Use of Deadly Force

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By your response I sense you think I do not understand your points.

I DO understand. What good would having a dead child be because I hesitated?

If it is nearly anyone else being attacked I would do as you say... my child... no way.

I will use any means available to protect my child... bank on it.
 
I hope you have plenty of time to think if anything happens to you and yours, and I completely understand the importance of focused scenerio training.

All I am saying is that A lot would go out the window in a real situation.
 
All I am saying is that A lot would go out the window in a real situation.

THAT'S the point of training. In training you assume that you're going to lose 50% if your conscious abilities due simply to stress. Inoculating yourself to that stress through good FoF training is a great help, as is training your basic skills to the point that they become UNconscious, i.e., you don't have to think about them, you just do them because they're habit.

That frees you to use your conscious mind to navigate through a stressful situation without the "brain freeze" that gets so many people killed or hurt when "the real thing" happens. Simply saying that you'd go berserk and kill 'em all is, again, intellectually and physically lazy. The best thing you can do for your child or loved one is to have trained to deal with the stress so you aren't as affected by it. That way you have the luxury of being able to think clearly in any situation, whether it's a pack of thugs or a pack of wild dogs attacking your child.

Anything less is a disservice to yourself and your loved ones. You might as well not be carrying a gun. In fact, you shouldn't if you aren't willing to adopt the proper mindset and get the training to execute it.
 
That is funny...

I NEVER said anything about "kill 'em all"... I did say I would do whatever it takes to protect my child. I still am standing there. I will definately train when possible. I did just take a basic pistol training course with Captain Rick Denny of the New Albany Police.

I am absolutely not intellectually lazy... like I said... I would not protect just anyone. No matter how ignorant you think I am my child will survive this type of attack if I am there so I will be the stupid hero (whether I use force, the force, a jedi mind trick, or the phone).

And saying I shouldn't have a gun appears nazi(ish)... please try to respect my rights as an American. I have never harmed anyone, and do not plan to. Just because I have decided through my training and concious/subcocious cognitive meditation that I will do whatever it takes to protect my child does not mean I am evil, lazy, stupid, ignorant, or gun crazy (whatever).

I agree with everything you have said... I am just saying I will do whatever it takes to defend my child with or without your, the government, or some jury's blessing. GOD has given me this blessing... that is all I need.

You may choose another route... welcome to America.
 
Chic,
In post number 45 you said this:

I NEVER want to kill another human being (well maybe a few terrorists), but I will NOT watch a gang of monsters kill my child.

They would be lucky if I miss them while they are running away!!! EF THEM!!!

Prosecute me... put me in jail... but my kid lives (period).

No one is suggesting that you watch anyone harm your child. All sacp81170a is saying is that you are not thinking clearly now even to post the line I highlighted in bold. Training should enable you to think clearly under stress so that you don't act irrationally. If you would shoot at them as they flee, you are going to be in serious legal trouble in most of these United States. They will likely prosecute you, and if they don't put you in jail between the legal fees to stay out of jail and the civil action you are probably sentencing your kid to live a life of poverty along with you and the rest of your family.

Your post and the subsequent ones you have made in this thread could be pretty damning evidence against you in both criminal and civil court should the worst happen and you actually have to use your firearm to defend yourself or your family.

We don't take these things lightly here in the Strategies and Tactics forum.

I did just take a basic pistol training course with Captain Rick Denny of the New Albany Police.

That's a good start but there is much more to the use of deadly force then basic marksmanship.

And saying I shouldn't have a gun appears nazi(ish)... please try to respect my rights as an American.

It's not "nazi(ish)" at all. Your rights as an American also include the right to make poor decisions about the use of that gun and that not only has potentially very negative consequences for you and your family, but negative consequences for for everyone who chooses to exercise their rights responsibly.

With rights come responsibility. If you aren't willing to accept that responsibility then maybe you shouldn't exercise those rights.

Before you post again, read the threads tacked on the top of this forum, especially the one called Bloodlust. Then spend some time reading threads on use of force here and in legal.

sacp81170a is giving you good advice and trying to help you, not trying to put you down.

Jeff
 
Obviously I am not going to fly off of the handle and hurt someone...

I will always protect my family... if you want to save my posts to prosecute me I can send you some more along with any other information you may need.

In short... it is a hypothetical situation, a hypothetical bunch of answers, and an excersise of Free Speech.

Again... I want to train, and that basic course was great. I learned if I fear for my life or another life deadly force may be an option... an option. READ all of my words... It is an option that I would not be afraid to use if my child was being beaten by a gang of thugs... again... with or without permission, laws, superior intellegeince such as yours, etc.

That does NOT mean I am promoting this strategy. You can hesitate, ask the thugs for their autograph, ask their opinion of the state laws, invite them inside for tea, or whatever you want... this is America.

I absolutely agree with what you all are saying about training. I am not sure what the problem is/was.

I am NOT promoting the assault of innocent criminals that have rights to a trial by jury. I am NOT promoting you defend your family. Criminals rights are important.

Heck... maybe they could just rape, beat, and kill my kid... then I could file suit against them, get $0, and I wouldn't go to jail.

Thanks for the advice!
 
I RE- read all of the posts and figured out this may be the usual "can't tell tone of voice through email" etc.

I think there is little sense of humor here (THR) as well as (some) moderators who get off on thinking people want/need their infinate wisdom.

I will be clear on this post so nobody gets the wrong idea:

I do NOT want to be unsafe with anything (including firearms). I am a lifetime NRA member.

I NEVER want to be forced into a situation where I have to emotionally/physically harm another human being (except terrorists).

I NEVER want to get on the bad side of fellow gun owners such as yourselves.

I NEVER want to have to go to court for anything.

I NEVER want to be one of the folks who give gun owners a bad name.

I respect the 10 commandments of gun ownership.

I WILL train when the classes are available as well as continuing to learn from others on these forums.

But let me be VERY clear... I will do whatever it takes to protect my family no matter how communist this or any other government power becomes. No matter what the laws are, no matter what "the people" say, no matter what new rights criminals are given, no matter what time of day, no matter who the President is, no matter if I am the only AMERICAN left in the room... I will use my phone, fork, spoon, stick, paper, clothing, and most importantly my BRAIN to protect my family from harm. It is a GOD given right that NO human can take away. People can only pretend they are above GOD.

My entire post (all of them) were 100% in the context of protecting my child from a gang beating on him/her. Have fun trying to use this to prosecute someone as I would use this in my defense. Oh, I am sure you are/were a cop or something (thank you for your service), but my case can be made by this: GOD is higher than any government, and that is the only judge I face...
 
In short... it is a hypothetical situation, a hypothetical bunch of answers, and an excersise of Free Speech.

There is no free speech here. You signed an agreement when you registered to abide by the rules.

But more important then that, you have just made it public record that you intend to shoot at attackers as they are fleeing. Now suppose the worse happens and you are involved in a defensive shooting. And, like so many of them are, it's not exactly clear what happened. Perhaps your attacker was turning away as you pressed the trigger and the physical evidence makes it appear you shot him in the back, even though the attack was still in progress when you pressed the trigger. Yes, such things have happened and it's taken expert witnesses and courtroom reenactments to convince the jury of truth. What do you think your chances of convincing a criminal or civil jury that you did in fact shoot while the attack was in progress after the prosecutor/plaintiff's attorney enters your posts in this thread into evidence?

Maybe in your world, the police pat you on the back and the mayor gives you a good citizen award when you are involved in a defensive use of force incident? But let me tell you that in the real world it isn't like that at all.

No one is advocating that you protect criminal's rights. We are advocating that you learn the applicable law involved and abide by it.

I would suggest that if you aren't comfortable with the level of discourse here, that you might be happier somewhere else. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can talk that kind of trash and get all kinds of +1 posts. You won't find that here.

Jeff
 
AND after re re reading I am one of the few here that never mentioned firing or drawing a gun... be careful trying to prosecute me for these posts... you would find yourself in an embarassing situation.
 
I NEVER mentioned shooting anything... not even coyotes (which is very challenging).

There is Free Speech everywhere just as there are dick taters everywhere that are against it. And I am not talking trash... well that was and I apologize but please read ALL of the posts... I am NOT talking trash.
 
There is Free Speech everywhere

As Jeff said, not when you're a guest on someone else's forum. I'm not trying to take you to task individually for the tone of your comments, but I can't sit by quietly while a group "+1's" a course of action that would not only be legally questionable but is probably not tactically sound either. I've seen personally how complicated things get in court when you'd think a situation is clear cut. So far, you've done nothing to contribute to the discussion other than throw in some emotional arguments that don't stand up to rational scrutiny and then take offense when offered suggestions as to how best to prepare yourself.

Now, back OT:

The biggest mistake the fathers in both situations posed by the OP made was getting into and remaining in the "danger zone", i.e., close enough for the thugs to get to them with contact weapons. Getting beat badly enough to get put in the hospital is a pretty solid indication of failure of their strategies to some degree. Good hand to hand skills and training in how to deal with more than one attacker at a time might have been useful, but another tool comes to mind: OC.

OC would have been useful for several reasons.

1. It keeps you out of arm's reach.
2. It makes a nice area weapon.
3. It's usually taken as a de-escalation of force, a defensive tool.
4. Nobody goes to the hospital.
5. If you accidentally spray your child, well the effects wear off and no physical damage is done.
6. If these are hardened criminals, you've at least degraded their ability to attack you.

OC or any less lethal weapon should always be backed up by a firearm, but in these cases if OC had been employed and the BG's continued the attack, you'd be on much firmer legal ground if you had to use deadly force. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client used every means at his disposal to stop the attack and had no choice but to shoot."

I'm not saying that OC would have worked like a magic wand, but it's another tool in the box that might have been very useful in this case.
 
The page-three syndrome seems to have set in here with a vengeance. If the OP is satisfied with the discussion so far, we'll leave it at that. If not, please open a new thread on the same topic and we'll try it again.

lpl/nc
 
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