" at all. Whats more precular is that other states like yours seem to feel they need to restrict your right to do so.:rolleyes:

Brownie
 
canopy2k,

I'm as likely to be wrong on any issue here as another. One of the reasons that can easily happen is the disparity between laws among the diffferent states, counties and local jurisdictions here in the US.

People should understand that there are no guarantees, when it comes to lawyers, courts, arrests, convictions, juries, and dozens of other variables, that they will make the right decision in the right circumstance at the right time, even if they are a lawyer.

In fact, I've seen lawyers get skunked in court too many times by other lawyers to consider their opinions of any consequence. Being a researcher by trade for almost 30 years, I'll "do the math" and attempt to figure the rules out in the jurisdiction I'm in myself.

Any determination I may make [ read as "an opinion" ] is based on those years on the streets, the courts, and a unique understanding that you are at risk of prosecution if you "get into it" with someone, no matter the outcome or if weapons were used.

Everyone needs to make their own choices in how they act around others, how they interact with others verbally, and what, if any, repercussions one is willing to give another for those actions.

I decided a long time ago, working the streets, that I had to interact, had to react, and had to enfoce my own physical safety in a manner that would not allow others to step on my rights, my toes, threaten my safety in any way, etc. and if that were to occur, the amount of force I would mete out to get them to stop their aggressions [ verbal or physical ] and with how expedient that force would be applied.

You take your chances, in all things in life. I happen to have set my own standard, do not expect anyone to live by that standard, not expect anyone else to think I'm going to live by their idea of fair play to others.

I've seen people "dicked" over physically and they never aggressed back, till it was too late. Not a serious threat of death, but enoug of a threat that physical injuries were sustained from minor to fairly complicated. I've seen people take abuse verbally in an attempt to embarrass that party and they never acted to stop that type of abuse either.

Their "button" could not be pushed hard enough to get them to act in SD of their person. Others buttons could be pushed quite far before they even verbally challenged the party to "please stop". Others whose buttonw were pushed too easily that led to immediate actions against the party as well when it wasn't probably necessary.

So you have to decide how you play the game of life, how far you let others aggress you verbally or physically. There is no right or wrong answer, just what you yourself feel you are willing to take before your button is pushed and you act on the aggression against you.

I explain to students in the H2H and defensive knife classes that I've decided to act thusly, I'm like a hot pot belly stove. I give warmth from mere inches away, touch me and you'll get burned immediately. Doesn't matter who you are, hands off or deal with that swift action. The chips fall where they may afterwards and I'm willing accept the consequences of those actions.

I'll also likely be able to articulate my reasonable response to others when asked based on the experiences of the past within the justice system we live within.

Brownie
 
Well I'm certainly no expert; but I've run into a couple of situations on the street where I contemplated the use of deadly force to defend my life. And for the record, I'm just Dave the private citizen. I'm not - nor have I ever been - a cop or attorney.

Self defense starts with your mindset. Cultivate the mentality that you are not prey. Soon you will carry yourself as such. It doesn't necessarily mean to carry yourself like you are Barney Badass; but it does mean that you should conduct yourself with more visible signs of competence and surety. They picked up on the fact that you were scared and F'ed with you. In the dark, alone, no escape routes at hand, outnumbered and threatened... It's time to tip your hand and forcefully tell them to back off. Make absolutely certain that they know you have your weapon ready to go. You surrendered the initiative when you let them make contact with you unopposed. You're lucky they were not intent on causing you harm as I doubt you would still be alive.

Having a knife or a gun is great as it expands your options, but they aren't magic talismans. If you carry one get training in how to use one in a fight. This is imperative as a combat situation requires the employment of vastly different skills than those needed on the square range. It can cost a bit, but it is worth it to get professional instruction.
 
You can carry openly, or get your ccw and go concealed. It's relatively easy to secure NFA weapons, the biggest hurdle is waiting to get printed at the sheriffs office, then send the forms with the tax stamp money with the sheriffs blessing and wait for the feds to process the forms.

You can walk into a convenience store for a cup of coffee and some may give you a quick glance at carrying openly, but I've not ever seen someone saying anything, everyone out here knows it's legal, and more importantly, see enough guns on waists in holsters to not be alarmed.

When I first got out here, I was openly carrying before the permit was in hand and I was in line at a convenience store heading out the desert to do some shooting. I felt someone come up behind me and it was a local dep sheriff in uniform.

I felt unfortable with the gun in the open, though legal, it was the first time a law dog was that close to me with one openly carried. As I turned and our eyes met, he smiled and asked if I was going shooting today. I answered in the affirmative, out to the witlow dam. He smiled again and said he wished he didn't have to work, he'd join me.

We talked about the glock, how I liked it, how he liked his sig 40 and we parted in the parking lot, him telling me to have a good day shooting.

Now remember, I was from Mass where if you had even been seen carrying concealed, with a permit to do so [ I had one there since 1972 ] but someone noticed it printing, and called the police, when they arrived you'd likely have your permit pulled, given a rash of crap and perhaps arrested for breaking a law.:rolleyes:

It's good to be where people are not so paraoid as to want to take your rights away easily without good reason. It's still very much cowboy country out here with the exception of the cities like Phoenix and Tucson. I live in an area thats easy on your rights, in the county and away from the hustle and bustle of city life. 10 miles from my house, you could have been time warped back to 1881, nothing has changed in that time in the desert.

Brownie
 
Brownie,

What I said wasn't directed at you.

You aren't claiming to be an expert. You are answering questions based on reality. Your answers aren't black and white, but a nice shade of gray. Which is exactly where our legal system lies. I was referencing other users in this thread that seem to "know it all".

c2k
 
canopy2k,

I didn't take it that way sir. ;)

Sorry I didn't get back to this thread before now, just able to get mail as I've been on the road since Wed a m training a PD down here in Fla.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Honestly, if I were in that situation, that guy would have gotten stabbed (assuming I would I have done everything the same way, and I don't think I would have- more on that later). I don't carry, or have, a blade that large, but out by yourself against two guys like that? I doubt I would have shouted a warning, but I certainly would have increased distance if I could. If it wasn't possible, still- wouldn't have brandished or given a warning, I think. If it came down to the way it came down on you, though, he would have been stabbed if I had been there.

There's just no way to know whether they were out to really hurt you or just kid around. And quite frankly, if I were lunged at like that, I wouldn't have given him the benefit of the doubt. You're outnumbered, they could have weapons, who knows? Would it have been the right decision to retaliate with force in that case? I think so. There was a hostile action, apparently hostile intent, and I would have treated it as such.


Now in hindsight, you can say they were joking and you're okay, but that doesn't mean you made the right decision. If an officer shouts at a guy and tells him not to move (because he's getting out of his car for some reason) after pulling him over for a traffic violation, and he puts his hand behind his back, the right decision would have been to shoot him (I'm leaving some blanks- you guys can probably imagine the scenario I'm talking about).

Now, if afterwards, he finds out the guy was just pulling his wallet out, did he make the right decision? In my opinion, yes. The right decision is not dependent on what you know after the fact. The officer in this case didn't know, and if he was wrong, he would have been in serious trouble. It's tragic, in such a case, but people make mistakes- sometimes lethal, tragic, mistakes. It happens. But that doesn't mean the officer acted improperly or made the wrong decision.


The point is that it's not fair to criticize a decision based on knowledge gained after the fact. If you had killed this guy, I think you would have made the right decision. What are you supposed to do, let the guy get control and seize the advantage before you begin to retaliate? Hostile action should be treated as such- immediately. Quite frankly, if you're stupid enough to try to "pretend to attack" someone, you probably have it coming. Just like that other thread- "I was fake robbed with a guy with a cell phone." If that guy had eaten a bullet or was otherwise injured, I say, tough luck. Threatening a life is serious business, and quite frankly, there's no room for "joking around." If you try to joke around with it, I have no sympathy if you suffer the consequences because someone interprets hostile action as hostile action. The intent in such a case is irrelevant.

If I point a gun at you, but the mag is empty (and obviously, you don't know that), are you going to shoot me, or are you going think I'm joking around and not retaliate? It's serious business, and it's certainly not a game. I would never treat it as such, and I'd advise everyone else to do the same. Don't gamble your life on the hope that the other guy may be joking about his aggression.
 
ok,
Having been in the situation many times , my most common response was to howl back, and as they approached, said wassup? or howdy, or got a light?.

From that point on what happened depended on their response. While the initial contact was being made I would check myself, both as a situation, weapondry and my attitude.

Being self aware of my surroundings and my inventory, has allowed me to survive many similar situations.


BTW as a young man there were times when I would put myself in situations knowing what would happen, wanting them to happen. { looking for a fight } so to speak. Young and dumb.
 
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